CFHCAdministrator
()
Wed Aug 07 2002 08:56 PM
The Return of Bertha

Bertha was reclassified as a tropical depression and looks good already, as it wanders slowly south into the gulf. This is a quick update letting everyone know in the NW gulf to watch out on this system. It's still moving very slowly.

Cristobal looks like it finally took the hint and is moving away.

More later...

NASA GHCC Interactive Satellite images at:
North Atlantic Visible (Daytime Only), Infrared, Water Vapor

Some forecast models:
NGM, AVN, MRF, ETA ECMWF

DoD Weather Models (NOGAPS, AVN, MRF)
AVN, ECMWF, GFDL, MM5, NOGAPS, UKMET

Other commentary at Mike Anderson's East Coast Triopical Weather Center, Accuweather's Joe Bastardi, Hurricane City, Gary Gray's Millennium Weather, Barometer Bob's Hurricane Hollow, Snonut, Ed Dunham in our Storm Forum Even more on the links page.

- [mac]


Rickoshade
(Registered User)
Wed Aug 07 2002 09:07 PM
Re: The Return of Bertha

http://www.ssd.noaa.gov/PS/TROP/DATA/RT/gmex-vis-loop.html

check this post...if she's headed west, I am drunk!....she is heading deeper and deeper south....get ready...it'll be a ts by 6:00....and a hurricane?...by 11:00, and a category 3 in 36 hours...go babeeeee


Unregistered User
(Unregistered)
Wed Aug 07 2002 09:16 PM
Re: The Return of Bertha

My, was I surprised to see this tenacious little swirl make it this afternoon...

Upper level conditions aren't bad, with weak to moderate easterly shear, and SSTs are quite warm. It will be interesting to see what Bertha does (or doesn't) do in her borrowed time over Gulf.


greg-kfdmtv
(Meteorologist)
Wed Aug 07 2002 10:23 PM
Bertha Very Weak

Latest satellite pictures show that an upper level low is moving into Bertha from the east and is disrupting the circulation. In fact, radar out of Galveston and Lake Charles show that the center is basically impossible to find with the main rotation with the upper low.

The upper low will likely continue to be the dominate player with Bertha. It will be interesting tonight to see if the upper level low works to the surface.

Greg Bostwick
Chief Meteorologist
KFDM-TV Beaumont, Texas


ShawnS
(Storm Tracker)
Wed Aug 07 2002 10:46 PM
Re: Bertha Very Weak

Where is all this firing up of Bertha that I've been reading about...HAHAHA! I don't see any deep convection what so ever. The sun is shining here in Houston right now. It doesn't really matter what she does now because we will not see much rain out of her. The rain is what we really needed around here.

ShawnS
(Storm Tracker)
Wed Aug 07 2002 11:31 PM
Re: Bertha Very Weak

Why isn't there anyone on here now "beefing up" Bertha? I'll say it again, SHE"S A GONER! We only have a 40% chance of rain tomorrow: that should say something about what the weather guys here think of her.We've gotton more rain out of sea breeze fronts than what we will get from Bertha.I don't think that anything will happen with the "left overs" from Chris.,either. Well, the excitement was nice while it lasted, but it is pretty much over with now.

ShawnS
(Storm Tracker)
Thu Aug 08 2002 12:14 AM
Re: Bertha Very Weak

Boy, I guess this is going to be my board tonight. GO ASTROS!!!

ShawnS
(Storm Tracker)
Thu Aug 08 2002 01:24 AM
Re: Bertha Very Weak

Hey,Shawn, how's it going? Pretty good, thanks for asking. What do you think about Bertha? WHO??? Bertha, you know that thing in the gulf. Oh, the thing that SHOULD be downgraded again at the new advisory but won't be. By the way, what's the score of the Astros game? I think it's 3 to 1 Astros in the 5th right now. Talk to you later, dude.

Unregistered User
(Unregistered)
Thu Aug 08 2002 01:28 AM
Nothing personal Shawn

but I think you might be suffering from tropical cyclonic post traumatic stress syndrome... hehe

ShawnS
(Storm Tracker)
Thu Aug 08 2002 01:32 AM
Re: Nothing personal Shawn

NO, I'm just trying to see how stupid I have to get to get someone to post on here. This site was on fire just earlier this afternoon, but now it's like it is the middle of winter. I just like it when there are posts to read.

Unregistered User
(Unregistered)
Thu Aug 08 2002 01:35 AM
Re: Nothing personal Shawn

actually it might be more of a tropical cyclonic (and lack thereof) generic traumatic stress syndrome... a very dangerous condition indeed.... early symptoms include posting to yourself on hurricane forum board... might want to consider professional help

Unregistered User
(Unregistered)
Thu Aug 08 2002 01:35 AM
Re: Nothing personal Shawn

Everyone is Stumped! They just don't know what to say

ShawnS
(Storm Tracker)
Thu Aug 08 2002 01:41 AM
Re: Nothing personal Shawn

It shouldn't be that big of a surprise considering this is kind of what we went through last year. As fast as we thought something would really get going, it went "poof". I'm not insane, I'm just curious to know what other people's thoughts are on why this keeps happening.

Unregistered User
(Unregistered)
Thu Aug 08 2002 01:44 AM
Re: Nothing personal Shawn

Shawn the Chat room is kicking right now.

ShawnS
(Storm Tracker)
Thu Aug 08 2002 01:48 AM
Re: Nothing personal Shawn

I don't do chat rooms

Robert
(Weather Analyst)
Thu Aug 08 2002 05:02 AM
Re: Nothing personal Shawn

Any one read the 11:00 o Clock discussion. South West movment, they are talking of possibly bailing on the models and doing it for them selfs.

Robert
(Weather Analyst)
Thu Aug 08 2002 05:18 AM
Re: Nothing personal Shawn

Can Anyone else get on to the nasa satellite website, it always goes down when a storm is near. I think i see the same little swirl i saw with arthur before he developed in the gulf, right over the ne Bahamas with Cristobal????

Larry
(Weather Watcher)
Thu Aug 08 2002 10:52 AM
CRISTOBAL Left Behind?

As Robert noted last night, the 5 am discussion also talks of discord between the models. They now assume Cristobal will be picked up by a trailing trough and move slowly east in a weak steering flow. The discussion then admits "CONFIDENCE IN THIS FORECAST TRACK IS NOT
HIGH."
What are everyone's thoughts? The system doesn't look healthy at all now, but what if it survives another day or so?
Joe Bastardi still thinks the patterns are favorable for development near Florida at the end of the week.



Unregistered User
(Unregistered)
Thu Aug 08 2002 11:33 AM
Re: The Return of Bertha

Christobal is getting left behind. Need to watch this as if it stays put he could get under the influence of high pressure building in. This could force him westward as shear relaxes later on tonight or tomorrow. east coast should montior this one this weekend. Cheers!! Steve H. Even if he gets yanked, check out the blowup of convection north of Puerto Rico. It's growing this morning.

Unregistered User
(Unregistered)
Thu Aug 08 2002 01:18 PM
Re: The Return of Bertha

Wake up everybody. Take a look at the area North of PR.


Unregistered User
(Unregistered)
Thu Aug 08 2002 01:28 PM
Re: The Return of Bertha

Saw that too cane man. Even if Chris departs, this area will have a shot at moving west and developing. Cheers!! SteveH.

ShawnS
(Storm Tracker)
Thu Aug 08 2002 01:34 PM
Re: The Return of Bertha

How far west could the area north of P.R. get before recurving. Are we talking east coast problem or a gulf problem?

Unregistered User
(Unregistered)
Thu Aug 08 2002 01:37 PM
Re: The Return of Bertha

Yes Indeed it will Steve. Went over and read Joe B. post this morning interesting read. Talks about this system and also about closer developments to US this year. Presumably west of 65. Doesn't sound like he will really lower his #'s either. In fact, get the feeling we may be in for more landfalls. I'm really beginning to think that the US coast will suffer at least 1, if not 2, cat. 4 or higher storms this year.

Unregistered User
(Unregistered)
Thu Aug 08 2002 01:43 PM
Re: The Return of Bertha

Shawn, From the way the pattern seems to be shaping up, it looks like all of east coast and gulf coast needs to be especially alert for more landfall potential this year. Too early to tell which way PR system will head. Although, I thnk if it develops it has a better than even chance of making landfall somewhere.

Unregistered User
(Unregistered)
Thu Aug 08 2002 01:47 PM
Re: The Return of Bertha

Can someone post a web site to check out Puerto Rico? I'm not at home and don't have my weather links available.


ShawnS
(Storm Tracker)
Thu Aug 08 2002 01:52 PM
Re: The Return of Bertha

I just know in past years that systems that are located where this system is normally start to recurve and then are a threat to the east coast and not the gulf. If that high pressure builds in,though, it seems like it may want to push it more towards the gulf. I just don't know enough about these systems yet to really take an educated guess at what it might do. I have noticed the blow up with Bertha this morning. It almost looks like she is trying to reform her center further and further south of where it has been. I'm starting to wonder if any of Texas is going to see any rain from her. The way it is going, it could be Mexico that gets all the rain...hahaha.

Unregistered User
(Unregistered)
Thu Aug 08 2002 01:53 PM
Re: The Return of Bertha

http://www.ssd.noaa.gov/PS/TROP/DATA/RT/WATL/IR2/20.jpg

Rickoshade
(Registered User)
Thu Aug 08 2002 02:06 PM
Re: The Return of Bertha

interesting developments this morning...Bertha...as i figured..ain't done...feel like it will suprise us..don't see it going west anymore than any other direction...at 8 mph.steering currents appear weak...watching the loops makes me feel it is uncertain at best what will happen...

Joe Bastardi's site is great....recommended reading, i think...
i am with the idea we will see more activity..and a greater risk of landfalls....this is gonna be a heated up year....
if a high pressure ridge is building..that storm could be an Andrew...another tightly packed buzz-saw....

August is always good for producing big ones...
Camille....Andrew....hmmmm


Hurric
(Weather Guru)
Thu Aug 08 2002 02:41 PM
Re: The Return of Bertha

Area around south Florida seems ripe for developement over next few days.
- Cris not going anywhere quickly
- large amount of warm moisture ladden air in trough extending down from Cris to the keys
- area of disturbed weather N Puerto Rico this Morning moving into picture for the weekend
These and the fact we are getting towards mid August will sure make interesting watching over the next few days.
inserting URL and hope it works better than the mistake I made in last post:
http://lumahai.soest.hawaii.edu/cgi-bin/satview.cgi?sat=g08&satregion=bah&channel=Ui4&anim=no&size=large
Well going over to beach to look at the swells rolling in from Cris, should be a whole different picture than when I was diving in the calm beach on Tuesday.
Want some expert opinions guys, trying to learn and want as much input as possible.
Hurric


Unregistered User
(Unregistered)
Thu Aug 08 2002 02:47 PM
Cane Man

Wonder if the area of convection near PR will get sucked up by the trough, or caught by Christobal. CHris could either throw a monkey wrench in the works, or create a threatening situation. The AOI near PR is showing convection flying to it's north. Either it's outflow-type exhaust or getting pulled on. Think it's too far south to get affected by the trough. But if it tries to develop and gets near Chris, wonder if they'll both head out to sea?? Pure Conjecture...just throwing that idea out there. Cheers!! Steve H.

Unregistered User
(Unregistered)
Thu Aug 08 2002 02:58 PM
Re: Cane Man

Chris looks to be to be in the very Southern end of what is pulling out. I think it the trough will be broke down soon and looks like to me there will be ridging in place. Could be wrong but my humble observation. Could get interesting this weekend

Steve
(Senior Storm Chaser)
Thu Aug 08 2002 03:09 PM
Musings...

Bertha began her comeback around midnight as was her trend over most of the last few days. I don't know how much rain moves inland or where it goes in. If history is with Bertha's down-pulse, convection should again weaken around 12-1pm today. However, due to the proximity of her to the Coast, I wouldn't guarantee anything.

Christobal is an enigma. He should have cruised on out to sea but still doesn't want to.

If you believe in Joe Bastardi, Apalachacola to Corpus Christi is basically out of the woods for the rest of the tropical season.

1) He had originally given a 1/1.7 from Apalachacola to Boothville (1 being landfalls, 1.7 being intensity rating). We had the 1/1 already in the landfall of Bertha. That leaves a 0.7 or potential influence from a tropical storm (or less) that doesn't make landfall in this range.

2) Boothville to Corpus Christi is a 1/1. This factors 1 landfalling tropical storm. If Bertha is a tropical storm and actually makes landfall in and around this area, that's a wrap. In any event, the 1 representing tropical storm conditions will have been satisfied leaving a classified landfall with less than tropical storm conditions remaining for the area.

IMHO, Joe has grossly underestimated the potential for the entire coast from Apalachacola to Corpus. I would expect there will be 2-3 more landfalls before the season is up in this area unless conditions change so dramatically that the Gulf closes up until 2003. Any thoughts?

Steve


ShawnS
(Storm Tracker)
Thu Aug 08 2002 03:15 PM
Re: Musings...

Question. Looking at the visible loop of Bertha and noticed there seems to be some sort of circulation just to the northwest of her inland over Texas. I wonder if this is the upper low that was out in the gulf with her yesterday or could it be something else. While looking at the loop I also noticed that whatever it is it is starting to pull some of Bertha's moisture straight north. My question is this: could this feature inland start to pull Bertha back to the north because of her being on the southeast side of it?

SirCane
(Storm Tracker)
Thu Aug 08 2002 03:46 PM
North of PR looks very interesting......

We're going to really have to watch this one. I have a feeling we could see a big one form out of this. (CAT 3-4)

Unregistered User
(Unregistered)
Thu Aug 08 2002 03:51 PM
Re: Musings...

Shawn, are my eyes decieving me or did bertha stall just off shore. Look, at the corpus long range radar loop. That is interesting. You may have a valid point!

Steve
(Senior Storm Chaser)
Thu Aug 08 2002 03:55 PM
Hey Sir...

If the storm intensifies, I would expect landfall in an odd section for landfalls - St. Aug to Charleston. Could be interesting. Might just hang around the coast and head north though in time.

Steve


Unregistered User
(Unregistered)
Thu Aug 08 2002 04:08 PM
North of PR?

Hmm, what an enigma of tropical messes:

Seems like Bertha will go back to TS status,move further s than expected, get stronger than expected before landfall, most likely in Tx.

Chris- well, will slowly lift out, with possibility it will stall again first. May intensify---or shear out!

Area N of PR- Hey HF, Ed or whoever--whats up with that..looks interesting/ominous. I agree---will it lift out or go west?

IHS,

Bill


ShawnS
(Storm Tracker)
Thu Aug 08 2002 04:19 PM
Re: Musings...

If you go by what the NHC says then it hasn't stalled or slowed down at all. Heck, they don't even mention anything about how the feature over land could effect Bertha.

Unregistered User
(Unregistered)
Thu Aug 08 2002 05:06 PM
If Chris heads NE...

..he's gonna take that disturbance north of PR with him. Look at the flow to the NW of the disturbance...north. So if Chris heads NE this convection will get pulled up with the trough and into the intensifying Chris as it heads into the maritimes. what a waste. That's what I'm thinking. And it will be another week or two for any action in the Atlantic to watch. It's the pessimists hours again. Jeers!! Steve H.

Unregistered User
(Unregistered)
Thu Aug 08 2002 05:14 PM
Re: If Chris heads NE...

Yeah Steve, you are probably right. Looks like laeding edge of wave is already being pulled Northward. And system seems to be extending outward instead of condensing. I didn't think it would start to be influenced this soon and figured the trough wouldn't be that influencual in next day or 2. Wait and see I guess.

Hurric
(Weather Guru)
Thu Aug 08 2002 05:25 PM
Re: If Chris heads NE...

Yes, It does look like unorganized blob N Puerto Rico is being tugged towards north.
Question: how do you recognize a trough split?
Seems its already happened and someone is pointing it out before I recognize it. Thinking it has a lot to do with experience and anticipating it happening. comments anyone
Hurric


ShawnS
(Storm Tracker)
Thu Aug 08 2002 05:37 PM
Re: If Chris heads NE...

Bertha is getting torn apart,too! Looks like instead of maybe having a busy weekend in the tropics, we may be looking at a dull one. It's amazing how fast the tide can turn!

Steve
(Senior Storm Chaser)
Thu Aug 08 2002 06:15 PM
Trof Splits...

They occur at all levels of the atmosphere, but they are most easily viewed with Water Vapor imagry. A trof will come south, the nose elongates, a ridge will usually cut through the trof which then backs off SW then finally west. It's an atmospheric pheonomon that most likely occurs in non El Nino years. Just watch the 'nose' of any trof that comes pretty far south for a day or two and you'll see the split. Some of the energy will take off to the NE, the rest backs SW.

Steve


Unregistered User
(Unregistered)
Thu Aug 08 2002 06:16 PM
Seems that Bertha has stalled..

a look at the Corpus radar loop seems to show that Bertha has stalled ESE of Corpus Christi.

http://www.srh.noaa.gov/radar/loop/DS.p19r0/si.kcrp.shtml

What do you think ?


ShawnS
(Storm Tracker)
Thu Aug 08 2002 07:20 PM
Re: Seems that Bertha has stalled..

Can someone explain what is happening just off the LA coast?

Unregistered User
(Unregistered)
Thu Aug 08 2002 07:30 PM
Re: Seems that Bertha has stalled..

Shuan, that is nothing. Well. it was acutally a feeder band that broke of Chris and merged with the cold front which produced record rainfall here in Tampa yesterday. We received 2.50 inches in just 55 minutes. Amazing.

Unregistered User
(Unregistered)
Thu Aug 08 2002 07:44 PM
Re: If Chris heads NE...

Could it be that monster wave around 20W? The loop shows it looking better during the last few hours. Just that it's too close to the ITCZ.

Unregistered User
(Unregistered)
Thu Aug 08 2002 07:47 PM
Re: The Return of Bertha

looks like front could leave chris center behind. and i think disturbance n. of p.r. wont get pulled north. waves are starting to get stonger off africa.

Unregistered User
(Unregistered)
Thu Aug 08 2002 07:56 PM
Re: The Return of Bertha

wave n. of p.r.is becoming better organized, not getting picked up. watch it close next few days.

jth
(Storm Tracker)
Thu Aug 08 2002 09:05 PM
Re: The Return of Bertha

check out the latest GFDL run. It picks up two more systems. It has a low forming in the FL Straits in about 90 hrs. and moving into the central gulf. Also, it picks up what I think is the area North of PR and forms circulation there as well.

wxman007
(Meteorologist)
Thu Aug 08 2002 09:14 PM
Random thoughts...

1) Bertha...looks more impressive that it really is...recon had a tough time finding anything really there. Goes to show, that no matter HOW much sat analysis you do, there is NO subsitiute for direct observations. Should be a minimal rainmaker for portions of S TX.

2) Cristobal - not much to say here either...strong pressure rises are signalling it's transition to extratropical status...NHC is discontinuing advisories, with good reason.

3) Wave N of PR - I'm really unimpressed with this. Looked pretty good this morning, really gone downhill this afternoon, and looks to be headed off to the north in Cristobal's wake. Not too concerned about this.

4) Seasonal predictions - Not a big believer in them anyway for one simple reason...it doesn't address the REAL question, will there be a US landfall, and where? 14 storms that are fish spinners don't mean anything to the vast majority of residents of the US. But, every time Dr Gray or NOAA adjust the forecast, the media jumps all over it. My station, just prior to my weathercast, announced Dr Gray's revision and tossed to me and said "Jason, looks like we don't have much to worry about, huh?"...took 1 of my 3 minutes shooting THAT down!

Any way, I'll get off my soapbox now.


Unregistered User
(Unregistered)
Thu Aug 08 2002 10:34 PM
Re: Random thoughts...

Jason,

I highly agree with your comments. The critical question is always will there be a landfall, and if so, where, when, and how intense. I can't tell you much about the overall 1996 hurricane season; I can tell you lots about Fran and having a 4' diameter oak tree in my living room.....

Always good to see your posts!

Larry






57497479
(Weather Master)
Fri Aug 09 2002 02:54 AM
Re: Random thoughts...

Just looked at the IR loop in the Caribbean, is there a little spin at the end of the loop or are my eyes deceiving me?

QUESTION?. What are the European models that Joe B. keeps referring to?
He seems to be pretty adamant regarding Florida this weekend. The GFDL is also trying to get something cooking off the east coast of fl. T.Leap


Hurric
(Weather Guru)
Fri Aug 09 2002 02:57 AM
Re: Trof Splits...

Thanks for the info on Trof Splits Steve.
Looking at what's left of area north of Puerto Rico.
At end of loop appears to be a circulation.
I sill think the next few days are going to be interesting.
Hurric


Ed DunhamAdministrator
(Former Meteorologist & CFHC Forum Moderator (Ed Passed Away on May 14, 2017))
Fri Aug 09 2002 02:58 AM
Random replies

Hi Jason:
1) Agree
2) Agree
3) Agree

4) Ah, ya knew it was comin' - Disagree - but only from a scientific point of view. When you go on-air (except for a lost minute to correct the Anchor) you make a dedicated effort to give the best forecast that you possibly can. Every forecast can become a challenge - and its a challenge because this science is so new and so much remains to be learned. Why does one little tropical wave blossom into a Cat IV while another in what seem to be the same conditions does nothing? Obvious answer - the conditions are not the same, but we don't know enough about the atmospherics to always tell the difference. Okay, so what does all of this have to do with the seasonal numbers game? Well, when NOAA or Dr Gray or anyone else develops such a forecast, they do so with the same scientific intensity (or at least I hope that they do) that we do when we ponder the weekend outlook. When the numbers fail, it forces Gray and others to attempt to expand the science and improve the forecast - doesn't always work, but sometimes we get lucky and learn something new. When the weekend outlook fails I probably spend more time in trying to figure out why it didn't pan out than I do in actually making the forecast, but I just chalk that up to trying to learn more so that the forecast will fail less (I keep hoping that someday it might actually happen). But I certainly agree that the numbers mean nothing if you can't improve the forecast enough to tell if or where or when the storm will make landfall.

5) Tiny wave - 10N 46W - could get interesting in a couple of days (here we go again - another busted forecast )
Cheers,
ED

Ed Dunham
Chief Meteorologist
The Boeing Company


wxman007
(Meteorologist)
Fri Aug 09 2002 03:13 AM
Re: Random replies

Wellll....

I'm not anti-seasonal forecast per se...I just have very little use for them...and in my "little pond" they are usually more of a hindrance than a help. I have a pretty small chunk of this area that I am responsible for...and when these forecasts are released for public edification and have, realistically, no true value to my forecast process, and actually create false perceptions on my clients (viewers) they can be a significant hindrance. I'm sure they are good for someone, and that they ARE helping advance the science, they don't do me or most operational forecasters a whole lot of good...indeed, they can be harmful in creating a level or hysteria, or a false sense of security. (I'm not using observed or model data that really doesn't relate to my forecast! )

That is really my problem with these forecasts...not the forecasts themselves, but the interpretation of them, as to what they really mean to Joe Six-pack....which truthfully isn't much.

If Dr. Gray had made a forecast for 4 Hurricanes in 1992, most of the public would have written off the year as a very slow one...and in a Basin-wide sense, that would be correct...but not to residents of S FL or S LA.

However, we agree more than we disagree!

(Feeling better?)


Ed DunhamAdministrator
(Former Meteorologist & CFHC Forum Moderator (Ed Passed Away on May 14, 2017))
Fri Aug 09 2002 03:37 AM
Re: Random replies

Good points - and yep, I'm feeling better (can't you tell). A little while back I made the point that you never see seasonal numbers like 4 or 5 or 6, yet those seasons happen just as often as 12 or 13 or 14 - so, in my view, seasonal predictions still have a long way to go. If I worked for an insurance company I'd probably have a different viewpoint

Cheers,
ED


Unregistered User
(Unregistered)
Fri Aug 09 2002 09:25 AM
Re: Random replies

Interesting discourse there guys, and I agree. What I don't agree with is Dr. Gray's revised forecast nor NOAA's revisions which came out immediately following Gray's as if somehow his reduction in the number of storms demanded a similar response from the NOAA. If indeed the season's activity is already 1/3 or 3/7 complete, it's going to be "mostly" a pretty boring storm season. 9 named storms? 7-10 named storms? How can this be? Oh yeah - it's the MODERATE EL NINO! Well I don't see it. I check out the SST anomolies every day, and to my untrained eye, there's hardly a menacing El Nino out there to stunt the growth of or shear storms this year.

Anyway it's apparent to me that we're going to have some excitement on this side of the Atlantic no matter how many storms eventually become classified. I'm glad Ed mentioned 10/46, because the first site I went to after I checked on some Saints news, was the Goes 8. There is a tiny bit of convection near 10-50 (wave extending north of 20) which looks quite a bit like the blow-up we saw yesterday north of PR did a few days ago.

This is what I can see on the WV and IR this morning: There is convection @ 21/80 just east of the nose end of the trof south of Cuba which appears to be a tropical wave sandwiched between an ULL centered over Haiti to the east and a splitting trof to the NW. There also appears to be mid-level circulation around 78/24 (northern and central Bahamas) being aided by some upper divergence which seems to be some energy left over from the front and/or Christobal. That environment looks fairly hostile and confused right now, but most of the tropical energy seems to be in a box between 15, 25, 75 and 85. It's anyone's guess as to whether conditions become more favorable in the next 2-4 days down there, but that's where the energy is right now. And if something was to form in our hemisphere in the near-term, it's going to be from some of this energy. Things should be apparent (one way or the other) by Sunday.

Steve


Unregistered User
(Unregistered)
Fri Aug 09 2002 09:35 AM
One more thing...

I had to go against Dr. Bill Gray and NOAA since I've already gone against Dr. Gary Gray and Joe Bastardi. Just so there is no mistake, here's the recap:

1) I disagreed with Gary Gray's main premise from his forecast that storms this year were going to be mostly passing east of Cape Hatteras. I foresaw a much stronger ridge position with a westerly reach further than he predicted.

2) I disagree with Bastardi's landfall forecast because I, in no way, think the season is over from SE LA to Appalachacola. According to Joe, we've already gotten our tropical storm up here with the landfall of Bertha in St. Tammany Parish, LA. (His forecast was 1 landfall, 1.7 intensity from Boothville to Apalachacola. We've alredy had 1/1 and are only wating for the .7 according to him). What is interesting in his forecast is that he repeatedly refers to the 1985 season. We'll end up somewhere between 3/6 and 4/7 if '85 is a true analog. BTW, I sent Ken Reeves an e-mail for Point Counterpoint that I'm hoping he's going to use and/or call Joe on. It's something that I think Joe needs to address in light of the fact that he's already said he's not revising his forecast in his 8/12 (next Monday) re-issue.

So I guess I'm a lone-wolf in all of this, but I don't care. I said 13/8/3, and I'm sticking to it. The only way we don't approach these types of numbers is if the season suddenly comes to a screetching halt in mid-September.

Thanks for the rant time.

Steve


Unregistered User
(Unregistered)
Fri Aug 09 2002 12:35 PM
Re: Random thoughts...

STill a low level swirl around 30/73 hmmm. Cheers!!

ShawnS
(Storm Tracker)
Fri Aug 09 2002 01:23 PM
Waiting!

Well, guys, it looks like we have a lull in the action. I'm not very confident of development over the weekend. I don't really see anything that perks my interest right now that I would suspect development out of.I guess conditions are still prime in the gulf for something to come along and pop, but for some reason I just don't see it happening at this moment. Any thoughts?

Unregistered User
(Unregistered)
Fri Aug 09 2002 03:03 PM
Re: One more thing...

I notice that for the first time in ages there is moisture south of Cuba, thanks to the front that finally found a way to grab cristobal. Just interesting to see, didn't say it would develop into anything. And, seems the wave at the tail end of the trough is trying to battle its way westward into the bahamas towards florida. Does it have a chance?

Interesting board you have, different.


Steve
(Senior Storm Chaser)
Fri Aug 09 2002 03:12 PM
Shawn

Watch 25.5 85.8. If anything's happening in the Gulf in the near term, that's where it's gonna be. Only AVN forecasts a closed 1010 south of the LA coast by Monday. Joe B. said in his discussion today that the European takes an impulse along the old front west (or something like that) early next week. So if anyone's got any action in the near-term (5-7 days) besides Florida, it's probably going to be Texas. But I don't really see anything of consequence at this time.

Steve


ShawnS
(Storm Tracker)
Fri Aug 09 2002 06:51 PM
Maybe???

Keep an eye on the central gulf!

Unregistered User
(Unregistered)
Fri Aug 09 2002 10:18 PM
Re: Maybe???

Shawn, this morning your post said you didn't think anything was about to happen...then, this afternoon your latest post says keep your eyes on the central gulf....what's changed? is there something out there?

wxman007
(Meteorologist)
Fri Aug 09 2002 11:00 PM
Well...

Not Shawn, but I'll comment...

The AVN, Eta, and UKMET have solutions over the last run or two for development of tropical lows near the CONUS over the weekend/early next week. The AVN develops a closed surface low in the next 24 hrs about 400 miles south of Mobile and tracks it NW over the weekend with a inland motion near Lake Charles early next week (this was the 12z run....the 18z run is similiar with a slightly more westward solution). The Eta is slower, developing the low Sunday, and moving more east...towards the Florida Panhandle (however, the actual "landfall" is out of the model's valid period). The UKMET develops closed lows in the Bahamas (tracking north towards the Carolinas) and in the Central Gulf, with a somewhat intermediate solution between the AVN and Eta.

Pretty interesting stuff...we'll have to see what happens.


ShawnS
(Storm Tracker)
Fri Aug 09 2002 11:01 PM
Re: Maybe???

I still don't think anything will happen, but if it does it might be from the cluster of storms that is in the southeastern to central gulf. Just because I say to keep an eye on something does not mean I automatically think it will develop. It just means it is worth watching through the weekend. The first thing it needs to do is show that it can hold its convection for at least 24 hrs. which is what all of the systems so far this season have had trouble doing.

Unregistered User
(Unregistered)
Sat Aug 10 2002 01:26 AM
Hey Jason...

If the UK Met turns out to be right, we will have witnessed a rare phenominon. This would be the second straight time that two systems formed in relatively similar places and from the same system at more-or-less the same time. For Bertha and Christobal, it was a surface trof that didn't make it that far offshore. This trof went further, but if it verifies, will also spawn twins.

If there is a danger from this setup, I think the greatest threat lies for the Atlantic coast between FL and NC. If something were to develop and hang out there for a few days, the steering would almost guarantee a US East Coast landfall. I guess we'll see what happens. But if anything does, remember where you saw it

Steve


ShawnS
(Storm Tracker)
Sat Aug 10 2002 02:35 AM
Re: Hey Jason...

The main reason why I don't think anything will happen is because the models say it will.I've gotton to the point now to where I will believe the opposite of what the models are predicting. I know I'm not the only one that feels this way.They have, for the most part, done a horrible job last year and so far this year with getting a handle on these systems. Until I see an improvement in the accuracy of the models I will personally take them with a grain of salt.

Unregistered User
(Unregistered)
Sat Aug 10 2002 03:57 AM
Re: Hey Jason...

JK,

Tony Cristaldi said to say 'hey' and for you to drop him a line.

Steve


wxman007
(Meteorologist)
Sat Aug 10 2002 12:14 PM
Re: Hey Jason...

Will do...on his NOAA e-mail addy...I have misplaced his personal one.



Unregistered User
(Unregistered)
Sat Aug 10 2002 12:45 PM
Re: Hey Jason...

His NOAA address? No wonder he defended the NOAA's revised forecast in a recent discussion. The whole time I was trashing it, he kept insisting it was a good forecast. LOL.

Areas to watch the next 2 days would be the NW Carib. and Central Gulf. RUC and AVN are the most bullish on the Central Gulf, but develop nothing of any real consequence. However, the convection south of Cuba near Grand Cayman associated with a wnw moving tropical wave could add some energy to the Gulf mix.

Steve


Unregistered User
(Unregistered)
Sat Aug 10 2002 06:33 PM
Re: Random thoughts...

i know there have been a lot of big "blobs" off Africa this year that have done nothing but the one exiting now is teh biggest I have seen and has a bit more northernness to it than the other too low latitude ones.

who knows. some of the other itz lows/waves are starting to hold thier convection as well .

Troy(can never rememebr my loggin)


Unregistered User
(Unregistered)
Sat Aug 10 2002 09:04 PM
Re: Random thoughts...

WWWHHHAAATTT 'THA H____ is that thing coming out of Africa? It certainly looks scary...

Unregistered User
(Unregistered)
Sat Aug 10 2002 09:11 PM
Re: The Return of Bertha

Im new here i am 15 living in gulf breeze i love tropical weather but am not the best at forecasting. I read all your post cause i cant stand listening the weather channel or listen to nhc cuz they is all lazy and always just shrug things off. but i enjoy reading all your post. last thing i just moved here from montgomery and have never been in a huriicane but i kinda want that expirence but with out all the losses that come along with hurricanes like deaths maybe a small cat 2 or so just for a begginers expirence. well isnt much happening right now but things might get interesting i hope they do before school start monday. and i am not saying i want a hurricane to hit here i just saying i want to expirence one sometimee i had to say that so none of ya'll jump on my back about it

Bruce
(Weather Guru)
Sat Aug 10 2002 09:19 PM
Re: Random thoughts...

That wave could be the "ONE" intense hurricane that Dr. Gray states we will have this year.

Unregistered User
(Unregistered)
Sat Aug 10 2002 09:33 PM
Re: Random thoughts...

Where is everyone? Pressures in the central Gulf of Mexico have fallen about 3 mbs in the past three hours--interesting.

Unregistered User
(Unregistered)
Sat Aug 10 2002 10:28 PM
Re: Random thoughts...

Hey Gulf Breeze,

You'll catch no flack from me. I want to ride a Cat-2 also. Welcome to the board. Register so you can get a good alias name.

Wassup Carl? I was watching the buoys this morning, and it was nothing big. How does the 3mb relate to yesterday afternoon's pressure falls? Because often in the afternoon, the pressure drops anyway. But the Gulf is looking much more active. If anything develops tomorrow, I'd guess somewhere between Lafayette and Galveston would be ground zero.

Steve


Hurric
(Weather Guru)
Sat Aug 10 2002 10:32 PM
Re: Random thoughts...

AnonymousCarl,
Please share the source of your info on falling pressures in midGOM. Looking at Central GOM pic and looks like a run of the mill big blob so far. Still things can change quickly this time of year.
http://www.goes.noaa.gov/HURRLOOPS/huloopvs.html
Hurric


Unregistered User
(Unregistered)
Sat Aug 10 2002 10:33 PM
Re: Random thoughts...

west wind in the gulf

Unregistered User
(Unregistered)
Sat Aug 10 2002 10:36 PM
Re: Random thoughts...

42001 Mid-Gulf dropped 5mb last hour. That's a pretty steep drop.

Steve


Unregistered User
(Unregistered)
Sat Aug 10 2002 10:40 PM
Re: Random thoughts...

Hurric,

Go to the NDBC and check out the Mid-Gulf buoy.

http://seaboard.ndbc.noaa.gov/index.shtml

Steve


Unregistered User
(Unregistered)
Sat Aug 10 2002 10:42 PM
Re: Random thoughts...

Hey Steve,
24 hour pressure falls are only a mb or so. What caught my attention was the pressure at the mid-gulf buoy fell from 29.98 to 29.93 in 1 hour this afternoon. We'll see what happens--btw has it been as windy today in N.O. as its been here in Baton Rouge?


Unregistered User
(Unregistered)
Sat Aug 10 2002 10:43 PM
Re: Random thoughts...

42001 west. 40003 ese. at 30 kts. north of there east/north/east. game time everyone get up.

Unregistered User
(Unregistered)
Sat Aug 10 2002 10:48 PM
Re: Random thoughts...

42001 w 29.93 42041 ene at 21 40003 ese at 30 kts. game time everone get up.

ShawnS
(Storm Tracker)
Sat Aug 10 2002 10:53 PM
Re: Random thoughts...

I think you all are getting a little carried away with this...hahaha. It will have to show me alot more than this before I will jump on the band wagon. This is nothing more than a bunch of storms with no organization that will more than likely stay that way until it is too late for anything to develop because it will be too close to land. Just my opinion.

Unregistered User
(Unregistered)
Sat Aug 10 2002 11:02 PM
Re: Random thoughts...

Yeah. Pretty breezy and hot here today. Just like yesterday, daytime East Wiinds 12-18 and a little gustier.

ShawnS,

I said yesterday either on here on HurricaneHollow/US Weatherwatchers (I think here) that Sunday was the day to watch. None of the models have done anything major, but a TD or minimal tropical storm is not out of the question. And if something happens, this is your neck of the woods. With the high nosing in, I doubt anything could just head north. It would have to be NW, WNW or W the way it looks RIGHT NOW. Of course what do I know except the Saints would be mauling the Texans tonight if this wasn't pre-season.

Steve


ShawnS
(Storm Tracker)
Sat Aug 10 2002 11:16 PM
Re: Random thoughts...

First of all, I'm NOT a Texans fan. In fact,even though I know about pro football, my passion is COLLEGE FOOTBALL! I'm a huge SOONER FAN! The problem is that we seem to have gotton the "kiss of death" this year because we are picked by SI to be #1 and worst of all, we are on the cover of the college football preview issue that just came out. Anyway, my problem with this situation is that, at best, I see it as being just another waste of a name ( this is also how Joe B. refers to this type of situation). The remains of Bertha that came ashore down around Corpus only gave them about an inch of rain. Heck, we get more than that from just an afternoon shower around here. If anything is going to develop than at least let it be worth putting a name on it. I just think that IF anything does happen, it will be one of those where we will sit back afterwards and scratch our heads and wonder why this one didn't get going,either.

57497479
(Weather Master)
Sat Aug 10 2002 11:29 PM
Re: Random thoughts...

The GFDL is still hinting on taking at least a TD N. around the Florida panhandle in apx. 60hrs.

The wave comming off of Africia looks impressive. The big question is, can it hold together. As mentioned in other previous post, the weather pattern is setting up. It would appear that we may have more systems forming on our back door. If the CapeVerde season doesn't get kicking in the next couple of weeks, I really feel that we will have more than average land falling systems this year. T. Leap


ShawnS
(Storm Tracker)
Sun Aug 11 2002 01:36 AM
Re: Random thoughts...

Activity in the gulf is falling apart just like all the systems before it have done. Nothing significant will come from it.

Bruce
(Weather Guru)
Sun Aug 11 2002 01:49 AM
Re: Random thoughts...

Looks like the low at 32W is getting some convection trying to form around the center.

Unregistered User
(Unregistered)
Sun Aug 11 2002 02:06 AM
Re: The Return of Bertha

If gulf makes a storm it will head north then north east as the front picks it up sorry big texas looks like ala or fl.

ShawnS
(Storm Tracker)
Sun Aug 11 2002 02:16 AM
Re: The Return of Bertha

The last I heard the front was not suppose to make it that far south. I guess, as usual, things have changed.

Bruce
(Weather Guru)
Sun Aug 11 2002 12:18 PM
Re: Random thoughts...

Looks like the area to watch in the next few days is NE of PR. Where is Colleen?

Kevin
(Weather Master)
Sun Aug 11 2002 03:05 PM
Re: Random thoughts...

There is really nothing going on that is important in the near term...but the LONG TERM concerns me. The wave currently coming off of Africa has a SQUALL LINE ahead of it...many times these types of waves move very quickly across the Atlantic...that would mean warmer waters for this one could arrive quickly. I'd watch this one closley once it gets around 45-50 west, it could develop there or soon after. Looks like a good candidate for the first Cape Verde/western Atlantic storm of the year, possibly the first hurricane. Time will tell if this one wins or loses to subsidence.

I'd like to wish a happy birthday to our newest board member here, CYCLONEYE. I heard on another board today was his birthday, so I'd like to wish him a happy one today and many more after that.

Hey, wednesday is my birthday and I'll be 15! Maybe a nice little DOLLY would be good to go along with a piece of cake and a gift!
Take care and watch the tropics carefully,
Kevin


Unregistered User
(Unregistered)
Sun Aug 11 2002 04:22 PM
Re: Random thoughts...

Agreed. A very happy birthday to Cycloneye - everyone's eye on the SW Atlantic. It surprises me that you're only 14 Kevin. You represent yourself as well or better than I do. Keep up the good work. I read all your posts.

You're right though. There's not a whole lot going on. I thought something might simmer in the NW Gulf today, but there are only some banding features and alot of rain off the LA coast in the Morgan City vicinity. The pressures throughout the Central and Western Gulf are pretty high. Most of the models want to develop something a couple hundred miles off the SE Coast and move it NNE in the next few days. There is also some convection down in the mid-Gulf, but it's just disturbed weather. I don't see a whole lot - except for some eventual showers for the Coast - down there. There is a wave moving into the islands that just started to blow up. But the Carib is pretty hostile for development. The only 3 places we can really expect to see anything of note over the next few days would be in the Gulf, off the SE Coast and in the Central-Eastern Atlantic. The only change up here is that the strong East winds are now shifting to the SE and rotating in some rain from the wave moving toward Texas.

Steve


57497479
(Weather Master)
Sun Aug 11 2002 04:44 PM
Re: Random thoughts...

I agree, it is time to start watching the w. atlantic. I also have at least one eye on the SE GOM. The buoy's are running high in this area, so I'm not going to get to excited until they start dropping and I see a spin. T.Leap

Unregistered User
(Unregistered)
Sun Aug 11 2002 06:18 PM
Re: Random thoughts...

anyone see a turning n/e gulf west of keys look close thanks.

Unregistered User
(Unregistered)
Sun Aug 11 2002 06:19 PM
Some of that nasty NW Gulf rain is moving through here now.

It's a 'big drop' thunderstorm with winds gusting to about 30mph. So the conditions weren't good enough for anything to develop tropically, but we're defintitely seeing the effects of what's just offshore. See:

http://weather.cod.edu/satellite/caribbean-ir.gif

I'd still expect to see some pretty heavy rainfall in SW LA and SE TX tomorrow if the front doesn't make it through. Look for 1-3" of rain in spots between Lafayette and Galveston. Maybe up to 2" in SE and SC LA today.

Steve


57497479
(Weather Master)
Sun Aug 11 2002 08:10 PM
Re: Some of that nasty NW Gulf rain is moving through here now.

Looks like a big blob in the NW Central gulf but just not any orginization to go along with it. Even though it's not organized that does not mean your not going to get a lot of rain and damaging winds, it will also usually affect a larger area. Don't say good-by to it until it's inland and then you have watch for a UE.

Now on the other hand, the SE GOM looks like it is holding together and I can begin to see a little spin there. I checked the buoys and ship reports and they are reporting a slight pressure drop. I think that we really need to keep an eye on this area. Any comments on this area? T. Leap


Unregistered User
(Unregistered)
Sun Aug 11 2002 08:42 PM
Re: The Return of Bertha

i have seen a spin there to the last couple of loopes but thats it anyone else see anything.

Unregistered User
(Unregistered)
Sun Aug 11 2002 09:16 PM
abc...

done vacationing. i see that nothing much has happened. watched on limited media bertha track back offshore and then fail to do anything interesting. lost track of cristobal.. which turns out to be pretty much what happened with everybody. and, of course, read the new forecast by dr. gray's bunch at colostate. not convinced.
gray has brought up some truly lazy analog years to describe the overall global picture. for one el nino doesnt look moderate at all, and for two inhibited deep tropics activity doesnt necessarily translate to what happens in the subtropics. anyhow who cares, i'm still on 12-8-4. yes i know that i only have one more tropical storm left. i hear you noaa, gray, ed dunham... but i must see this to believe.
three pathetic systems down, six or nine to go.
nothing looking particularly threatening in the basin. gulf watchers can only dream. area north of puerto rico is sort of interesting.. but doesnt look to be much of a surface feature. maybe a weak deep layer cyclone forming over subtropical waters off the mid atlantic along that old front, in spite of rising pressures. very far from getting a warm core.
and then there's the deep tropics. there is fair agreement that little will come from there this year.. this i can believe. the meatier waves havent arrived yet, neither has the subsidence or fast easterly flow left. anything from here will most likely have to work its way into the subtropics to develop. maybe a mid season storm or two will manage to squeeze through.
this coming week watch off the east coast or near puerto rico, with a lazy eye. globals dont really like anything out there and neither do i.
side note: you know in the old dukes of hazzard episodes, how it's set in north georgia but was obviously filmed in the hills outside los angeles? its starting to look like california up there.. drought is significantly worse than it is here. hardwoods are already shedding leaves, pine beetles are mangling the evergreens, and to top it all off the weeds are dying on the roadsides. a tropical system this year would be a godsend if it didnt wreck too much.
HF aikenSC 2110z11august


Bruce
(Weather Guru)
Sun Aug 11 2002 10:56 PM
Re: Random thoughts...

Area north of PR getting a littler better organized today. I think this area will produce our next storm. Time will tell.

Unregistered User
(Unregistered)
Mon Aug 12 2002 12:32 AM
Re: abc...

Welcome back! AS you said you didn't miss much. I really thought earlier today that the SE GOM would fire up but again looks like I am wrong. The caribbean may be something to watch, if the convection is still there tomorrow, who knows what might happen. T. Leap

Jason M
(Weather Watcher)
Mon Aug 12 2002 01:27 AM
Tropical Discussions Updated

FORECAST POSTED: 8/11/02/ 9:15 PM EDT


Tropical Weather Outlook:

We are closely monitoring an area of low pressure located north-northeast of Puerto Rico. The low has become slightly better organized throughout the course of the day. In addition, convection is still on the increase. Some slow development is possible over the next 48 hours. Chance of development... 2/10.


Tropical Weather Discussion:

A large area of disorganized shower and thunderstorm activity is located across the entire Gulf of Mexico. The convection over the western Gulf is in response to the interaction between an upper level disturbance rotating around high pressure centered over North Carolina and a surface trough along the Texas and Louisiana coastline. The convection should fizzle tonight and redevelop tomorrow. Further organization isn't anticipated.

The other area of convection in the eastern Gulf of Mexico is related to a stalled frontal boundary over the EGOM that extends across the Florida peninsula and into the western Atlantic. In addition, there is an upper level low located over the southeast Gulf. This area needs to be watched. However, as long as the upper low stays in place, development won't occur.

The Caribbean Sea remains quiet. In the northwest Caribbean Sea, a weak tropical wave extends from Cancun, Mexico, through Honduras and Nicaragua. This wave is lacking convection and development is not expected. In the southwest Caribbean, we were watching a low pressure system near Panama. This low is over land and should move into the EPAC. Development from this low in the Atlantic basin isn't likely.

The central and eastern Caribbean Sea is very quiet. There is a weak wave over the Windwards but the majority of convection is farther north, over the southwest Atlantic Ocean. This wave has become slightly better defined over the past six hours. In addition, convection has also been on the increase. This low will have to be monitored closely. If development were to occur over the next 48 hours, it would likely get picked up by the same trough that forced Christobal northeast. If the low were to develop later on, a more WNW track would be the most likely scenario. This is all speculation at this point.

The central Atlantic is being dominated by dry sinking air being caused by the strong Azores high. The models continue to weaken the high over the next few days, lessoning the subsidence over the area slightly.

The next system we should keep an eye on, is a wave emerging off the coast of Africa. Yesterday, a strong wind surge moved off the coast, causing a squall line to develop. This was related to the wave about to exit the coast. The squall line isn't a good sign for development. However, the wave does have a nice circulation associated with it. Both the AVN and MRF (GFS) develop this wave once it reaches about 45W. Development seems unlikely but it does bear watching as we are getting to the point to where we need to keep a close eye on this region.

FORECASTER: Jason Moreland, TWWFT



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DISCLAIMER: THIS IS NOT AN OFFICIAL FORECAST. PLEASE LISTEN TO YOUR LOCAL NEWS OR THE NATIONAL HURRICANE CENTER FOR THE LATEST INFORMATION.

http://www.tropicalweatherwatchers.com


Unregistered User
(Unregistered)
Mon Aug 12 2002 01:29 AM
Re: The Return of Bertha

NRL has a new invest, looks like 90L, but there is no pics up yet, which area of convection do you all think it is ?

Unregistered User
(Unregistered)
Mon Aug 12 2002 02:37 AM
atlantic swirl

hmm.. i'll go take a look. bet its the little system north of puerto rico.
HanKFranK 0234z12august


Unregistered User
(Unregistered)
Mon Aug 12 2002 02:44 AM
atlantic swirl 2

yep. 90L.. invest #10. initialized at 25kt/1014mb, 21.8N,64.0W. didnt see much in this feature when i brushed up on things earlier. honestly thought it was a mid or upper feature by signature. funny thing is, the nhc isnt mentioning it in their outlook at all. can tell it is getting NW shear, but not moving quickly, so that shouldnt be a big problem. as for whether things will improve, got to go look at models and shear analyses.. movement probably being affected by the post frontal/upper low up to the north off hatteras.
by the way i've noticed the earlier mentioned mrf (or gfs now) storm that comes out of the cape verde wave alley next week. not one to believe in such things developing there based on how that part of the basin looks.. but not against the wave being energetic enough to maybe consolidate later. just have to watch and see what gets through.
HF 0243z12august


Unregistered User
(Unregistered)
Mon Aug 12 2002 03:49 AM
atlantic swirl 3

90L.. invest 10. don't see much to suggest a closed low with this system. convection is weaker than earlier but probably just fluctuating.. environment is marginal. dvorak rating is too weak. don't see this disturbance organizing in a hurry.. moving just north of due west.
the deep layer low east of the mid atlantic isnt moving much, and seems to have a surface reflection. it could turn into a hybrid system if it can organize before the next trough comes by and gets it.. slim but remotely possible.
HF 0351z12august


Jason M
(Weather Watcher)
Mon Aug 12 2002 04:14 AM
Re: atlantic swirl 3

There won't be any troughs pulling this low north anytime soon. IF a trough were to pick it up, it would be the low currently off the east coast...the same trough that foreced Christobal northeast. But the low may continue on a more west to west-northwest track. The Bermuda high is expected to build south and west since the Azores high is forecasted to slightly weaken.

Rich B
(British Meteorologist)
Mon Aug 12 2002 07:35 AM
Re: atlantic swirl 3

ok, i am away for 10 days and miss out on two names systems! At least nothing too exciting happened. Interesting to see an invest up on the 1014 mb low north of the islands. Needs to fire some deep convection before i start to take much notice of it!

Anyway, just a brief post to say i am back.

Rich B


Unregistered User
(Unregistered)
Mon Aug 12 2002 02:11 PM
Re: The Return of Bertha

90L now on the NOAA storm floater loops

Unregistered User
(Unregistered)
Mon Aug 12 2002 02:35 PM
Re: atlantic swirl 3

Welcome Back Rich!

jth
(Storm Tracker)
Mon Aug 12 2002 02:43 PM
Re: atlantic swirl 3

Why is it not on the outlook?????? Do they not put things on the outlook til the are sure things now???

Unregistered User
(Unregistered)
Mon Aug 12 2002 03:17 PM
90L.. invest 11

oops.. did the math and this is the 11th invest of the year, not 10th. only show around right now.. sideshow at this point. moving slowly wnw, fairly healthy convection.. but only a weak hint of circulation. probably not closed. yes jason as you said a trough wont get this system anytime soon.. but it is slowing the deep easterly flow and allowing the convection to cluster. shear analysis says mostly ok.. only issue now is whether a low pressure center will evolve. something to watch for next couple of days. fair.
deep layer low east of virginia looking less cold core with time.. but not making any great leaps or bounds. probably start accelerating NE in the next 24hrs, so not over warm water for much longer. slim to none.
bastardi kept mentioning a possible system developing in the eastern gulf and moving partway up the east coast. have to admit the convection has less of a dumb, sheared appearance today. something to watch, nothing to grasp at this point. there is some weak model support. slim.
anything developing this week will be slow to evolve... very little model support for anything, no big focusing mechanism. personal thought, best chances with 90L.
HF 1517z12august


Unregistered User
(Unregistered)
Mon Aug 12 2002 04:11 PM
Re: 90L.. invest 11

HF raised my question...I too saw the latest Bastardi video and noted his interest in the eastern GOM...that has been sold as an upper feature, which I believe it has been, but the actual vortex seems to be very slow to lift out to the NE as predicted...and now it looks like a broad area of lower pressure may be controlling the weather flow around it at about 86 west about 200 miles west of SW Florida, any body else see this? EDS.

squirralee
(Weather Hobbyist)
Mon Aug 12 2002 05:16 PM
Re: The Return of Bertha

Can someone please explain what the NRL is, and also where do you find the #11 Invest info. Sorry to ask, but would like to understand more. Thanks

Larry
(Weather Watcher)
Mon Aug 12 2002 05:50 PM
Re: The Return of Bertha

NRL stands for the Naval Research Laboratory. The web page you want is NRL web page

garyb
(Weather Guru)
Mon Aug 12 2002 05:54 PM
Re: The Return of Bertha


Navy Lab use this link

http://kauai.nrlmry.navy.mil/sat-bin/tc_home


Unregistered User
(Unregistered)
Mon Aug 12 2002 06:21 PM
Re: The Return of Bertha

also available through www.atwc.org click satellite loops, click loops from NRL Monterrey.

Unregistered User
(Unregistered)
Mon Aug 12 2002 06:52 PM
Re: 90L.. invest 11

Still not in the last Tropical Outlook...and this is the reference in the 2:05 discussion:

TROPICAL ATLANTIC...
SCATTERED MODERATE AND ISOLATED STRONG CONVECTION FROM 20N TO
25N BETWEEN 63W AND 68W.

More emphasis is given to the wave around 42W...unbelievable!!!


Unregistered User
(Unregistered)
Mon Aug 12 2002 07:06 PM
Re: The Return of Bertha

Im sorry but looks really sort of pitiful.. i can see the swirl but besides being tiny it has no color. Understand conditions might improve but really pitiful.

Unregistered User
(Unregistered)
Mon Aug 12 2002 07:09 PM
42w

well ssd analyzed a too weak circulation with 90L yesterday evening and nothing since. i doubt there is anything at the surface with it, and the convection is healthy and persistent but not very vigorous or widespread. persistence is really all it has going for it.. hasnt shown much in the way of organization.. so far.
have to admit the wave at 42 (looks like 44 to me) is pretty well defined.. just devoid of convection. entering the big subsidence patch that seems to reside east of the islands this time of year.. but on the other side waves tend to pick up convection. when/if that happens it should be more interesting. the vortmax on the axis seems to be at 15 or 16N.. will probably be near the upper lesser antilles in about 2 days.
gulf isnt showing any organization, just a tendency for convection to keep firing and some wind curvature at the surface off west florida.
northwest atlantic cyclone is low on convection and already moving NE.
dont see anything developing before thursday, and it's fairly likely nothing will form this week.
HF 1910z12august


Unregistered User
(Unregistered)
Mon Aug 12 2002 10:05 PM
Re: The Return of Bertha

can w/gulf fire looks stormy.

Kevin
(Weather Master)
Mon Aug 12 2002 11:03 PM
Three areas of concern in the Atl.

Area 1: As weak and disorganized as this system appears now (yes, the one northeast of Puerto Rico), Florida may eventually have to deal with system later this week. An upper-level ridge is forecast to build in after the trough lifts out...and this could lead to significant strengthening by late Thursday into Friday. Even if it does not strengthen greatly before it gets to Florida, the eventual path could take it into the GOMEX. The system could really bomb there...so I'm going to have put Florida as a tropical cyclone risk area for Friday-Saturday. Time will tell.

There are also two tropical wave in the Atalntic showing some signs of organization in the East Atantic. These will both have to be monitored for development as they move further west.
My main concern goes to the wave northeast of Puerto Rico for the time being, however.

Kevin


Unregistered User
(Unregistered)
Mon Aug 12 2002 11:20 PM
Re: Three areas of concern in the Atl.

another big wave is about to come off africa, things are gonna start poppin soon, for atlantic. with big high, these areas are not gonna curve. besides andrew s.e. fla, s.w. fla. is long overdue for big hurricane. i lived in miami, last hurricane for city of miami, a major one was betsy 1965.for s.w. fla donna 42 years ago! for tampa 1921.... 81 years.

Unregistered User
(Unregistered)
Tue Aug 13 2002 12:41 AM
90L

the curtain is pulled back to reveal.... nothing. 90L's convection died off this evening and there isnt any kind of cyclonic feature below it. yesterday when i first saw it, didnt think it was a surface system. score one for first impressions.
we're in for a slow week.. watch the east atlantic waves if they start developing convection once they clear the 'desert' east of the leeward islands.. otherwise the basin is dead for now.
HF 0041z13august


Jason M
(Weather Watcher)
Tue Aug 13 2002 01:43 AM
Updated Discussion Including Thoughts on Rest of Season

FORECAST POSTED: 8/12/02/ 9:30 PM EDT


Tropical Weather Outlook:

For the third straight day, the Gulf of Mexico is full of convection. We aren't concerned about the convection in the western gulf at this time. The convection in the northwest Gulf is associated with an upper level disturbance and a surface trough. However, the central Gulf states will continue to see a large amount of rainfall over the next few days. The southerly flow from the Gulf of Mexico will continue as a frontal boundary over Kansas (The same system causing the severe weather) drops south.

The eastern Gulf of Mexico disturbance is more interesting. Now we aren't forecasting development from this disturbance in the Gulf of Mexico. Sea level pressures are way too high to sustain development and the convection is very disorganized. But some of the models take the low northeast. This is reasonable since the disturbance will likely move north, over the western edge of the western Atlantic ridge. The track would be right along the east coast from Georgia to North Carolina. The center will then move out into open waters. But the system won't just move straight out to sea. A ridge to the north of the disturbance will then begin to build in, slowing down the easterly movement. Now this is when we will have to watch this one for development as the center will still be over 80 degree water temperatures. We wouldn't be talking about a purely tropical system anyway. I would have to say chances of development are about 10%. The chance for development will slowly increase if it continues to follow the forecast path and if it holds together.

Our second disturbed area is north of Puerto Rico. Earlier today and yesterday,we had a possible closed low. Now the system appears to be more like an elongated broad area of low pressure. The northern extent of the trough will likely fizzle. The southern end is what we will have to watch. The broad low will continue on a west to west-northwest track over the next few days. Conditions out ahead of the low are becomign increasingly favorable for development as an anticyclone in the upper levels is developing over the Bahamas. Currently, convection is decreasing and it appears tha the system is falling appart. Now we have to wait and see if the convection refires later tonight or tomorrow. If not, then this broad low is history. As for the forecast path, the center should pass over the Florida Keys in 72 hours. This would take the system into the eastern Gulf of Mexico. If the low can survive the next day or two, the Gulf states could be in for some trouble. But the next couple of days are the key. Since the low has become more elongated and the center has become ill-defined, I have lowered the chance of development down to 10%. Now if we can get the convection to refire, I will become more concerned.

The third area is a tropical wave near 35W. Both the MRF (GFS) and AVN models have been forecasting development from this wave. However, the latest run no longer suggests development. Therefore, a more westerly track towards the islands is being forecasted as the wave will not be controlled by winds in the upper levels. Development from this wave wasn't forecasted to begin with and this appears to be verifying. There is still a lot of sinking air over the central Atlantic that should hinder any chances of development.

The next significant tropical wave is located over western Africa. We will have to wait and see what this wave does once it emerges off the coast to see how it interacts with water for the first time. The wave should quickly fizzle as the east Atlantic is still being dominated by subsidence. But the center of circulation should still be monitored as it will slwoly move into warmer waters.

The Caribbean Sea is being dominated by strong westerly winds. There is a very weak tropical wave located along 75W but there is barely any convection associated with it. The Caribbean Sea won't sea much in the way of development at least through Wednesday.

There is an upper low east of New England. This low is not warm core and is nontropical. In addition, there are no signs of this low becoming tropical in nature. The low shouldn't move much over the next 12 hours before picking up speed and racing east-northeast.

NOAA And Dr Gray's Updated Seasonal Forecasts...

Dr. Gray: 9 named storms, 4 hurricanes and 2 major hurricanes

NOAA: 7-10 named storms, 4-6 hurricane and 1-3 major hurricanes

Both NOAA and Dr. Gray do have some good points for downgrading their seasonal number. However, there are many points that I also disagree with. Both NOAA and Dr. Gray mentioned cooler than normal sea surface temperatures across the Atlantic basin inhibiting development. This doesn't appear to be the case. We have average to slightly above sea temperatures across the Gulf of Mexico and the Caribbean Sea. The sea surface temperatures along the east coast are even warmer...as warm as six degrees above average in some areas. The eastern atlantic is the only area that is experiencing cooler than average ssts. But you have to notice that the bulk of the cooler sea temps are north of the Cape Verde islands and the Mean Development Region (MDR). So even the negative ssts in the eastern Atlantic shouldn't have much of an influence on activity. Even if the sea surface temperatures were to have an impact, the impact would be that tropical waves moving off of the African coast would deelop closer to land. This could mean trouble as the majority of the systems that do form in the east Atlantic easily get forced north by troughs.

Sea surface temperatures have been on a warmign trend over the past five weeks. I mentioned that the temperatures would continue to warm a couple of weeks ago. I also mentioned that this was in response to the North Atlantic Oscillation turning negative. The NAO has gone positive for a short period of time. However, long range model guidance is forecasting the NAO to turn NEGATIVE for a second time. All this means, is that the current warming trend should continue.

The main reason why they lowered their forecast numbers was because they believe that El Nino will enhance the westerly winds across the Mean Development Region. First of all, El Nino is weak.I agree with them that we will likely see a moderate El Nino by January. However, the sea surface temperatures in El Nino regions 1 and 2 are still running normal to slightly below normal. El Nino regions 1 and 2 are the 2 most important regions when it comes to Atlantic activity. Now there is an El Nino folks. If you look at the central Pacific, you will notice a large swath of above normal sea surface temperatures. In addition, the cool anomolies are now beginning to moderate. So we are definitely in a developing El Nino stage. However, it takes at least three months for El Nino to begin having any affects on the westerlys across the Atlantic. So El Nino should remain weak throughout the remainder of the season. Therefore, the influence on seasonal activity by El Nino should be weak. But wait there is more!

The negative phase of the Madden Julian Oscillation (MJO) will likely be centered over the Atlantic basin during the climatological peak of the Atlantic hurricane season. The negative MJO enhances tropical activity. The activity is enhanced because the negative MJO usually causes vertical wind shear to decrease. So we have a weak El Nino expected to cause the shear to increase while the negative phase of the MJO is expected to be over the Atlantic at the same time. The negative MJO is one of the main reasons why I don't believe El Nino will have a major influence on the remainder of the season.

Another thing that I also wanted to mention, is the fact that El Nino could actucally enhance activity in late October and into the month of November. Typically during El Nino years, we see above average subtropical activity. We saw a lot of subtropical activity in the early part of the 1997 season. In addition, long range model guidance indicates that sea level pressure over the western Atlantic will be below average. I can believe this since we're already seeing negative SLPA over the west Atlantic. El Nino should have a slightly greater influence by November. By then, the bulk of tropical activity should be over with. But this doesn't mean anything for subtropical activity. We could see a few subtropical storms off the east coast towards the end of the season.

FORECASTER: Jason Moreland, TWWFT



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DISCLAIMER: THIS IS NOT AN OFFICIAL FORECAST. PLEASE LISTEN TO YOUR LOCAL NEWS OR THE NATIONAL HURRICANE CENTER FOR THE LATEST INFORMATION.

http://www.tropicalweatherwatchers.com



Note: This is NOT an official page. It is run by weather hobbyists and should not be used as a replacement for official sources. 
CFHC's main servers are currently located at Hostdime.com in Orlando, FL.
Image Server Network thanks to Mike Potts and Amazon Web Services. If you have static file hosting space that allows dns aliasing contact us to help out! Some Maps Provided by:
Great thanks to all who donated and everyone who uses the site as well. Site designed for 800x600+ resolution
When in doubt, take the word of the National Hurricane Center