MikeCAdministrator
(Admin)
Thu Sep 29 2005 11:20 AM
TD 20 Forms in the Caribbean, TD 19 Out at Sea

Saturday 11AM Update
The tropical disturbance in the northwest Caribbean has finally become organized enough to be classified as TD 20. Recon will be in the depression later today, while tropical storm warnings are now up for a portion of the Yucutan. Northern Mexico and southern Texas are under the gun in 3-4 days from this one. Meanwhile, TD 19 continues to try to become better organized and has a brief window of opportunity to become a tropical storm. It should remain out at sea.

TD 20


Friday PM Update
A tropical disturbance to the west-southwest of the Cape Verde Islands has become the season's 19th tropical depression. Forecast motion is generally to the north-northwest over the next five days, keeping this one well out to sea. Interesting, it is the furthest east developing system thus far this season.

TD 19


Elsewhere, the disturbance in the NW Caribbean is only slightly better organized than yesterday, the makings of a system about three days down the line to the NE of the Bahamas are coming together along 60W, and a hybrid-type system appears to be forming near 25N/25W. While there is nothing classified out there to track right now, there are 4 areas of active interest for potential development over the next 5 days. Quite possible 2 or 3 of these could develop, so stay tuned.

Original Update
The area talked about earlier in the week is still disorganized but has a chance to develop over the next few days. The Hurricane Hunters are en route to the disturbance this morning and afternoon. It's still moving generally westward, and if it were to develop, it would likely affect the Yucatan area and then enter the Southwestern Gulf, most likely continuing on to mainland Mexico.



Chances for tropical development of the wave 99L in the Western Caribbean in the next two days.
Code:

forget it) 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 (sure thing)
[---------*------------]



There is another area just off the coast of Louisiana, but that is even less likely to form.

Chances for tropical development of the disturbance off the coast of Louisiana.
Code:

forget it) 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 (sure thing)
[-*--------------------]



Beyond that, another long clump of storms from Northeast Cuba to north of the Bahamas, but isn't organized enough to even consider at the moment, but we'll watch it over the next several days as well as another wave east of the Leeward Islands that has almost no chance of development right now.

So, nothing immediate, but plenty to watch.

Event Related Links
Stormcarib reports from the islands

TD 19


TD 20

Animated model plot of TD 20


Fletch
(Weather Guru)
Thu Sep 29 2005 01:15 PM
Re: Tropic Watch

Any news on the AM Recon flight??

Wingman51
(Weather Guru)
Thu Sep 29 2005 01:36 PM
Re: Tropic Watch

Last I saw was scheduled for 1500 Zulu (11am EDST)

Thunderbird12
(Meteorologist)
Thu Sep 29 2005 01:50 PM
Re: Tropic Watch

The last TWO said that a plane would be out there "early this afternoon", if necessary. It appears that convection has consolidated somewhat closer to the apparent center of the system, so they may actually send the plane out there this time if that convection maintains itself over the next couple of hours.

doug
(Weather Analyst)
Thu Sep 29 2005 02:11 PM
Re: Tropic Watch

The local mets in Tampa have all alluded to a"tropical wave" effecting the area in mid week. Pray tell what is it?
There does seem to be some increase in convection around what could be a low near 22n/57w and that seems to be on a westward drift..
In fact that may be a better focus for Stan than the carribean now that I watch it for a while...any thoughts?


SirCane
(Storm Tracker)
Thu Sep 29 2005 02:31 PM
Re: Tropic Watch

I'd give this thing higher than a "3" probability of forming. More like a 6.

Margie
(Senior Storm Chaser)
Thu Sep 29 2005 03:00 PM
Re: Tropic Watch

I agree. From what I have seen this year, once a LLC gets going, in general they seem to be pretty tenacious, even with day after day of shear ripping convection apart, or even when it has had a chance to be organized, but shear then pulls the upper levels partially to the side and the LLC is somewhat (or even mostly) exposed.

Nature has her own schedule and she's not as impatient as us, so the waiting game continues. It's almost into the area of low shear, so by tonight or tomorrow it ought to get its opportunity to organize, and if things don't come together then, that is probably that.

One good thing is that it looks like the probabilites lean towards a Yucatan or Tex Mex directon. One thing we really don't want for the remainder of this year is a system coming up north from the Carribean from the western end of Cuba (either rounding it as Camille did, or going straight over), hitting the loop current N of Cuba, and then going N to hit the very deep pool of the loop current that remains S of LA.


Thunderbird12
(Meteorologist)
Thu Sep 29 2005 03:01 PM
Re: Tropic Watch

Convection continues to develop near the presumed center of 99L, so the system may be getting closer to becoming a depression. The visible loop also hints at some sort of circulation further north, to the south of Cuba around 21N, 80W. I'm not sure what significance that may have.

Thunderbird12
(Meteorologist)
Thu Sep 29 2005 03:35 PM
Re: Tropic Watch

Recon plane is on the way:

000
URNT11 KNHC 291514
97779 15004 50309 86500 67000 34018 64752 /8039
RMK AF307 01HHA INVEST OB 01


sara33
(Weather Guru)
Thu Sep 29 2005 04:03 PM
Re: Tropic Watch

Re: The Mets in Tampa...
I have not been watching the news much lately. So, they are saying an area of Low pressure will be affecting the area? Tampa/St. Pete???
That would be a real bummer, we finally got Bucs tickets for this weekend, Hope the weather holds off! We have been really lucky this year(knock on wood) Hope it stays that way for everyone for the rest of the season!
I love this board. I have learned so much!


Rabbit
(Weather Master)
Thu Sep 29 2005 04:10 PM
Re: Tropic Watch

i dont see this system developing into anything within the next couple of days--the shear is increasing, and while the LLC is near Central America, the mid level rotation is near Cuba

doug
(Weather Analyst)
Thu Sep 29 2005 04:44 PM
Re: Tropic Watch

Sara: what they said exactly is "moisture from a tropical wave" will increase chances of precip. in the middle of next week. I think that is about 6 days out. I am just not sure what system they may be thinking could do that; and that if it is a wave now it may not be in 6 days...

sara33
(Weather Guru)
Thu Sep 29 2005 04:51 PM
Re: Tropic Watch

Thanks Doug!

doug
(Weather Analyst)
Thu Sep 29 2005 04:53 PM
Re: Tropic Watch

just ran thru the Globals and the Nogaps and the UKMET do show increased low pressure and even some development in the W Carib or close to the peninsula in 132-144 hrs.
None of the globals do much with anything currently in the visible sat pics.
Hope these models are wrong as I'm on vacation next week.


Steve H1
(Storm Tracker)
Thu Sep 29 2005 04:56 PM
Re: Tropic Watch

The most interesting area in the tropics right now is the circulation at 21N/58W (Doug mentioned) that is moving toward the west at about 10 kts. Convection is beginning to fire again, and this has east coast written all over it in about 5 days, maybe six. WIth the building ridge and the EPAC active (mjo) moving east, I think this one will be the talk early next week. Cheers!!

Wingman51
(Weather Guru)
Thu Sep 29 2005 04:59 PM
Re: Tropic Watch

Well, Let's see . . . I have a Bahamas cruise next Thurs day for 4 days . . . Humm . . . Stan?? Tammy??? Just My luck. LOL

doug
(Weather Analyst)
Thu Sep 29 2005 05:04 PM
Re: Tropic Watch

if the Carribean system will go it will have to come together around 17n and 82w...that seems to be where a mid level circulation is for sure and possibly a llc too.

Clark
(Meteorologist)
Thu Sep 29 2005 05:39 PM
Re: Tropic Watch

Expect a low-level circulation to form, if it has not done so already, near the mid-level center forming at 19N/81W sometime later today. Recon isn't quite that far south -- dropsonde report at about 21N -- but may well find something down there if it hangs around long enough. The weak circulation near 17.5N/82W is already starting to become entrained into the larger system consolidating further to the NE.

If the trough over the US does not extend far enough to the south, a general west-northwest motion is likely over the next few days. The upper low to the north of the storm has moved to a substantial distance away to more than likely be aiding the storm's outflow rather than shearing it or stealing mid-level energy from the wave. Upper-level conditions are projected to be favorable as the storm moves toward the WNW with development becoming likely the longer the organization of the system continues.

The feature further to the E will have to be watched, but this one in the Caribbean is the main game in town for another couple of days.


HanKFranK
(User)
Thu Sep 29 2005 05:47 PM
Re: Tropic Watch

that batch of convection/sfc trough being enhanced by an upper low near 23/57 may also be the precursor thing i was talking about last night. the little low being masked by an upper low out near 29/71 also may be the thing that'll get low pressure started. later ukmet runs favor the thing doug is talking about... nogaps still sees my feature today but not as well. either or, the pattern wants there to be a storm approaching the east coast next week.
i'm guessing recon has been through the low in the nw caribbean already, and no vortex. it's probably still too broad. even though convection is firing near the center, it keeps migrating northward away from the formative system. overall the last three or four days it has slowly but consistently improved, so pretty soon it should cross the threshold and become a classified system. been saying that for two days now, but the basic synoptic reasoning for it hasn't changed in that time.
headline for this thread could just as easily have been 'waiting on the tropics.'
HF 1747z29september

well, clark just straightened that out. i was guessing recon had already run through, but that was presumptuous. could somebody give me a link to that site that plots the recon obs? -HF


Hootowl
(Weather Hobbyist)
Thu Sep 29 2005 05:56 PM
Re: Tropic Watch

Well..... you might be o.k. - if the time frame they mention holds.

from Tampa area forescast
BY TUESDAY...GFS SHOWS A SEPARATE EASTERLY WAVE MOVING UNDERNEATH
THE STRONG 500 MB RIDGE PARKED ACROSS THE MID ATLANTIC REGION...
EVENTUALLY SLOWING DOWN AND CUTTING OFF IN THE EASTERN GULF TUE
LATER TUESDAY INTO WEDNESDAY. THIS SYSTEM SHOULD BRING A GRADUAL
RETURN OF DEEPER MOISTURE AND REDUCE THE SURFACE WINDS AS IT
INTERRUPTS THE PACE OF THE NORTHEASTERLY FLOW AROUND THE MID
ATLANTIC HIGH...WHICH BY THIS TIME WILL BE SLIDING OFF THE COAST.

&&

from Miami/ South Florida area forecast
MODELS CONTINUE TO CONVERGE ON A BROAD TROUGH DEVELOPING ACROSS
FLORIDA/BAHAMAS AND THE CARIBBEAN EARLY/MID NEXT WEEK...WITH SOME
MODELS EVEN SHOWING LOW PRESSURE DEVELOPING. FOLLOWED MEX GUIDANCE AT
THIS TIME...BUT IT COULD BECOME WETTER DURING THE EARLY AND MIDDLE
PART OF NEXT WEEK...DEPENDING ON HOW ALL THIS PLAYS OUT.

&&


Good Luck!


typhoon_tip
(Meteorologist)
Thu Sep 29 2005 05:58 PM
Re: Tropic Watch

Quote:

if the Carribean system will go it will have to come together around 17n and 82w...that seems to be where a mid level circulation is for sure and possibly a llc too.




System NW Caribbean: What's interesting in watching this area of disturbed weather over the last couple of days is that it keeps generating these llv vorticity maxims that summarily decay. I've seen 3 so far do this, where/when a tightly clustered region of cold cloud tops amid the greater area of convection decay, and in their wake there is a "tendency" in visible imagery for llv cloud rotation. These that I have witnessed have been on the order of a mere 50 nautical miles in diameter (est) and do not persist for too long before decaying them selves.... At which point, there is already another cluster of intense convection developing in a separate area, and the cycle seems to repeat. It really does appear that this region of the W and NW Caribbean is creating weak tropical lows as a response to convection "not quite" persisting in the same location long enough to make use of the time-dependency and corriolis forcing with air that is moving inward toward the upward moving air of these thunderstorm clusters. Moreover, if you look at the cirrus blow-off from Yucatan thunderstorms you note that they are moving E or ESE pretty clearly...This tells me that there is shear in the environment.. Not sure but do suspect this is partly why any given thunderstorm cluster isn't persisting, because the mechanics in the U/A are not quite right for difluent motion at this time... As HPC is pointing out however, these U/A conditions are expected to be more favorable sooner rather than later so it may just take off like all at once, once these U/A winds come around to a better anticyclonic impression.

We'll, see..

System S of Louisiana and near the mouth of the Mississippi: Frankly and surprisingly it appears like it has a better llv vis sat presentation than 99L. The upper U/A is a bit hostile however. What is interesting to me is that if this feature can persist beneath the mean steering field it would like avail of better U/A later on... Interesting prospect when you consider that we are likely better than 50% that a system will finally wrap up near 99L and the proximity of the two systems are close. If the system in the Gulf never does get deeper in the troposphere that is, it would likely just be asorbed in the circulation field of 99L.

System of the SE US Coast: That event (if occurs) is interesting... At first glance of the global based model I'm inclined to think it is primarily driven to existence by numerical instability of have a strong anticyclone moving off the NE US Coast, which in turn imparts a long fetch of modifying continental polar air over the still very warm Atlantic waters. This enhances baroclinicity in that region as a natural conclusion. Essentially, this configuration of having a trough developing in the Nations heart land, balanced against a anticyclone near 60W/45N (appr loc) teleconnects nicely to a weakness along the SE US Coast, and combined with said temperature gradients N/S in the west Atlantic Basic is actually quite often a precurser forecasters look for prior to Nor'easter/coastal cyclogenesis in the winter... Therefore, it is difficult to be totally certain that whatever forms there (if anything) wouldn't be more of a hybrid type subtropical low... In either event, there should certainly be an inverted trough in that location. Should the apparent developing gyre near 58W/21N assume a true warm core and attending structure, that would confuse this, because it is likely in my mind that an inverted trough/subtropical low could form off the SE US Coast without this feature currently moving WSW through said lat/lon. You could actually end up with an inverted trough that has a true tropical system approaching its lower axis from the ESE.

Definitely lots to consider!


doug
(Weather Analyst)
Thu Sep 29 2005 06:48 PM
Re: Tropic Watch

Clark: it looks like something is trying to get going at all three areas mentioned: near 21n; 19N and 17.5N
the area around 17.5 surely shows signs of a LLC but eroding convection; most convection is growing at 21N
One of these will have to assert itself or else it will remain a wave probably.


Wingman51
(Weather Guru)
Thu Sep 29 2005 08:09 PM
NOT YET !!!

DATA FROM AN AIR FORCE RESERVE UNIT RECONNAISSANCE AIRCRAFT
INVESTIGATING THE AREA OF DISTURBED WEATHER LOCATED BETWEEN THE
CAYMAN ISLANDS AND HONDURAS INDICATE THAT THE SYSTEM REMAINS
DISORGANIZED AND THAT A TROPICAL DEPRESSION HAS NOT FORMED. A LARGE
AREA OF LIGHT AND VARIABLE WINDS WITH A MINIMUM PRESSURE OF 1009 MB
...OR 29.80 INCHES... WAS DETECTED ABOUT 170 MILES SOUTHWEST OF
GRAND CAYMAN ISLAND. HOWEVER... THERE IS NO THUNDERSTORM ACTIVITY
COLLOCATED WITH THE AREA OF LOWEST PRESSURE.


Margie
(Senior Storm Chaser)
Thu Sep 29 2005 08:16 PM
Re: Tropic Watch

In some of the sat images it seems you can see a bit of the circ at that loc. It is skirting just north now of some of the warmest deep water in the Carribean, and is right in an area of warm SSTs, so since the low has moved north and shear is supposed to be low tomorrow, and the dry air that was east of the Yucatan has been pushed back, prolly tomorrow this thing will start start cooking.

damejune2
(Storm Tracker)
Fri Sep 30 2005 03:21 AM
Re: Tropic Watch

I am confused (no big surprise here) but for the last few days the wave in the NW Caribbean has been moving towards the WNW @ 10mph right? Why then does it seem like it's in the same place? I haven't checked the coordinates on it, but it doesn't seem to be getting any closer to the Yucatan Peninsula.

It hasn't really been moving that fast. Plus, even at 7mph, that's only about 170 miles per day...not that much movement. -Clark


Tazmanian93
(Weather Master)
Fri Sep 30 2005 04:08 AM
Re: Tropic Watch

It's def moving;

DATE/TIME LAT LON CLASSIFICATION
29/2332 UTC 18.7N 80.7W T1.0/1.0 99
29/1745 UTC 17.9N 82.0W T1.0/1.0 99
29/1145 UTC 16.2N 82.0W T1.0/1.0 99
28/2345 UTC 15.9N 80.8W T1.0/1.0 99
28/1745 UTC 15.9N 80.1W T1.0/1.0 99
27/2345 UTC 16.2N 77.7W TOO WEAK 99
27/1745 UTC 15.6N 77.1W TOO WEAK 99L


Tazmanian93
(Weather Master)
Fri Sep 30 2005 04:15 AM
Re: Tropic Watch

Of course it's early, but I certainly do not care for CMC's future of 99. And def wanting to keep an eye on MM5 @ 132 hrs and UKM @ 120 hrs

HanKFranK
(User)
Fri Sep 30 2005 05:41 AM
Re: Tropic Watch

notice those satellite positions for the system jump north and east at the end? that's just what they are... satellite guesses based on the convective pattern. hard to tell where the actual surface low is, but it has traditionally been displaced south and west of the convective area.. unless it finally got smart and redeveloped under the convection. friday could be nothing but a rehash of thursday, with the system meriting a recon but not having any real organization.
looked at the 00z models that are available and they don't show anything that new/original... other than a weird hybrid system running due west at 25/30n from the canaries into the open atlantic. the old prognosticators for a system off the east coast are still seeing it, the camp that just sees an open trough advancing still sees just that. the future of our nw caribbean system is vague as several different models track a feature out of the area to anywhere from texas to southern mexico. none see a significant system. to restate with detail the idea that two systems will form and threaten the u.s. coast next week would be nailing jello to the wall... will just say that i'm not going to budge even though there may be cracks in the armor.
for now, stan is hiding in the bushes.
HF 0541z30september


HURRICANELONNY
(Weather Guru)
Fri Sep 30 2005 11:46 AM
Re: Tropic Watch

That's funny. I"ve been thinking the same thing for days. For the last, lets say 3-4 days it's has been moving wnw-nw according to the NHC. If that was true it would either been in the Gulf or hit Mexico. Sometimes I just think weather agencies don't put there heads together. Dr Lyons said stationary a couple of days ago while the NHC discussion says wnw/nw around 10-15 mph. Go figure...... :?:

SMOKE
(Weather Watcher)
Fri Sep 30 2005 12:11 PM
Re: Tropic Watch

RECON CNX. We'll see if it can get organized.

Beaumont, TX
(Storm Tracker)
Fri Sep 30 2005 01:11 PM
Re: Tropic Watch

Guys, how did ya'll think the NHC did forecasting Rita? I have heard people complaining but I think they did a good job of forecasting. Watching the high move more east, I had a feeling she might come our way eventually. At the very least, we'd get high wind and rain if it had hit around Matagorda. Actually, we were very fortunate it went in a little east of Sabine Pass but we still we had extensive damage. Today we were allowed to return and check out homes so my husband, son, and brother-in-law are on their way to Beaumont. I know people who have already returned before today but we decided to wait until today. We are staying in Houston with my sister for now. I would like to be at home, of course, but at least I have a home to return to with what looks like little damage to the outside. One of the things I was wondering about is how many storms normally form in October? And are they ever the big ones or are they usually TS or cat 1 or 2's?

stevie
(Verified CFHC User)
Fri Sep 30 2005 02:02 PM
Re: Tropic Watch

Well, without much research, Opal (1996) and Jerry(1989) Floyd(1987), Irene(1999) were October storms. Usually fronts safe us here in Texas this time of year though. Jerry hit Halloween day on the east end of Galveston(100mph winds). Being the storm chaser that I am I met him in Kemah with some good winds.

Thunderbird12
(Meteorologist)
Fri Sep 30 2005 02:08 PM
Re: Tropic Watch

It appears that the system near 12N, 34W is now classified as 90L. That may turn out to be our next depression.

HanKFranK
(User)
Fri Sep 30 2005 02:33 PM
90/99

i didn't think anything was going to form that far out this year. it waited until the last day of september, but that looks legit. it has a 1.5 on it, but all the forecast models take it more north than anything else.
99L has a 1.5 on it also... TWO says pressures are falling and you can see the turning in the low-level wind field (because there isn't much convection/dry air intrustion on the west side). when they recon it later it's just as likely to be 'too broad' like it was earlier, but slowly and inevitably this thing is developing.
HF 1433z30september


Thunderbird12
(Meteorologist)
Fri Sep 30 2005 03:38 PM
latest TWO

SATELLITE IMAGES AND SURFACE OBSERVATIONS INDICATE THAT THE LARGE
LOW PRESSURE AREA LOCATED OVER THE NORTHWESTERN CARIBBEAN SEA HAS
BECOME BETTER ORGANIZED... EVEN THOUGH UPPER-LEVEL WINDS HAVE
BECOME LESS FAVORABLE. SHOWER AND THUNDERSTORM ACTIVITY HAS
INCREASED AND THIS SYSTEM STILL HAS THE POTENTIAL TO BECOME A
TROPICAL DEPRESSION DURING THE NEXT DAY OR SO AS IT MOVES SLOWLY
WEST-NORTHWESTWARD. THE RECONNAISSANCE FLIGHT SCHEDULED FOR THIS
AFTERNOON HAS BEEN CANCELED. HOWEVER... ANOTHER AIR FORCE RESERVE
AIRCRAFT IS SCHEDULED TO INVESTIGATE THE SYSTEM LATE TONIGHT OR
SATURDAY...IF NECESSARY. WHETHER OR NOT THIS SYSTEM BECOME A
TROPICAL CYCLONE... LOCALLY HEAVY RAINFALL WILL LIKELY AFFECT
JAMAICA... THE CAYMAN ISLANDS... PORTIONS OF CENTRAL AND WESTERN
CUBA... AND THE YUCATAN PENINSULA OVER THE NEXT COUPLE OF DAYS.
INTERESTS IN AND AROUND THE NORTHWESTERN CARIBBEAN SEA SHOULD
CLOSELY MONITOR THE PROGRESS OF THIS DISTURBANCE.

THE LOW PRESSURE CENTERED ABOUT 575 MILES WEST-SOUTHWEST OF THE
SOUTHWESTERNMOST CAPE VERDE ISLANDS HAS BECOME MUCH BETTER DEFINED.
THUNDERSTORM ACTIVITY HAS INCREASED AND BECOME BETTER ORGANIZED...
AND UPPER-LEVEL WINDS ARE FAVORABLE FOR A TROPICAL DEPRESSION TO
FORM LATER TODAY OR ON SATURDAY AS THE SYSTEM MOVES SLOWLY
NORTHWESTWARD OVER OPEN WATERS.

THE SMALL LOW PRESSURE AREA LOCATED OVER THE WESTERN GULF OF MEXICO
ABOUT 275 MILES EAST OF BROWNSVILLE TEXAS HAS WEAKNED AND BECOME
LESS ORGANIZED. SHOWER ACTIVITY REMAINS LIMITED AND UPPER-LEVEL
WINDS ARE UNFAVORABLE FOR DEVELOPMENT. THIS SYSTEM IS MOVING TOWARD
THE WEST-SOUTHWEST AT 10 TO 15 MPH AND SHOULD MOVE INLAND OVER
EXTREME NORTHEASTERN MEXICO OR EXTREME SOUTHERN TEXAS ON SATURDAY.


typhoon_tip
(Meteorologist)
Fri Sep 30 2005 03:45 PM
Re: 90/99

Quote:

i didn't think anything was going to form that far out this year. it waited until the last day of september, but that looks legit. it has a 1.5 on it, but all the forecast models take it more north than anything else.
99L has a 1.5 on it also... TWO says pressures are falling and you can see the turning in the low-level wind field (because there isn't much convection/dry air intrustion on the west side). when they recon it later it's just as likely to be 'too broad' like it was earlier, but slowly and inevitably this thing is developing.
HF 1433z30september





Ahhhh... Anytime a forecast is blown, or something surprises everyone and I hear that dreaded "...Climatology" word I always grin. Climatology can be beguiling often misleading tool there is available.

The following image illustrates a pervasive SST warm anomaly that encompasses virtually the entire Atlantic Basin S of (appr) 35N latitude, from the Bahamas to the Cape Verde Islands:
http://www.osdpd.noaa.gov/PSB/EPS/SST/data/anomnight.9.27.2005.gif

When knowing and understanding such that we do, that climatology is a time dependent long term statistical mean, it seems entirely reasonable to assume climate will not account for extremes that take place outside the mode on our graphs. Especially when considering that the Cape Verde season was not very prodigious during 2004 and particularly this year to date, therefore, cross-seasonal less than normal SST processing in those districts of the Atlantic Basin in question. I cannot atest for the actual depth of the thermocline...subsequently the actual upper oceanic heat content as an integrated value...but sufficed to say at least on the surface there appears to be higher SST than climatology.

In terms of pure observation I have noticed that last year and this year both have had a very peculiar middle and upper level tropospheric behavior from the Puerto Rico Archipelago east to the WNW of the Cape Verde Islands. In this region, despite having near neutral ENSO signals and/or slightly LaNina like conditions in the east Pacific there has still been heightened occurrences of unfavorable westerlies dipping fairly deeply into the tropical Atlantic. (For those of us who are unfamiliar with this, La"Nino" tends to excite stronger U/A west components in the means, effectively shearing the tops off any would be developments downwind in the Atlantic Basin...)

Much of the reason what the Cape Verde season tends to shut down in latter September so earnestly isn't just for SST, either. The activation of the westerlies in concert with season change definitely plays a pivotal role, because La Nino or not, you invariably will end up with trough incursions out there by the middle of October. This is just to point out that so long as we are running some pretty impressive cross-seasonal SST warm anomalies in the Atlantic Basin, approximately half of the "normal" reason why Cape Verde systems tend not to develop at this time of year is being compensated for by this unusual SST scenario.


Thunderbird12
(Meteorologist)
Fri Sep 30 2005 03:48 PM
Re: latest TWO

Looks like they are no longer calling for the upper-level winds to become more favorable for 99L, but it is certainly possible that a depression will form anyway. It certainly seems to be windier down there today... a few reporting stations are reporting sustained winds of around 15 knots. Yesterday, surface winds were lighter and the flight-level winds on the recon weren't getting above 15 knots.

Sounds like they are about ready to pull the trigger on 90L... if it maintains its current organization for another 6 hours, it could be named a depression on the next advisory.

I'm not sure how the little low in the Gulf could have become "less organized". Looks like it will merely remain a curiosity until it moves inland somewhere.

Based on the official forecast, it looks like Hurricane Otis could eventually have some impact on Baja California and the southwestern U.S. The 120-hr forecast has a weakening depression on the Arizona/Mexico border.


Margie
(Senior Storm Chaser)
Fri Sep 30 2005 04:00 PM
Re: 90/99 *DELETED*

Post deleted by Margie

typhoon_tip
(Meteorologist)
Fri Sep 30 2005 04:03 PM
Re: 90/99

Quote:

Can you please get rid of the graphic in post #57509.




Already done...My apologies...wasn't aware that it would so significantly ulter everyone's GUI... Oops...still learning this forum's capabilities..
peace!


Margie
(Senior Storm Chaser)
Fri Sep 30 2005 04:12 PM
Re: 90/99

Because it is finally into the warm deep water, I think that convection will get going right over the low (has, some already) and stick, in spite of the tremendous shear from winds going into that trof (very impressive looking!). As it moves west it is in the area of less shear.

Thunderbird12
(Meteorologist)
Fri Sep 30 2005 04:25 PM
Re: 90/99

As Hank mentioned, there is a lot of cyclonic turning evident in the VIS loop on the western side of the system. It almost looks like there is a circulation trying to sneak off to the west, with new convection flaring on the west side of the overall system. Further to the east, Grand Cayman recently reported sustained winds of 20 knots out of the ESE in a rain shower.

Big Kahuna
(Weather Hobbyist)
Fri Sep 30 2005 04:39 PM
Re: 90/99

are you talking about the system around 60w 20n ?

http://www.ssd.noaa.gov/PS/TROP/DATA/RT/watl-wv-loop.html

I know it doesnt mean much but even the ukm picked up on it on ther 850mb.

http://moe.met.fsu.edu/tcgengifs/


MapMaster
(Weather Guru)
Fri Sep 30 2005 05:34 PM
Re: 90/99

Thats an upper low...don't use WV to determine of you have a system or not! It doesn't work.

Hey, what is that out by the Canary Islands??? There is an upper low immediately to the sw, but, this looks like an organized, tropical system.

Looks like we will have (at least) a td at 5, in the central atlantic.

http://weather.msfc.nasa.gov/GOES/metsat7ir.html


scottsvb
(Weather Master)
Fri Sep 30 2005 06:00 PM
Re: 90/99

Gotta laugh at my friends at the NHC for saying the same thing for the last 3 days and cancelling the recon the last 2. Currently the NW carribean system is the same as about 3 days ago. Weak circulation around 1008mbs but finally should become a dep later tomorrow. Movement will be towards the NE mexico coastline. I would like to agree with the nogaps on developing another system near Jamaica by early next week but it could be further N over the SE Bahamas. Movement will be NW and could bring needed rainfall to parts of florida by next weekend.

Bloodstar
(Moderator)
Fri Sep 30 2005 06:06 PM
So many Features.... so little time!

Well... a quick run down from what I see out there....

99L: Is going to have that sheared look for a bit, but there is a definite low pressure. If the trend contineus, it will probably be classified in the next 36 hours. it's moving slowly, which is probably bad news if you don't want it to develop....

90L: Hey, where'd this come from? It's certainly looking pretty good for a late season Cape Verde storm, Nice little fish spinner most likely

Other features that catch my eye:
GOM spin: It's pretty, and it's harmless.... yay!

There's a pretty strong ULL(?) sitting at 25N 25W, it looks like it could go hybrid, but it's hard to tell at this point. I'm guessing it'll lift north and east soon enough, but you never know until it's gone.

22N 60W, I'd give a heads up there, as the thunderstorms are starting to increase even though it looks like an ULL, it has some pretty strong potential to drill down....

That's my two cents
-Mark.


Clark
(Meteorologist)
Fri Sep 30 2005 06:34 PM
Re: So many Features.... so little time!

QuikScat suggests the making of a low-level center with that disturbance along 25N/W with some pretty strong rain-flagged winds, but it's mainly aloft right now. Not out of the realm of possibility that it develops -- it has good model support for some type of development, whether hybrid or tropical -- but probably will go out to sea in the long run. Ditto 90L...which is pretty close to being classified.

Ron Basso
(Storm Tracker)
Fri Sep 30 2005 08:03 PM
Re: 20N-60W

The ULL interacting with a tropical wave NE of the LA islands shows some increased convection today. All of the models have picked up on a T-Wave or Cyclone moving from around 20N-60W into the SE Bahamas, across FL and exiting into the GOM over the next 3-5 days. Afterward, the GFS then stalls this feature in the eastern GOM. The globals have been predicting this scenario for days. The CMC/UKMET develop the system into a cyclone while the others GFS/NOGAPS retain an open wave. Since this system may not be truly warm core (i.e. tropical), the models may be picking up on baroclinic forcing to develop this storm. In that sense, this wave/ULL may become sub-tropical rather than purely tropical - or it may start off subtropical and transition to a tropical system in the Bahamas or GOM. Since this feature has strong global model support - it bears watching. At the very least, looks like some wet and windy weather for FL next week - we could sure use it in Tampa with the driest September on record.

http://www.ssd.noaa.gov/PS/TROP/DATA/RT/watl-ir4-loop.html


NONAME
(Weather Guru)
Fri Sep 30 2005 08:17 PM
Re: 20N-60W

FNMOC (I think is a Conterpart to Navy) now Labels 90L as 19L
Can some one see if navy says it 19L though also cause my computer wont let me on it sometimes
If it is True expect a Special Tropical Disturbance Statement Soon

FNMOC web page


Thunderbird12
(Meteorologist)
Fri Sep 30 2005 08:19 PM
TD 19

According to the NRL site, 90L is now T.D. 19.

Meanwhile, 99L continues to be a big, disorganized mess. The WV loop seems to indicate some sort of mid-level vort max over the Yucatan Channel, imparting some SWerly shear over the western portion of the system, with northerly shear continuing to the east. Surface pressures are low and there is plenty of low-level curvature evident in the VIS, so one big flare-up of convection somewhere near the center of the system could result in a depression forming. Time may be running out in the short term, as the center of the system will be approaching the Yucatan in another day or so.


Ed in Va
(Weather Master)
Fri Sep 30 2005 08:26 PM
Re: TD 19

Early guidance on 90L...outta here!
http://euler.atmos.colostate.edu/~vigh/guidance/atlantic/early1.png


Thunderbird12
(Meteorologist)
Fri Sep 30 2005 08:28 PM
Re: TD 19

TD 19 looks like a fish-spinner, and, in this potentially record season, a stat-padder.

NONAME
(Weather Guru)
Fri Sep 30 2005 08:32 PM
Re: TD 19

I Think there is spose to be a ridge biuld later in the forcast period in it might turn more westward so just wait tilnhc get it adviosory out. Well I catch up on this later tonight cause I am go to play in a football agains the easiest team maybe the freshman will get to play later ppl

what are you, like, typing with your tongue? honestly you can do better. anyhow, enjoy crashing into people.. -HF


MapMaster
(Weather Guru)
Fri Sep 30 2005 09:04 PM
Re: Just for fun

Take a look at this in the S. Atlantic....

http://weather.msfc.nasa.gov/GOES/goeseastfullir.html

Looks like we might be about to go into the oddball season, north and south of the equator.

MM

Link edited to go to satellite page -- the GHCC website doesn't allow you to directly link to a part of an image. --Clark


Clark
(Meteorologist)
Fri Sep 30 2005 09:11 PM
Re: Just for fun

Not sure what you're seeing there in the SAtlantic...I see a frontal wave coming off of the coast of southern Brazil that'll capture the weak vort max to its east. Nothing really tropical or close to it, though.

Margie
(Senior Storm Chaser)
Fri Sep 30 2005 09:46 PM
Re: Just for fun

Since I don't know much about this stuff...please tell me that the low, 99L, is not sliding far enough north this aft that it will miss the Yucatan, and go right over Cuba and into the GOM.

GuppieGrouper
(Weather Master)
Fri Sep 30 2005 11:00 PM
Re: Just for fun

Ok, the 99L is a model faux pas.

Susan in Jupiter, FL
(Verified CFHC User)
Sat Oct 01 2005 12:05 AM
Re: TD 19

Wonder why the Navy web site is showing TD 19 going north into Mobile? I think their site may be messed up........at least I sure hope so.......

http://tcweb.fnmoc.navy.mil/tc-bin/tc_home.cgi


andy1tom
(Storm Tracker)
Sat Oct 01 2005 12:40 AM
Re: TD 19

that is arlene. it is a old model. don't know whats up with that.

weatherwatcher999
(Verified CFHC User)
Sat Oct 01 2005 01:56 AM
Re: TD 19 Forms in the Eastern Atlantic

I'd say this will be Stan soon, and give or take a few days, the tropical wave in the caribbean sea will probably eventually develop...

Btw if anyone wanted to know (you probably do) there's a hurricane in the eastern pacific (otis), and it's churning towards baja california, and mexico-I know it's off topic, but just wanted to post it

This is my first post on flhurricane!


HanKFranK
(User)
Sat Oct 01 2005 04:00 AM
development-impaired

99L can't seem to get it together. after the impressive, sort-of-banding convection it had on its eastern side today the stuff puffed out again (that's what, four times now?) and has since been replaced by a blow up near the not-so-tight center. will that puff finally get the ball rolling down the hill? who knows? it's going to move over the yucatan either late tomorrow or tomorrow night, and be inland for a day or two. then i guess it gets a turn with the gulf if there's anything left.
so much for wannabe stan--the real thing appears to be in td 19 out in the eastern atlantic. hard to tell much about that system at night as it's still relatively formless on IR, just a persistent spot of deep convection. nhc will probably wait for unequivocal proof before upgrading this system.... maybe a second t-2.5 or a really convincing scatterometer pass. sometime tomorrow this ought to happen, unless it continues to look like an overzealous thunderstorm on color IR.
the trough/low out in front of it strung from the itcz at 40w up to the nw actually has a decent blow-up on it tonight... as elongated as it is i doubt it could do much very fast. there's that upper low between the canaries and azores that seems to be tunneling to the surface, which may go tropical given a couple of days to rethink its purpose. then there's the mess in the western atlantic which is supposedly going to coalesce into a something meaningful near/east of the bahamas over the next day or three. the shortwave has already sped away and snipped off some disturbed weather west of bermuda... more is firing on the north side of the upper low just north of puerto rico. as the heights rise to the north the pressures should fall in this area and give us something.... maybe just an easterly wave mock-up in the subtropics or maybe something more nefarious. i'm of the latter school of thought, but will freely admit that more globals show nothing than something.
anyhow, things are less busy than i was thinking they'd be earlier in the week, but there is stuff going on. 99L can still develop.. and there's a fish spinner depression revving up out beyond where they normally develop this time of year.
starting on october. three normal names left, which in a typical year would be enough.
HF 0400z01october


teal61
(Weather Hobbyist)
Sat Oct 01 2005 07:11 AM
Re: development-impaired

Wow, eclipse is over and boom a huge explosion of convection near 99l. Looks even like some banding features are developing. Will this be the beginning of TD 20 ?

ParrishNStPeteFL
(Verified CFHC User)
Sat Oct 01 2005 01:02 PM
Re: development-impaired

Quote:

Wow, eclipse is over and boom a huge explosion of convection near 99l. Looks even like some banding features are developing. Will this be the beginning of TD 20 ?




Speaking of eclipeses, there are actually two this month (October) the next one is supposed to be near the middle of the month. I wonder how the long term tropical outlook for the next two weeks will evolve. Of course there is also the Mars turning retrograde, and pulling back from the earth. I have a fascination with how the astronomical and planetary events have seemed to actually effect the intense and unpredicatable weather lately. Through out the season, and the year really, there have been some unpreceidented astronomical events (mind you im not talkin horoscopes here), planetary alignments, mars being closer to the earth than it has been in what they say is about 60,00 years, similar unusual activity has been occuring all year. Thoughts are welcome.

I also am very delighted to be able to participate in this forum, I have learned a lot about understanding the lingo and sats. I really enjoy watching the various storms personalities...they are each so unique/ One thing I noticed, however, when seeing the posts regarding the carribean system that has remaind the same for several days, so did a few of the other intense systems we have seen this year.

oppss missed a few 0's it should have been 60,000,000,000 years since mars has been this close to the earth.


GuppieGrouper
(Weather Master)
Sat Oct 01 2005 01:17 PM
Re: development-impaired

I would like to refer you to the storm forums page where there is a thread under forecast lounge that is discussing the astronomical influences on the weather. I think you would enjoy it. And could add your thoughts as well!

TDW
(Weather Watcher)
Sat Oct 01 2005 01:21 PM
Re: development-impaired

regarding the distances between Mars and Earth - I believe the closest approach was in 2003 and it was around the closest in 60,000 years. About every 26 months the Earth and Mars are on the same side of the sun. The next time Mars is closer than 2003 is 2287 with an even closer approach in 2729.

I'm not sure how much affect Mars has on systems on earth. The tidal force of Mars is about 1 million times less than the tidal force of the moon (even with Mars at its closest).

I saw a recent paper that mentions that meteor dust may have a significant infulence of weather patterns. It seems a 33 foot wide meteor last year was charted as it burned up in the atmosphere. It left 2.2 million pounds of dust in the atmosphere.


ParrishNStPeteFL
(Verified CFHC User)
Sat Oct 01 2005 01:36 PM
Re: development-impaired

Quote:

regarding the distances between Mars and Earth - I believe the closest approach was in 2003 and it was around the closest in 60,000 years. About every 26 months the Earth and Mars are on the same side of the sun. The next time Mars is closer than 2003 is 2287 with an even closer approach in 2729.

I'm not sure how much affect Mars has on systems on earth. The tidal force of Mars is about 1 million times less than the tidal force of the moon (even with Mars at its closest).

I saw a recent paper that mentions that meteor dust may have a significant infulence of weather patterns. It seems a 33 foot wide meteor last year was charted as it burned up in the atmosphere. It left 2.2 million pounds of dust in the atmosphere.





I appreciate all the feedback and that info...I have much to learn, always will..


Margie
(Senior Storm Chaser)
Sat Oct 01 2005 02:02 PM
Re: development-impaired

Oh my gosh I was right yest aft - 99L is headed for GOM according to 5:30pm update and latest sat images. But I did think the center of circ was further N than it turned out to be. But happily it won't hit the loop current; instead to continue to go west into all that dry air. I think recon would find a TD. Probably Dennis, Emily, Katrina, and Rita blew the recon budget for 2005.

Note -- if you can check out a sat image of typhoon Longwang, check it out...it is similar in strength right now to what Katrina was before she hit LA, and also has the same large eye, although it seems more compact than Katrina.


GuppieGrouper
(Weather Master)
Sat Oct 01 2005 02:29 PM
Re: development-impaired

I could easily be wrong, but, I don't think the invest is together enough to be certain where the center of circulation is unless they send a recon. But, maybe it will not develope any further.

Jamiewx
(Storm Tracker)
Sat Oct 01 2005 02:36 PM
TD 20

TD 20 has developed from 99L, according to NRL website.

Margie
(Senior Storm Chaser)
Sat Oct 01 2005 02:45 PM
Re: development-impaired

Quote:

I could easily be wrong, but, I don't think the invest is together enough to be certain where the center of circulation is unless they send a recon. But, maybe it will not develope any further.



I think the key criteria is whether it has a well-defined center of circ (it has a center of circ), because when I looked this morning, winds at buoy 42056 (centered at about 19.9N 85.0W) peaked at 25 kts when 99L slid by to the south last night, going from ENE to E to ESE. It looks like it is going past the buoy to the NW because winds are at 100deg (and winds have been increasing a little over the past hour, right now up to 23 kts) and have stayed a little higher than when they were going ENE. So the winds are certainly good enough. It looks like this was the deciding factor for the NHC this morning:

"SATELLITE IMAGES INDICATE THAT THE THUNDERSTORM ACTIVY REMAINS POORLY ORGANIZED"

Edit -- so it seems like NRL calls them a little earlier than NHC, but I haven't been doing this for very long, only a couple months.

So it if keeps going like this it is going to go right from a TD to a TS.

This is what I thought was going to happen, but like four days ago! But going over the warm Carribean water, I figured it would get to a TS sooner or later.

NHC TPC, at 10am, just put TD 20 up on their home page; also saw announcement on TWC at 10am.


Thunderbird12
(Meteorologist)
Sat Oct 01 2005 03:08 PM
Re: development-impaired

Looks like it is a race to see which system can claim the name Stan first. TD 19 is running out of time and may not even make it to tropical storm status. It doesn't look that great on satellite at the moment. TD 20 also has a limited window in the short-term, though it appears it will have another opportunity in the Gulf in a couple of days. Most of the model guidance seems to keep this system well south of the Texas/Mexico border, but things could obviously change.

Interesting to read in the discussion for TD 20 that frictional convergence over land may actually help the currently broad circulation tighten up, allowing it to strengthen more quickly over the Bay of Campeche when it re-emerges. It'll be interesting to see how that plays out.


Margie
(Senior Storm Chaser)
Sat Oct 01 2005 03:31 PM
Re: development-impaired

The discussion was funny! "THE LARGE LOW PRESSURE SYSTEM THAT HAS BEEN SLOWLY FESTERING OVER THE NORTHWESTERN CARIBBEAN SEA FOR THE PAST 4 DAYS"

True that NHC also mentions favorable outflow (really favorable!), low wind shear, and warm SSTs, once TD#20 gets into the GOM...but consider that there is really dry air there right now, and deep water temps not as favorable for a slow-moving storm. The best water is what it has been moving over right now. Even with lesson learned from Rita about the importance of very good outlfow, it would be surprising if this thing could make it up to Cat 2 before landfall in Mex.


typhoon_tip
(Meteorologist)
Sat Oct 01 2005 03:49 PM
Re: development-impaired

Quote:

The discussion was funny! "THE LARGE LOW PRESSURE SYSTEM THAT HAS BEEN SLOWLY FESTERING OVER THE NORTHWESTERN CARIBBEAN SEA FOR THE PAST 4 DAYS"

True that NHC also mentions favorable outflow (really favorable!), low wind shear, and warm SSTs, once TD#20 gets into the GOM...but consider that there is really dry air there right now, and deep water temps not as favorable for a slow-moving storm. The best water is what it has been moving over right now. Even with lesson learned from Rita about the importance of very good outlfow, it would be surprising if this thing could make it up to Cat 2 before landfall in Mex.




So, you think Mexico? Granted, both global and tropical based model camps suggest so and that is also the HPC solution... But, I find it intriguing that the models have had a left track bias to Katrina and subsequently Rita, too. This is important to me because both hurricanes developed more earnestly once the mid/U/A ridging over the E 1/3 of NA flexed into greater amplification. We see in the global based models over the last few days, a prediction for another positive anomaly slated to emerge over the lower Ohio Valley and spanning the greater aspect of the easter 1/3 of the contiguous US. In concernt, up underneath the tropical disturbance in question is finally labled a depression.

If there is any skill to using analog predictive tools this seasons behavior as a whole makes one weary of latching onto the left track. It is conceivable to me that we will have a slow moving system that averages a "slight" N component along its track, which integrated over time might mean that S Texas is not off the hook. Granted, no one has claimed that can't happen - this is by no mean argumentative - just to enlighten to another possibility, one that I believe has merti based on trends this later summer and autumn.


Margie
(Senior Storm Chaser)
Sat Oct 01 2005 03:57 PM
Re: development-impaired

Well trying to follow what you're saying -- I don't see how, with all the factors that play into increasing intensity, you can single out the ridging as being of special significance, for Katrina and Rita. Then, you didn't explain how that translates into a change in the track to the right of the model consensus.

typhoon_tip
(Meteorologist)
Sat Oct 01 2005 04:38 PM
Re: development-impaired

Quote:

Well trying to follow what you're saying -- I don't see how, with all the factors that play into increasing intensity, you can single out the ridging as being of special significance, for Katrina and Rita. Then, you didn't explain how that translates into a change in the track to the right of the model consensus.




The point I was making is pattern similarities... For whatever reason (and I leave that up to your keen mind to speculate) the pattern we've seen so persistently during this summer is statistically concurrent with the creation and movement through the GOM of these tropical disturbances...

Can't knock consistency...

It may indeed be merely coincidence but...here we are again with that same old pattern and a yet again, another GOM (or appr region) disturbance.

Trends are Meteorology 101 when it comes to track reasoning (not just for tropical systems, for all "modeled" atmospheric phenomenon)

Having said all that, 'What about the ridge substantiates more intensity'? I could speculate and suggest that it temporarily weakens whatever westerly shearing components between 20 and 30N latittude, which might prevail in the absence of such ridge amplification, but the subject needs more study. As far as 'Why a N component', my feeling in the matter is that the heights over the data sparse region of Old Mexico may have been and still are tending to be higher than models are seeing - again, date to corroborate this hypothesis? If so, the models would indeed assume a left bias, which is then corrected for in the shorter terms only at such times as a the N adjustments begin to verify and the data makes into subsequent (i.e., shorter lead-time) model runs.

In any event, I would not be surprised that just as other system in the GOM this late summer and autumn have behaved, this system ends up a little N of current thinking beyond 60 hours. Especially considering that the 11am advisory has repositioned the system a farther N of the previous estimate; a more N starting point will need to be conserved down the line.


HanKFranK
(User)
Sat Oct 01 2005 04:45 PM
Re: development-impaired

well i'm in the middle. it looks like a lot of the guidance they're going off of is the dynamic stuff that only works well for weaklings, 'cause the globals are still barely showing the system and naturally stuff weak systems into mexico. there haven't been any significant systems in that part of the gulf for better than a month, so oceanic heat content won't be a problem. as for the dry air mass... that is slowly being converted by its environment into something less hurricane-hostile. if y'all remember, katrina wasn't exactly dealing with a moist airmass either just after it crossed florida, and it spun up anyway.
the current nhc track is feasible if the system does little strengthening and moves as quickly as indicated. it's more likely that a stronger, more trough-responsive system will occur if it moves a little slower or strengthens more than indicated, and that would favor it coming further north. granted i still see the greatest likelihood of it going into ne mexico and retracing emily's path earlier this year, but if i was in texas i wouldn't be blowing this little fellow off.
last night i was thinking 'well, the caribbean thing is just about out of time, and the east atlantic feature has trumped it'. this morning the east atlantic depression blew apart and is hard to discern with all the chaotic cloud motions nearby (llc appears to be moving north, mlc from the convective blow up stuck in the itcz, outflow boundaries from the monsoon trough-like feature to the west blowing into it from that side, and northward bursts of wind/convection riding up the east side like little comets). and then of course the caribbean system finally crossed the threshold. it should be a postulate that i can think something for days, have it not materialize, finally give in, and have that outcome immediately occur.
anyhow, watching the disturbed weather near bermuda and to the south slowly moving closer together. believe the trigger for a westward-running system is in that somewhere. modeling has pretty much backed down in favor of another system that sort of develops near the florida straits and sits near florida/eastern gulf looking only quasi tropical (some of the globals have another caribbean feature, some just show that familiar easterly wave come running in from the east). thing is, they've all got something wrong: td 20 appears to be on course to develop into a significant tropical system in the western gulf, and none are showing the resultant feedback into the regional synoptic pattern. the upper low which was over florida earlier in the week, has moved into the western atlantic, and is now moving back... should deepen some if the tropical cyclone forces ridging to the southwest. amplify that, and the ridging to the east will amplify as well. and that's where our pattern-forced feature could possibly be.
it's a quirk i'll mention just because it could be one of the odder tracks you'll ever see if it develops.. but the hybrid type drill-down system that is moving west from the area near the canaries continues to become better defined... and modeling take it straight across the atlantic at that latitude to near bermuda late next week... where it appears to either set up to recurve or get blocked by high pressure again (maybe ready for another westward jog). it would be unusual to see a long westward track in the subtropics like that, so keeping an eye on this odd possibility. october is usually the month that produces odd-track systems (when they get repeatedly caught and released by mid-latitude shortwaves and such).
HF 1645z01october


typhoon_tip
(Meteorologist)
Sat Oct 01 2005 05:21 PM
Re: development-impaired

Quote:

well i'm in the middle. it looks like a lot of the guidance they're going off of is the dynamic stuff that only works well for weaklings, 'cause the globals are still barely showing the system and naturally stuff weak systems into mexico. there haven't been any significant systems in that part of the gulf for better than a month, so oceanic heat content won't be a problem. as for the dry air mass... that is slowly being converted by its environment into something less hurricane-hostile. if y'all remember, katrina wasn't exactly dealing with a moist airmass either just after it crossed florida, and it spun up anyway.

HF 1645z01october




Interesting thoughts...I agree with many of them..
I am also interested in what your thoughts are on soil moisture content over the Yucatan. It has been noted in years past that tropical disturbances in their formulative stages have demonstrated better survival during trek near that land mass, particularly when the year has been wetter than normal. Obviously, we know this is because rich soil moisture certainly does influence rate of decay rates for convection near the cores of these systems as they cross that land mass.


typhoon_tip
(Meteorologist)
Sat Oct 01 2005 05:26 PM
Re: development-impaired

...Also, interesting feature near 22N/61W... You've probably commented on this feature already but it does seem to be generating better convection near the center of obvious rotational axis.

Margie
(Senior Storm Chaser)
Sat Oct 01 2005 05:51 PM
Re: development-impaired

As always you have such good info, thanks much.

Regarding just one thing, "Katrina wasn't exactly dealing with a moist airmass either just after it crossed florida, and it spun up anyway" -- she really struggled with that dry air, and didn't really spin up until out of it, in spite of other favorable conditions.

Remember several folks here were sure Katrina would "blow up" as soon as she got off the western FL coast. Instead she really struggled, tenaciously hanging onto each pressure drop, for several days, but not able to get beyond Cat 2, in spite of the lower pressure, due mainly to dry air, and not until she got over the loop current was she able to strengthen enough to fight off the dry air and develop into a major hurricane. There is no loop current in the SW GOM, even with many other favorable conditions. The forecast path is very similar to Emily's for the portion over the Yucatan, and that took a lot out of Emily, which I believe hit as a solid Cat 3, but barely made it back up to Cat 3 at landfall in Mex. If this system goes faster after leaving the Yucatan, less time to spin up; if it goes slower, cooler water could well up and cap strengthening.

BTW a lot of convection blowup in the last couple hours for TD20. Since windspeed has increased back to 25kts and remained steady at buoy 42056, while the wind dir has not changed much (system is nearly stationary?), if they find winds at 35 kts at the center, could we be seeing Stan shortly with the recon?

Looking at the visual sat images, the shear pattern is a little weird (some areas of the storm have shear to the N, and some to the S). Can someone provide some general info about upper level winds, outflow, and shear above tropical storms/hurricanes.
well, i don't call the pressure falling from 985mb down to 950-ish with dry air intruding 'struggling', but yeah, it didn't really go off the deep end until the subsidence stream let up. as for upwelling slowing strengthening... uh, it would have to stall for days. and days. warm water column in the southern gulf is still pretty deep. opal barely moved for two days down there about ten years ago and wasn't any poorer for it. -HF


Steve H1
(Storm Tracker)
Sat Oct 01 2005 06:45 PM
Re: development-impaired

Agree with the model mess, they're not picking up the details because things are slowly evolving, and there are day-to-day changes. Models at 12Z now show a large area of low pressure from NE Florida throughout the entire GOM, with interspersed areas of lower pressure. They may focus in better in the next couple of days, or not. Still watching the convoluted area from Bermuda and south. Think something will eventually come of this, but exactly when and where to not easy. Seems TD 20 should catch fire, but I thought it would have happened by now. EPAC development should be translating to Atlantic development, but thought that would have started to occur already. A slow evolution right now, but things may change as soon as the ridge settles in. Cheers!!

GuppieGrouper
(Weather Master)
Sat Oct 01 2005 10:12 PM
Re: development-impaired

http://www.ssec.wisc.edu/data/us_comp/us_comp.html

Just clicked on the above satellite and I am wondering if anyone can tell me how fast that cold front is coming down from the Northwest in comparison to the forward speed and slow formation of the TD20. Is this going to influence the direction of the TD20 or will they pass in the night as strangers?


Steve H1
(Storm Tracker)
Sat Oct 01 2005 11:12 PM
Re: development-impaired

That's not gonna make it Mare. The aarea ne of Puerto Rico is trying to organize though and I'd watch that. The models do some funky things with it ....like semi-developing it east of Florida, then deepening it more when it gets in the GOM, then taking it back across north Florida and up the eastern seaboard. I think TD 20 is destined for the BOC. Cheers!!

GuppieGrouper
(Weather Master)
Sat Oct 01 2005 11:42 PM
Re: development-impaired

Thanks Steve. I am going to watch the stuff in the east. We have been really lucky this season so far. I just don't really want the Central Florida Area to be the grand finale. We are not hurting from direct hits this year yet but we are hurting due to all the economic fall out from last year combined with the prices going up due to the slams that the Gulf Coast has taken this year. Florida is more financially vulnerable to a significant storm high Tropical storm or greater than she was at the beginning of the season last year,.It probably does not make sense to anyone who does not live in the land of the fantasy and tourist trap. But, we citizens are strapped with tourist season prices all year round.

Margie
(Senior Storm Chaser)
Sat Oct 01 2005 11:52 PM
Re: development-impaired

Navy has upgraded to noname...do you think 7pm NHC advis will upgrade to Stan?

Has center reformed to the east?

Margie -- when a storm is listed as "NONAME," that indicates TD status. They will post an actual name if they feel it will be upgraded to TS status. --Clark


Steve H1
(Storm Tracker)
Sun Oct 02 2005 12:15 AM
Re: development-impaired

Hard to tell until this system gets more definition, but looks like its heading NW.

weatherwatcher999
(Verified CFHC User)
Sun Oct 02 2005 02:12 AM
Re: development-impaired

Ooh, TD 19 just got a big burst of convection in two places, it looks like a depression at least now, if not stan.
Haven't looked at 20 yet though...

I got a question also: What happens if both of these depressions become TS' at the same time??
Will the one that developed first be stan?


tpratch
(Moderator)
Sun Oct 02 2005 02:24 AM
Re: development-impaired

Officially, the one that forms first will get Stan - but what's more likely is that they'd give it to the one most likely to impact land first

Or else there's the ever-popular coin toss...


Storm Hunter
(Veteran Storm Chaser)
Sun Oct 02 2005 02:41 AM
Re: development-impaired

no stan tonight... in either system... but TD20 could become stan in next 12hrs or so...i think.. most likely in 5am in morning... will have stan

11pm
REPEATING THE 10 PM CDT POSITION...19.3 N... 87.0 W. MOVEMENT
TOWARD...WEST-NORTHWEST NEAR 6 MPH. MAXIMUM SUSTAINED
WINDS... 35 MPH. MINIMUM CENTRAL PRESSURE...1004 MB.


HanKFranK
(User)
Sun Oct 02 2005 04:26 AM
Re: development-impaired

they aren't going to upgrade 20 without strong evidence. there's radar coverage from cancun, the buoy, and whatever other recon they can get out there. the nhc will call it conservatively; for that reason i don't expect it to be upgraded before landfall... unless there's a 34kt wind or something suggestive of it, or maybe just a really sharpened satellite appearance.
out in the east atlantic 19 has a better look to it than earlier, but i agree with their keeping it a depression. the low level turning you can see in the exposed part of the cloud field isn't all that impressive. long term prog isn't a great one for this system as shear and cooler ssts should start killing it in a few days if the shear doesn't kill it outright or keep it in check in the short term. it may pull a lee and briefly make storm status, but it'll only amount to a statistic.
anyhow, 20 will be entering the BoC and all those comments about not being sure where it goes in a few days are well-founded. a lot of globals want to shove it into mexico by default, but the steering ridge that is building to the north right now may be gone by the time the storm is nearing mexico. some of the guidance stalls it and pushes it back to the east or northeast later in the coming week. there is also the issue of what else may be forming over there.. some of the globals suggest another system will try to develop in its wake by the middle of the week. on top of all that there's still a shot at something trying to form off the east coast. it wouldn't make sense for all of this to happen, so some variation of the mentioned events should take place. whether 20 goes into mexico or not, there's a general consensus on a system or wannabe system being centered somewhere between the yucatan channel and the outer banks by later next week.
still interested in the hybrid system near 25/35. models still tracking it far to the west. that's another statistic if anything comes of it.
expect weirdness as october is usually the month for such things.
HF 0426z02october


Storm Hunter
(Veteran Storm Chaser)
Sun Oct 02 2005 05:24 AM
Re: development-impaired

recon....

URNT11 KNHC 020435
97779 04254 10207 86000 15300 11032 16169 /2499
RMK AF304 0320A CYCLONE OB 05


Storm Hunter
(Veteran Storm Chaser)
Sun Oct 02 2005 05:33 AM
Re: development-impaired

well it's been an amazing season... for RAINEX as of October 1st: RAINEX has concluded its field operations)
i read alot of amazing stuff the last two months and i can only think there is more data to go through....visual too

Rainex 2005

i think some of you would like this web page.... Rita summary Day 3 ( of course this is when she was a cat 5)
Rita Day 3

**Check out Figure 11*** notice the "eyewalls"


Storm Hunter
(Veteran Storm Chaser)
Sun Oct 02 2005 06:26 AM
Re: development-impaired

well....


URNT12 KNHC 020619
VORTEX DATA MESSAGE
A. 02/05:47:10Z
B. 19 deg 33 min N
087 deg 14 min W
C. 850 mb 1463 m
D. NA kt
E. NA deg nm
F. 107 deg 039 kt
G. 045 deg 033 nm
H. 1004 mb
I. 18 C/ 1525 m
J. 17 C/ 1523 m
K. 17 C/ NA
L. NA
M. NA
N. 13 / 8
O. 0.02 / 6 nm
P. AF304 0320A CYCLONE OB 06
MAX FL WIND 39 KT N QUAD 04:43:40 Z
MAX FL TEMP 18 C, 45 / 33NM
POOR RADAR PRESENTATION


Storm Hunter
(Veteran Storm Chaser)
Sun Oct 02 2005 06:34 AM
Re: development-impaired

almost stan.... but not yet

URNT14 KNHC 020627
SUPPLEMENTARY VORTEX DATA MESSAGE
INBOUND
LAT LON jHHH TTDD ddfff
01206 10861 12498 11616 12032
02204 20863 22495 21715 12029
03203 30865 32491 31616 12028
04201 40867 42484 41716 11032
05200 50870 52476 51717 12027
06197 60871 62467 61717 15028
MF199 M0868 MF039 max flight level winds: inbound 39kts
OBS 01 AT 04:26:50Z
OBS 06 AT 05:41:50Z
OBS 01 SFC WND /////
OUTBOUND
LAT LON jHHH TTDD ddfff
01193 10873 12463 11616 23012
02191 20873 22470 21616 24016
03188 30873 32475 31816 24014
04185 40873 42478 41717 24015
05183 50873 52481 51717 24018
06180 60872 62480 61717 25025
MF181 M0871 MF040 max flight level winds: outbound 40kts
OBS 01 AT 05:52:50Z
OBS 06 AT 06:16:40Z
OBS 06 SFC WND /////
AF304 0320A CYCLONE OB 09


danielwAdministrator
(Moderator)
Sun Oct 02 2005 06:42 AM
Re: development-impaired

AF304 0320A CYCLONE
0621z 18.1N 087.0W 207deg at 051kts ,max wind052kts.


Storm Hunter
(Veteran Storm Chaser)
Sun Oct 02 2005 06:50 AM
Re: development-impaired

wow.... Hank looks to be right...there could be a system somewhere between cancun and cape hattera's....... the cmc 2005100200 run.... wants to bring something out of the bahama's, kinda like were Rita came from, and bring it across southern Fl and keep it in eastern GOM.... this seems interesting to me...... wouldn't expect anything to get too far west in GOM... with the next front approaching the se later this week.....

Storm Hunter
(Veteran Storm Chaser)
Sun Oct 02 2005 06:59 AM
Re: development-impaired

this is kinda weird... at the end of this run... look at the Fine Mesh Grid on the right.... GFDL twenty20l 2005100200

what's that north of cancun


Rubén
(Registered User)
Sun Oct 02 2005 07:02 AM
Re: development-impaired

That's 51 knts its at fly level? then at surface 46 knts? so Stan on board?

Rubén
(Registered User)
Sun Oct 02 2005 07:30 AM
Re: development-impaired

yes, Marine oficial...Stan on my way!!!
http://www.nrlmry.navy.mil/tc_pages/tc_home.html


Bloodstar
(Moderator)
Sun Oct 02 2005 08:35 AM
Stan 19 and the models

Well. NHC has Tropical Storm Stan on their main page as well, so if there was any lingering doubt... heh

19 is still firing up some fairly serious convection only to have it blasted away. so, it may, or may not, get to tropical storm strength.

Now, on to the question of the day.... The models are giving some crazy signals on the 00Zulu runs:

the CMC is bringing up a pretty strong storm in about 72 hours just off of tampa and driving it up the east coast.

GFDL is looping Stan around and bringing it up the *East* side of the Yucatan after abou 120 hours

GFDL is also brining 19 up to about 30N then looping it back down to the south at the end of the period. (while strengthening it to a hurricane...

GFS weakens Stan and 19, but then creates 2 spurious lows trekking across the atlantic.

meanwhile the MM5FSU stalls Stan in the BOC and strengthens it somewhat, and then has a weak feature near the islands in 5 days.

NOGAPS kills 19 off, and then there's a broad area of low pressure in the Gulf, possibly stalling Stan out, possibly something else entirely.

and finally UKM creates a low pressure near the Yucatan in about 4 days, After running Stan ashore.

So what in the world does it mean? Well, it looks like the models think something is going to happen in the Eastern Gulf in the next few days, as far as what the trigger will be, I have no clue right now, but most of the models see something there. Meanwhile 19 has a small window to become Tammy. But I think the NHC will hold off upgrading it unless there is very strong evidence to indicate it's a tropical Storm (after all, we now have only 3 names left, and the least thing we need are jokes about Beta Decay and Hurricane Delta changing, And I'm so not sticking around for Omega

So, I have no idea what's going to happen, but it seems like we have at least one more item that's going to be in the next few days.... that is if the models are picking up on something real and not just a feedback issue or some other spurious data...

-Mark


Rich B
(British Meteorologist)
Sun Oct 02 2005 09:30 AM
Re: Stan 19 and the models

Well Stan looks to be quite well organised, but really quite a broad system. This could work in its favor as it crosses the Yucatan in that for a large part of the time at least some part of its circulation should be over water - either the Caribbean or the GOM. But at the same time, friction could act to tighten up the circulation, so it is a bit of a two way split. It wouldnt be at all surprising to see a new centre develop over the GOM as the circulation approaches, especially if the larger circulation does not tighten up too much. Still, at the moment, rain will be the major problem... but once over the GOM it could become quite a strong system, especially if it stalls out as some models are now hinting at...

Regards



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