MikeCAdministrator
(Admin)
Sun Oct 09 2005 03:00 PM
Hurricane Vince forms in the Far Eastern Atlantic

5PM Update
Vince is now the season's 11th hurricane with winds of 75mph. Weakening is expected from here and it is still expected to become extratropical within 36hr.

Original Update
Tropical Storm Vince has formed in an unusual location for Atlantic storms, in the far east Atlantic off the coast of Spain and Portugal about 225 miles northwest of the Madeira Islands.



Vince holds the record of being the highest in the alphabet storm name ever reached in the Atlantic and makes the 2005 season the 2nd most active on record with 20 storms, following only 1933's 21 storm season.



More to come later.

Vince


97L


Hugh
(Senior Storm Chaser)
Sun Oct 09 2005 03:12 PM
Re: Tropical Storm Vince forms in the Far Eastern Atlantic

2005 will go down in history as not only the most active Atlantic hurricane season on record - but the strangest!

The NHC plots show Vince parelleling the coast, but several the computer models actually show the storm making landfall - in Portugal. I bet the global warming enthusiasts are going to have a field day with this one.

With the Caribbean acting up this morning, Wilma likely is not far off (even if one of the current invests does not form into a tropical cyclone, something probably will sooner rather than later)... which pretty much means we'll be looking at Alpha before November 1 unless things get quiet in a hurry.


HanKFranK
(User)
Sun Oct 09 2005 03:53 PM
oddball

wasn't expecting they'd classify it, but the persistent eye feature and convective ring with complete occlusion for two days has been waaaay too convincing. those dynamic models pushing it northeast to the iberian peninsula don't agree with any of the globals.. which all turn it nne into an oncoming trough. the official taking it up towards ireland and having it absorbed near 40n is probably the right answer--not much push directly ne.
subtd 22 was quickly declassified last night, but is moving more slowly wnw this morning. still a weak puff of convection, but this is a badly sheared system and i don't totally disagree with nhc dropping it (though it was a bit hasty). strange thing is that more of the global models actually track it now, up towards the nc coast. only chances that it redevelops though would involve the upper low moving nw over it and it becoming re-established in the light-shear zone of the core... or it getting through the subsidence/shear double whammy on the western periphery of the upper trough. it's probably done.
94L persists, looking a tad worse for the wear. it's near 14/54 now plodding ever westward. the environment ahead is supporting a lot of convection, so in another day or two it could potentially become involved with all that. somewhat better chances that it weakens further and fades out.
have to watch the five o clock to ten o clock sweep around that upper low as it's supporting lots of convection and especially because there's some antecedent turning in the low levels along this region. nothing much right now, but there are some interesting-looking areas near the bahamas.
really interesting way to get vince, too.
HF 1553z09october


typhoon_tip
(Meteorologist)
Sun Oct 09 2005 03:53 PM
Re: Tropical Storm Vince forms in the Far Eastern Atlantic

Quote:

2005 will go down in history as not only the most active Atlantic hurricane season on record - but the strangest!

The NHC plots show Vince parelleling the coast, but several the computer models actually show the storm making landfall - in Portugal. I bet the global warming enthusiasts are going to have a field day with this one.

With the Caribbean acting up this morning, Wilma likely is not far off (even if one of the current invests does not form into a tropical cyclone, something probably will sooner rather than later)... which pretty much means we'll be looking at Alpha before November 1 unless things get quiet in a hurry.




...Strange, because we've actually seen no Cape Verdi transits.. It's been all "Bahama Bombers".

Sadly, the GW enthusiasts probably will blow this out of proportion. Before they do, they should take note of the fact that this system has been persisting over waters that are text-book too cool to support a tropical transition fully, and it is more likely that unique stagnant circumstances have evolved over 24.5C waters to bring a hybrid to bear.

But, as long as we are on the subject of odd-ball features... did you know that there was the first ever hurricane to ever make landfall on the eastern shores Brazil in South America in April 2004?

The Caribbean looks bizarre... Strange sat presentation making it difficult to determine what's really going on.. Looks at times like a TW's are stalling, other times like a old frontal drapes are sticking around as triggers for deep convection. What I think is of utmost concern (or rather should be) is the potent mid-level low that has evolved N of Puerto Rico. This thing is whipping around at a good clip over waters around 28C. Things to look for: deep convection migrating into the core. As it is, the remnant swirl of Tammy was rotating around the N wall of the large cyclonic gyre, like a solar system around a galaxy (beautiful satellite!).. Close up view provided by http://www.ssd.noaa.gov/PS/TROP/DATA/RT/float-vis-loop.html shows that the llv is escaping the clutches of the larger system however... Also, given that there is still occasional plumes of convection popping off my personal opinion is that HPC dropped the ball too fast... It seems this feature could continue to migrate away up underneath a more favorable enivronment that exists NW; although, in their defense they said last night there was a "remote" possibility for regeneration... In any event, the CMC model is now gaining company in depicting the large U/A low to gradually acquire subtropical characteristics over the next 2 days, and with blocking persisting over the N Atlantic and a well teleconnected weakness near/off the SE U.S. Coast, this would likely impart a westward movement should such a feature truly evolve... It's going to be a fun week!


Clark
(Meteorologist)
Sun Oct 09 2005 05:37 PM
Re: Tropical Storm Vince forms in the Far Eastern Atlantic

Vince's formation isn't all that much unlike the S. Atlantic storm last season. It'll meet up with baroclinic sources before making landfall, unlike the S. Atlantic storm, but it's an interesting system nonetheless. The persistent eye-like feature probably forced the NHC's hand.

It's not really the SSTs that are the sole contributor to tropical cyclone development in the midlatitudes -- instead, it is the temperature differential between the SSTs and the upper-levels. If a system has colder-than-normal temperatures at the top of the troposphere, it can over come less-than-critical SSTs to form into a tropical cyclone. Obviously, this requires low shear and all of the other factors that lead to tropical cyclone formation!

Nevertheless, it's rare to have any tropical system east of 20W. The map we made for the season only went out to to 20W, as I didn't think we'd need anything in the teens. Shows how much I know!


Rabbit
(Weather Master)
Sun Oct 09 2005 05:51 PM
Re: Tropical Storm Vince forms in the Far Eastern Atlantic

it looks to me like SubTD 22 is beginning to regenerate, and to me looks like a tropical storm at the moment . There is a fairly tight circulation center and deep convection rather close to it. This looks better organized than Cindy in 1999 while a 60mph TS (i bring that one up because it had a similar satellite appearance)

22L


Beaumont, TX
(Storm Tracker)
Sun Oct 09 2005 06:06 PM
Re: Tropical Storm Vince forms in the Far Eastern Atlantic

This has been a really interesting season. Think they will use all of the names on the list? Lots of records set this season.
Can someone explain to me about the different eyewalls in a storm? Supposedly, Rita had three, one that hit Orange and Newton
County, a second that hit Beaumont, and then a third which hit all of Southeast Texas. The storm lasted a long time with winds
starting on Friday and not stopping until I think late Saturday or Sunday. Also, do storms ever form in the Caribbean this late
in the year?


Lysis
(User)
Sun Oct 09 2005 06:21 PM
Re: Tropical Storm Vince forms in the Far Eastern Atlantic

Actually, this is generally the time where we look to the Caribbean in lieu of other basins, as the “African wave train”, so-called, shuts down. A system at Vince’s latitude would be rare at any time of the year though.

Three eyewalls, eh? I am not sure what you are referring to with that one. Mature hurricanes like Rita undergo what is known as concentric eyewall replacement cycles. This may be what you are talking about. There are a few threads in the hurricane ask/tell forum that talk at length about ewrcs’.
In hurricane charley, for example, where such a structure was pretty defined, the winds became moderately bad, cleared up a bit between the outer eyewall, and then the major stuff hit. It's all gonna’ be in a big circle though... so your talk of different 'eyes' hitting different locations on a horizontal axis is throwing me off.



EDIT: I didn't want to make a whole new post out of this as I was sort of off topic allready. I have a pertinant question:

The various visible goes loops I’m looking at leave allot to be desired, especially considering how tiny the thing is. While a quikscat pass or something is fine for most of you, it drives me nuts that we have history in the making, and I have no way to capture the aesthetics, so to speak. If Mike or someone else would offer a few alternatives (if they exist), I would be greatly appreciative.


Old Sailor
(Storm Tracker)
Sun Oct 09 2005 07:28 PM
Re: Tropical Storm Vince forms in the Far Eastern Atlantic

I feel after it's all said and done Vince will become a Hurricane, just an old sailors gut feel..

Dave


Clark
(Meteorologist)
Sun Oct 09 2005 07:57 PM
Re: Tropical Storm Vince forms in the Far Eastern Atlantic

The 18Z models were initalized at 60kt -- 70mph -- with a pressure of 991mb. Wouldn't be surprised to see it peak at minimal hurricane intensity; it has the organization to do so and rapid swings up and down are possible with these very small tropical cyclones. It'll probably go out in a hurry when it does, but it's pretty close to some of those "furthest east" records right now.

Edit: they did go with 65kt/75mph -- hurricane intensity -- at 5p. It's not so much that the storm has intensified (though it probably has a little) as they are likely catching up to it's prior intensity.


Rabbit
(Weather Master)
Sun Oct 09 2005 08:47 PM
Re: Tropical Storm Vince forms in the Far Eastern Atlantic

about the latitude, it is not all that odd to see a storm at that latitude, it is due east of North Carolina. The unusual part about the latitude is how far east it formed at 34N

latest advisory is Hurricane Vince, 75 mph, 987mb


NONAME
(Weather Guru)
Sun Oct 09 2005 08:53 PM
Hurricane Vince Where!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I wonder what Europe thinks of Hurricane Vince if they even know about what are the chances it will hit Europe as at least a tropical storm or depression that be really scary if it hit as a hurricane.

Rich B
(British Meteorologist)
Sun Oct 09 2005 09:24 PM
Re: Hurricane Vince Where!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well i live in Europe (well actually the UK but part of Europe i guess) and i think i can safely say most of Europe is blissfully unaware that there is a Hurricane heading towards Portugal. Admitedly, it almost certainly wont hit land as a Hurricane, but the NHC forecast track has it coming pretty close to the northern coast of Portugal by late Monday night or early Tuesday. Additionally, the Madeira Islands which are a Portugese territory, are pretty close to this one, and the outer bands have been affecting the islands with wind gusts to 39 mph - Tropical Storm force! I think there is the remote possibility that it may make landfall as a weak Tropical Storm, but it will have to hold off against increasingly cool SST's and an increasingly hostile upper-level environment. If it does reach mainland Europe as a classified system, i guess it will be yet another 1st

Regards


Thunderbird12
(Meteorologist)
Sun Oct 09 2005 09:48 PM
Re: Tropical Storm Vince forms in the Far Eastern Atlantic

I don't know about Rita having three eyewalls, but it did appear to have a partial inner-eyewall to the north and a partial outer-eyewall to the south when it came ashore, the result of a poorly executed eyewall replacement cycle. The inner core of Rita was disorganized when it hit land, but very intense convection on the northern eyewall kept it from weakening very quickly.

dave foster
(Weather Hobbyist)
Sun Oct 09 2005 09:58 PM
Re: Hurricane Vince Where!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Some of us do that's for sure. But, as Rich pointed out, it's unlikely that most Europeans will ever find out about it - it's rather unusual to get hurricanes in this neck of the woods as you know. Having said that I recall some years ago when the UK was hit by a hurricane ( or more correctly, hurricane-force winds of over 100mph). Search the web and you will find stories and pictures of Cornwall (an English county) that took the brunt of it.

Check out the site for the lastest tracking with Google Earth.


Lysis
(User)
Sun Oct 09 2005 10:31 PM
Re: Hurricane Vince Where!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I was really interested in HF storms a while back. There are actually a dozen or two HF (hurricane force) extratropical cyclones each year, with most allegedly coming out of the mid-latitudes. January is their climatological peak for the North Atlantic. Interestingly, observations show that the storms are stronger pressure wise in our basin than in the North Pacific. I still don't really understand all the meteorology associated with them, but (correct me if I am wrong) they are defined by an extreme temperature gradient that surrounds the low. Hurricane conditions are always found to the immediate south (the ‘cold’ side) of the secluded warm center, and are generally not far removed like we are used to thinking. To accent on Dave's comments, if you are interested, do some research on the 87' England storm, which is probably the most infamous. They are difficult to forcast, and alot of people were caught offguard.

Margie
(Senior Storm Chaser)
Sun Oct 09 2005 10:37 PM
Re: Tropical Storm Vince forms in the Far Eastern Atlantic

Quote:

It's not really the SSTs that are the sole contributor to tropical cyclone development in the midlatitudes -- instead, it is the temperature differential between the SSTs and the upper-levels. If a system has colder-than-normal temperatures at the top of the troposphere, it can over come less-than-critical SSTs to form into a tropical cyclone.



Thanks for explaining because I was wondering about that.

I've been going to the navy site because can't find any other sat images of Vince. What a petite perfectly-formed cat 1 hurricane. This has got to be one of the front-runners for the strangest season on record.


josef
(Registered User)
Sun Oct 09 2005 10:39 PM
Re: Hurricane Vince forms in the Far Eastern Atlantic

Hello!
My name is Josef, am portuguese and live in Oporto-Portugal. A few minutes ago i see in cable tv an information about a possible hurricane "Vince" here in Portugal.
Someone tel me if it´s possible?
And, if "Vince" toutch Portugal what are the consequenses, because Portugal don´t have a history of this kind of problems.
Sorry my english. Thanks.


Hugh
(Senior Storm Chaser)
Sun Oct 09 2005 10:46 PM
Re: Hurricane Vince forms in the Far Eastern Atlantic

Quote:

Hello!
My name is Josef, am portuguese and live in Oporto-Portugal. A few minutes ago i see in cable tv an information about a possible hurricane "Vince" here in Portugal.
Someone tel me if it´s possible?
And, if "Vince" toutch Portugal what are the consequenses, because Portugal don´t have a history of this kind of problems.
Sorry my english. Thanks.




Josef,
Well, it's hard to say because it's never happened before, at least not in recorded history. Based upon the satellite images, Vince is a very tiny hurricane so the area of impact will likely be relatively small, and the storm SHOULD weaken - the water in the northeast Atlantic just isn't warm enough to support tropical storms or hurricanes. Of course, neither is the water of the southwest Atlantic, where there was an unnamed hurricane in 2004. Heck, this year has just been so strange. My best advice would be to pay attention to the local weather people.

By the way folks.... it looks like STD 22 may yet live again....


dave foster
(Weather Hobbyist)
Sun Oct 09 2005 10:50 PM
Re: Hurricane Vince forms in the Far Eastern Atlantic

Look at my website Josef. You will see that Vince is pointing towards the top of Portugal.
I think there is a very good chance that winds will not be as strong when it gets nearer.


josef
(Registered User)
Sun Oct 09 2005 10:54 PM
Re: Hurricane Vince forms in the Far Eastern Atlantic

Ok Hugh.
My question it´s because on tv, here in Porto, thay said de notice. When we see the images of Katrina we think the same problems in Portugal. But, your experience tell is not possible the same problems with Vince!?
May be, only a lot of rain?


Hugh
(Senior Storm Chaser)
Sun Oct 09 2005 11:06 PM
Re: Hurricane Vince forms in the Far Eastern Atlantic

Quote:

Ok Hugh.
My question it´s because on tv, here in Porto, thay said de notice. When we see the images of Katrina we think the same problems in Portugal. But, your experience tell is not possible the same problems with Vince!?
May be, only a lot of rain?




Josef,

I'm not going to tell you that it's not possible that Portugal could experience the same types of things that the Gulf Coast had happen with Katrina, because I can't predict the future. However, it's extremely likely that Vince will weaken before it impacts Europe. Even if it maintained the current intensity, that is significantly weaker than Katrina was when it slammed into Louisiana and Mississippi. Not that a hurricane in Europe can ever be considered "weak" of course.

One thing of note... yesterday no one was paying any attention to what is now Vince. It's possible that it couldd fissle out just as quickly as it formed and became semi-tropical - although I have to say looking at the satellite imagery it does not appear to be weakening... but it might even get a bit stronger in the very short term.


josef
(Registered User)
Sun Oct 09 2005 11:09 PM
Re: Hurricane Vince forms in the Far Eastern Atlantic

Dave, the ºC of whater in Portugal ( South) it´s betewen 21º-25º Celsius. In Madeira Islands the same.It´s possible Vince became more strong today ( Monday in Portugal) or your experience tells it´s imposible.

josef
(Registered User)
Sun Oct 09 2005 11:16 PM
Re: Hurricane Vince forms in the Far Eastern Atlantic

If i ask you Hugh or Dave, what are de % of possible VInce toutch Oporto city with strong wins and rains, you tellm me what?

josef: not much possibility vince is strong when it comes by. a normal ocean storm is going to be swallowing vince as it nears portugal/spain. it should weaken. a little windy/rainy should be your weather on tuesday october 11. nothing like katrina--would need very warm ocean. -HF


Lysis
(User)
Sun Oct 09 2005 11:29 PM
Re: Hurricane Vince forms in the Far Eastern Atlantic

Yo, Josef. Vince is an itty bitty hurricane, and due to its location, info on the actual intensity is hardly going to be definitive.

Hurricanes are as strong as their surrounding have the ability to sustain them. The magic temp for development is 26.5 C, but the situation with Vince is a bit more complicated, as noted earlier, and not wholly dependent upon the water temperature. I just want to assure you that this isn’t the same deal as Katrina and all the horrible images that have come out of the Northern Gulf Coast, so you don't need to panic or anything.

You can check the NHC for maps and discussions, and feel free to ask here if you have any questions.


La Nimo
(Weather Watcher)
Sun Oct 09 2005 11:33 PM
Re: Tropical Storm Vince forms in the Far Eastern Atlantic

Old Sailor, good call on Vince nobody was calling for a cane except you. You think Vince will stay a Hurricane to land fall?

typhoon_tip
(Meteorologist)
Sun Oct 09 2005 11:41 PM
Re: Tropical Storm Vince forms in the Far Eastern Atlantic

Clark,
That is true, it is more important to note the sounding data for profiling what environments are conducive.. In fact, I'm sure you have heard of "Arctic Low" phenomenon as well... Very similar, very fascinating.

The fact of the matter is (which from the sounds of it you are aware) the very distinction between cyclones is a complicated one...

The lowest common denominator is the corriolis force...So long as you have upward moving air and convergent replacement at the surface, that is all you really need... Don't mean to preach to the quire but there are multiple reasons to get this upward moving air going; tropical mechanics are just one.. What is really amazing about all this is that you can start out with a baroclinic system and end up with a barotropic one (1991) if conditions are right. In fact, on on-camera meteorologist friend of mine has often said (and I agree) that you almost cannot have a hurricane moving into middle latittudes and interacting with the westerlies without some kind of hybrid argument...

Trust me; you know a lot!
Peace


typhoon_tip
(Meteorologist)
Sun Oct 09 2005 11:50 PM
Re: Tropical Storm Vince forms in the Far Eastern Atlantic

If anyone's interested the following link has some awesome Vince - sat, etc.
http://cimss.ssec.wisc.edu/tropic/real-time/atlantic/storm/storm2.html


Margie
(Senior Storm Chaser)
Sun Oct 09 2005 11:51 PM
Re: Hurricane Vince forms in the Far Eastern Atlantic

Josef, it looks like you shouldn't be worried. You can view the National Hurricane Center Advisories and Discussions here:

http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/

Also the latest advisory is posted on this web site, in the upper LH corner.

What you should ALWAYS go by is the NHC information and your local weather statements. These are the official forecast statements and NHC has an extremely good track record.

From the 5pm advisory:

...MAINLY A HAZARD FOR MARINE INTERESTS IN THE FAR EASTERN
ATLANTIC...

and

VINCE
IS FORECAST TO GRADUALLY WEAKEN ON MONDAY

And from the discussion:

A COLD FRONT IS SEVERAL HUNDRED N MI NORTHWEST OF VINCE... AND AS THE FRONT CONTINUES ITS EASTWARD MARCH ACROSS THE NORTHERN ATLANTIC... IT SHOULD PULL VINCE NORTHEASTWARD AT A GRADUALLY INCREASING FORWARD SPEED. MOST OF THE DYNAMICAL MODELS AGREE WITH THIS SCENARIO AND SUGGEST THAT VINCE WILL BE ABSORBED BY THE FRONT IN ABOUT 36 HOURS


weatherwatcher999
(Verified CFHC User)
Mon Oct 10 2005 12:19 AM
Re: Hurricane Vince forms in the Far Eastern Atlantic

It's interesting that vince has an eye, it actually looks pretty similar to a well-defined major hurricane, or typhoon (generally). I've never seen any tropical cyclone form that far east, and be a threat to europe(!).

Thankfully it looks like this cold front will absorb it, before anything bad happens to portugal... but it's pretty interesting that a tropical storm (almost mid-latitude) had an eye


danielwAdministrator
(Moderator)
Mon Oct 10 2005 12:24 AM
Re: Hurricane Vince forms in the Far Eastern Atlantic

Josef, I'm unable to find any topography maps of Oporto.
The Douro River would be the greatest concern.
For two reasons. 1-The slight possibility of a tidal surge from the winds blowing ahead of Hurricane Vince. And 2-possible river flooding from excessive rainfall.
So areas near the Douro River and any streams that flow into the Douro river could be in danger of flooding, either from rainfall or from water being pushed ahead of the storm.

The location of the storm, it's motion toward Oporto, and the location of landfall would be the determining factors on which would be the greatest hazard.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/tempusfugit/marine/gmdss.htm
http://www.inag.pt/
http://www.eumetsat.int/idcplg?IdcService=SS_GET_PAGE&nodeId=444&l=en
http://oiswww.eumetsat.org/~idds/images/out/20051009_230000_08_IR-108-2_1.jpg

Images are "Copyright 2005 EUMETSAT"~danielw


Old Sailor
(Storm Tracker)
Mon Oct 10 2005 12:32 AM
Re: Tropical Storm Vince forms in the Far Eastern Atlantic

Another area been looking at with interest , Some of the PAO/DD2 Naval Models showing a Cat 1 or 2 just off the New England Coast 6 to 7 days out. These models are off limits to all but field grade rank and retired field rank. Cmdr or higher grade.

Margie
(Senior Storm Chaser)
Mon Oct 10 2005 12:38 AM
Re: Hurricane Vince forms in the Far Eastern Atlantic

Encarta has some limited topography:

http://encarta.msn.com/map_701515761/Portugal.html


dave foster
(Weather Hobbyist)
Mon Oct 10 2005 12:46 AM
Re: Hurricane Vince forms in the Far Eastern Atlantic

Try Google Earth Daniel. You can fly up the Douro river, admire the scenery and have a constant read-out of the topography.

HanKFranK
(User)
Mon Oct 10 2005 02:22 AM
vince/22L/94L

take on vince is that it peaked earlier today and will be downgraded to a t.s. at 11pm. the eye/convective ring has broken down in recent sat images. if it starts looking less tropical the nhc will likely declassify it quickly, as it's way out in left field already. shear is impacting the system but not moving it yet, so it'll probably weaken a lot shortly. maybe come non-convective as it gets over cooler water. i'd expect it to get called extratropical tomorrow one way or another. ultimate track probably close to nw spain, but i don't think the remnant will landfall. should be quite a rain event, though.
the old subtropical depression threw a single convective burst for quite a time today. it may be distancing itself from the strong easterly shear jet around the upper low to its SE, so it may redevelop if it can throw some convection. nhc will probably ignore it unless it makes a very convincing effort at developing convection. whether it redevelops or not, the low pressure should be off the mid atlantic coast as that large high builds in.. may stall and then jerk west or southwest thereafter.
94L is showing good convective action again but has troughed out at the surface. good diffluent/convergent atmosphere ahead, so it may add its contribution to the disturbed weather in the caribbean or serve as a focal mechanism for low pressure to develop.
other side of the upper low is an area of disturbed weather in the bahamas. there's a narrow anticyclone and modest low level convergence, so it may be a troublemaker if it persists.
as far as what old sailor said about a hurricane being off the east coast and potentially threatening the northeast coast this week... there are various models depicting a deep storm that looks tropical in origin moving up around there, sure enough. not much agreement on exactly how it forms, but the synoptic pattern would potentially support a storm getting up there. definitely stay tuned.
been watching the long-range pattern we should see later this month.. seeing some things that have me very interested, but want to see some more consistency before i get carried away with them... if you want a clue why i'm interested, check the 18z gfs runs around 8-10 days out.
HF 0222z10october


bulletdodger
(Registered User)
Mon Oct 10 2005 02:47 AM
Re: Hurricane Vince forms in the Far Eastern Atlantic

I just cant believe what has happened this year alone with the tropics. I look at all the facts and it just awes me. I guess this is just another one to the record books.

danielwAdministrator
(Moderator)
Mon Oct 10 2005 08:53 AM
Season

I was just watching the Weather Channel and thinking the same thing. I had forgotten about the Christmas Day Snow in New Orleans.
Now we have a classified storm near the Azores and Portugal. At the same time Colorado is having a mid October, 2 day Winter Storm.

Hank, as usual...I think you are on to something there. The cooler temps are welcome here in the Coastal Areas...to some degree. There are still Katrina victims camping outdoors, along with Recovery Personnel from the Lower 48 States.
The last few nights of cool weather here, should cool off the GOM near-shore waters.


josef
(Registered User)
Mon Oct 10 2005 09:08 AM
Re: Season

Hello again,
Portuguese radio and tv´s give this information: The Vince is gone. No problems with de TS Vince because in next 12 hours he die.
It´s true?
In this moment in Oporto rain, and the temperature it´s 21ºC.
Thanks.


josef
(Registered User)
Mon Oct 10 2005 09:20 AM
Re: Season

Now, I take this from Meterra II site about Vince:
"PORTO, SAO VICENTE :
BECOMING CYCLONIC 8 TO 10 WITH VIOLENT GUSTS, BECOMING SOUTHWEST 5
TO 7 LATER. VIOLENT GUSTS. ROUGH OR VERY ROUGH".

Can someone define whts´s hapen in tuesday in Oporto city?
Thanks.


Steve H1
(Storm Tracker)
Mon Oct 10 2005 12:05 PM
Re: vince/22L/94L

Think we'll be watching the western Caribbean next weekend. EC and some of the other globals have been showing things on and off, and this is a climatologically favored area. There is popcorn convection there this morning, but I think later this week it could get interesting. Old 94L is still sparking convection as well. We'll see. Wish we could get some drier air into Florida this week, but I don't see that happening anytime soon. Cheers!!

Domino
(Weather Guru)
Mon Oct 10 2005 12:07 PM
Re: Hurricane Vince forms in the Far Eastern Atlantic

Okay so I leave Manila and go to Europe...(Holland to be exact) and you guys send a hurricane for me?!? Europe is the last place I ever imagined to see a hurricane headed. Although it wouldn't really effect the countries I get TV from except as rain (France, Holland, Germany) I have yet to see any mention of this storm on local tv.

*runs for antarctica*


Ed DunhamAdministrator
(Former Meteorologist & CFHC Forum Moderator (Ed Passed Away on May 14, 2017))
Mon Oct 10 2005 02:46 PM
Re: Hurricane Vince forms in the Far Eastern Atlantic

Be careful about over-reacting on this system. Vince was an unusual hurricane, he is now a tropical storm, and in less than 24 hours I'm pretty sure that the increasing wind shear will reduce this system to a tropical depression. The system is so small that he'll probably have his remnants absorbed by a front long before any potential landfall can occur.

Thanks to all for the excellent feedback to Josef.
ED


dave foster
(Weather Hobbyist)
Mon Oct 10 2005 03:04 PM
Re: vince/22L/94L

Quote:

Wish we could get some drier air into Florida this week, but I don't see that happening anytime soon. Cheers!!




Sorry, don't quite understand that statement. Florida has been covered by dry air for the last few days.

http://www.ssd.noaa.gov/PS/TROP/DATA/RT/gmex-wv-loop.html


weatherwatcher999
(Verified CFHC User)
Mon Oct 10 2005 03:11 PM
Re: Hurricane Vince forms in the Far Eastern Atlantic

Yeah, they just released the 11 AM advisory, and it's barely a ts now... most likely the 5pm advisory will be the last.

Whoa, check out http://www.ssd.noaa.gov/PS/TROP/DATA/RT/watl-vis-loop.html.

Look at the 14:15 UTC image, and around 15N, 77W, it looks like there's the number 2 imbedded into the tropical wave there-don't zoom though.

It adds to this "weird weather period", lol.


josef
(Registered User)
Mon Oct 10 2005 03:36 PM
Re: Hurricane Vince forms in the Far Eastern Atlantic

Well, in this moment i can tell Vince is gone, and Portugal don´t have problems with him.
Tanks for everybody and I when you go travel, visit Portugal, and came to Oporto city. We heve the first wine in the world and a fantastic old city. If you like soccer, we have F.C.Porto.
Thanks.


Steve H1
(Storm Tracker)
Mon Oct 10 2005 03:57 PM
Re: vince/22L/94L

Maybe at the upper and mid levels, but here at the surface, believe me, its humid. Got soaked with sweat running from one building to another at work.

emackl
(Storm Tracker)
Mon Oct 10 2005 09:05 PM
Re: vince/22L/94L

I noticed Navy has 97L up. Is that new or have I been out of the loop. The models are shooting it north. Could that be what the globals are picking up on?

Jackie


josef
(Registered User)
Mon Oct 10 2005 09:16 PM
Re: vince/22L/94L

Hello again,
Of this moment in Porto rain much and the meteo said the wins go to 100 kh tomorrow, but the the vince is desapear before toutch land. You agree ?


Bloodstar
(Moderator)
Mon Oct 10 2005 09:43 PM
Re: vince/22/94L ... 97L?

Got a link to 97?

I see 22L is still poking out convection, stubborn sucker despite the shear over it. the LLC is still fairly well defined, and still pushing out winds of 25 to 30Kts

Vince, we hardly knew ya.

94 is still churning along doing not much of anything.

maybe 97L is the ULL that's south of 22...?

-Mark


OrlandoDan
(Weather Master)
Mon Oct 10 2005 10:33 PM
Re: vince/22L/94L

It is quite humid in Florida. I was golfing at my local golf course yesterday north of Orlando. I forgot to set the parking break and went to the on-course restrooms. When I came out, my cart had rolled into some heavy quagmire. While waiting for some course employed boys to pull me out, I stood there, on the cart path, in a heavily foliaged low lying area. The sweat was just pouring off of me and I was in the shade the whole time. The course was just soaked. The fairways had deep tire tracks and I almost got stuck about three times. It is overcast right now with a temperature of 83.1 F and humidity of 79%.

dave foster
(Weather Hobbyist)
Mon Oct 10 2005 10:43 PM
Re: vince/22L/94L

Well, I wouldn't have believed it from the look of that map. Just goes to prove how poor my weather map reading skills are at the moment. I'm hoping that the more I look at them the better I'll get at reading them, but it looks like that's going to be next season at the rate I'm going...

emackl
(Storm Tracker)
Mon Oct 10 2005 11:21 PM
Re: vince/22/94L ... 97L?

Here ya go!

http://tcweb.fnmoc.navy.mil/tc-bin/tc_home.cgi


Hugh
(Senior Storm Chaser)
Tue Oct 11 2005 02:53 AM
Re: vince/22/94L ... 97L?

Well... it's official: He** has frozen over.
A tropical storm - albeit a very small one, the first-ever "V"-named storm in the Atlantic Basin... will soon make landfall - as a tropical storm - in Portugal. Can this season get any stranger?

I don't see anything else threatening right now, thankfully. STD 22 still looks like it should be warranting advisories again if Vince is - 22 actually looked more impressive than Vince earlier today, but maybe it's just my eyesight. The only other invest at NRL is 94L, and it looks like a mess, but a disorganized mess. What is this 97L I read someone talk about?


Clark
(Meteorologist)
Tue Oct 11 2005 03:19 AM
The long, strange ride continues

Well, as Stacy Stewart said in the 11p Vince discussion, the long, strange ride continues. Vince remains as a classified tropical cyclone with winds at 45mph based upon ship observations and enhanced convection on the east side of the storm. Located at 9.5W, it is the first system to be classified as a tropical cyclone in this basin to the east of 10W (not including the unclassified storm in the S. Atlantic near Congo in 1991). It is also the first storm to be making landfall in Portgual. If it maintains a more easterly heading in the short-term, it may even make it to the Mediterranean Sea; however, with the strong front/trough approaching from the west, it's more likely to end up just inland across Spain over the coming day.

Vince is yet another reminder that tropical cyclones do not always form from tropical waves over >26C waters. It's not something that redefines the tropical cyclone paradigm; in fact, it's formation is similar to both of those South Atlantic tropical cyclones (1991 and 2004). All three storms can be explained using our theories for tropical cyclone development -- the idea of the efficiency of a Carnot cycle as depicted by a hurricane is based upon sea surface temperatures and temperatures at the outflow layer/tropopause. This efficiency goes into the maximum potential intensity calculation (http://www.wxmaps.org/pix/hurpot.html) which, believe it or not, states that a significant tropical cyclone could form and maintain itself across that region toward Portgual/Morocco. While it is rare to see a storm form in such cold SSTs (~25C or less throughout), it is not impossible...nor is it impossible for such a system to acquire at least a weak low-level warm core.

Vince formed from an upper-level area of low pressure that slid to the southeast out of the mid-latitude pattern and became cut-off. This upper-level low induced (action at a distance) a surface circulation just west of the Madeira Islands; through time, the upper-level low weakened, leaving behind the surface circulation in a favorable upper-level environment for development. The initially cold-core surface low acquired a warm-core structure -- the microwave imager data from UWisconsin shows this pretty well and the operational model data show this to a lesser degree -- through the so-called WISHE tropical cyclone development mechanism.

This WISHE -- wind-induced surface heat exchange -- mechanism states that as you get winds impacting the ocean's surface, heat and moisture are extracted from the upper ocean. The convection associated with the system and the associated rising motion serve to transport this energy upward (note that it is not the convection itself that drives the heating within the storm!) where the accumulation of energy at upper levels maintains the storm, builds the warm core, and, through meteorological principles, helps to intensify the system. We saw the system acquire a warm-core, later develop an eye, and then weaken -- all like we see with tropical cyclones! The only difference is the unique location and underlying circumstances.

Such events are so rare, leading them to be nearly impossible to predict. While we have records of a few, there are likely hundreds more we've missed because we couldn't or were not looking for such systems. Whenever the model guidance suggests something might cut-off in a region marginally favorable -- even if it is out of our normal paradigms for tropical cyclone development -- it might just be worth keeping an eye on, just in case the unexpected does happen. At the very least, it can help you better understand how normal mid-latitude cyclones evolve. I should note that these systems are the types of systems Jack Beven at the NHC absolutely loves...he must've been pinching himself when this one popped up (and I mean that in a good way)!

Nevertheless, it's always a good idea to think outside the box -- but it's also reassuring to know that our tropical cyclone development theories explain such a development & transition to a warm-core system quite well. Otherwise, we'd have to think about redeveloping our TC development theories!

Enjoy Vince while it lasts -- you may not see another storm quite like it for a long time to come. 10W in the Atlantic basin has so little ocean -- and even less that is favorable for development even under the outside-the-box principle (in terms of MPI) -- that it's very tough to see something like this even happen.

In other parts of the basin much, much closer to home, ex-STD 22 is about to get caught up in the convergence zone/trough hanging out just off of the US east coast and is not likely to redevelop. I'm watching that area very near Puerto Rico, however, on the periphery of that big upper low. There's some model guidance supporting something getting going there and as it moves into a more favorable position with respect to the upper low, we could see something spin up later this week. I'd put it at 50/50 we finish the Atlantic list sometime this week...and overall better than 50/50 that we see Alpha sometime this season. This is the wacky season, where storms don't necessarily have the typical tropical origins, but with very few exceptions -- Lee is the one I can think of -- everything has been a legit tropical cyclone. Accumulated TC energy is going to be skewed with Rita, Katrina, Emily, and Dennis, but the total number of TC days is going to be relatively low for what one might expect for 20+ storms.

More later...having some trouble with the site lately, so updates on my end might be slow in coming.


HanKFranK
(User)
Tue Oct 11 2005 04:47 AM
weirded out yet?

we get one of these transition systems in most years. maybe a third of those are in the eastern atlantic at high latitude. vince isn't the first ET-origin system to get started out there, but they're usually the type of cutoffs that meander back to the west. this one just went east... all the way to the gulf of cadiz. so now we have the first landfall of record in the european continent. if it were on a slightly more eastward trajectory it might have threaded the strait of gibraltar and gone on into the mediterranean.. but thankfully the weirdness will stop perpetuating this morning as the storm becomes nontropical over southwestern spain.
anywho, our old buddy subtropical depression 22 is still trudging nw a beam of hatteras right now. it's been firing an odd thunderstorm or two, not losing definition to its low-level remnant. crossing the gulf stream this morning and according to forecaster stewart about to briefly entry a low-shear environment.. the dead zone between the northerly flow of the upper low and the southerly flow behind the surface trough. very low probability of regeneration, but it should add moisture and energy to the onshore flow and tropical conveyor in the northeast that has over the last few days caused a lot of rain. there's been some decent flooding in the northeast since the weekend... the mess that sheared off of tammy and that yucatan invest that rode up the front really pushed a lot of rain up there.
models are backing off on the gale system they've been showing arcing around the back side of that upper low, passing bermuda.. but now stalling well offshore the northeast and then backing away to the east. looks feasible, but we still don't have more than a disturbance near the ne caribbean for now. clark has already highlighted the potential with this one.
maybe a little more disturbed weather lingering in the western or central caribbean after that, but no real model support for it.. and the longer range modeling isn't showing much in the long range. unless the pattern amplifies again this may be our last batch of activity in the basin for a while, as mjo is forecasted inhibitive for the rest of the month. it hasn't worked that well this year, but perhaps things will ease off as the added strike against of late october comes into play.
things had better quit, or we'll be revisiting our inner fred flintstone.. then speaking greek. tpratch, can you do that?
HF 0447z11october


Storm Hunter
(Veteran Storm Chaser)
Tue Oct 11 2005 05:48 AM
Re: weirded out yet?

for those interested.....and while we have some down time in the tropics.... Here is the latest on the first unmanned flight into Hurricane Ophelia...
(pretty interesting data images)
http://www.aerosonde.com/drawarticle/127
**note too that this project is over....They are heading to Guam for another project**** (areosonde)

Also, this past friday. Max and Gen. Johnson (NWS dir) went before the House Science Committe for the Hurricane Forecasting.... it's playing on C-Span...... some intersting information come out of the hearing..... including the Gulf Coast strikes....and what went wrong and right.... and max gave some good information and said he thinks he did all he thought was possible from his point of view..... There was one Rep. (Gordon) that got down and dirty and he showed an emailed leaked within the last month about a new memo in the NWS right now, post the stroms... NO ONE can give an interview to media/others, until it's cleared through to the top command... (headquaters NOAA)... not sure why yet...it's interesting.....

back to max... it is on file that Max even made personal phone calls (late at night) two nights before landfall of katrina to the Govs. of LA, MS, FL, and the New Orleans Mayor, that "this is going to be bad".... he later said he wanted to make sure that when he went to sleep, he believed he did everything he thought was possible to get the message out.... .

Also i think i heard that there may be a NEW plane in the budget for the AOML next year... for Hurricane Recon..... Although its noted there is a BILLION dollar difference between the House and Senate for the NOAA budget next year... from what i have read.... but sounds like all the members are now for any help/money NOAA needs, gets there support......

**also noted some of images max showed off... the ones he sayes he uses... had alot of Ramdis sat shots **

Anyway... this may not belong to this area...thought it would be nice to share.... this may be sent to the yard or deleted...


Rich B
(British Meteorologist)
Tue Oct 11 2005 08:47 AM
Its official - Europes first on record

Well a day for the history books! This morning saw Tropical Depression Vince make landfall on mainland Europe just to the southwest of Huelva, Spain, as a Tropical Cyclone. This has never been recorded before! The depression is now losing tropical characteristics, but it made it - and many of us didnt think we would see this happen!

SMOKE
(Weather Watcher)
Tue Oct 11 2005 10:51 AM
Re: Its official - Europes first on record

Historic and wierd season.

tpratch
(Moderator)
Tue Oct 11 2005 10:56 AM
Speaking Greek

Sadly, I don't speak the tongue of my ancestors. However, I know the odd phrase here and there.

That being said, I went on record back in the Katrina days stating I believe we'll see 3 storms with Greek names. It still doesn't feel right (4 more named to go), but I'm sticking to my guns (if only I'd made that prediction in May - I might have more confidence).

At any rate, I'd have to say my favorite part of this season is only having to go through outer bands of one storm. I know others have been less fortunate, but after Brevard went through the twins last year (and Charley hitting the north part of the county), I'm pleased.

Here's to 4 more storms - all of which only bother the fish.

Clark - great analysis and explanation. When the site acts up and doesn't load the CSS or javascript, it can make posting more difficult to those not used to UBB or HTML. If you want, you can always send posts to me for formatting so that when those functions load properly again, the post will be what you're expecting.

Cheers,
--Tom


Beach
(Weather Guru)
Tue Oct 11 2005 11:27 AM
And they say...

That our Planet is not going through a clemental change.
This year has been incredible to watch. Living here in Cocoa Beach I'm ready for some "fall like" weather.
I'm affraid that our "New Patterns" will keep pushing our cool relief back further and further.


GuppieGrouper
(Weather Master)
Tue Oct 11 2005 01:28 PM
Re: And they say...

I am not being funny but commenting that due to the strange weather patterns we all have been experiencing, with Tropical storms showing up where they are least expected, I am now considering the possibility of anywhere from North Florida to Miami to experience a blizzard of snow this winter. Florida has had snow in the past and in my life time of 54 years I have seen 3 snowfall accumulations of an inch or so that melted and was gone by the end of the day or early the next day. With this in mind, it would not surprise me to see a blizzard of the mid west proportion. Now relatively speaking a blizzard for Florida would be tropical storm force winds and 3 inches of snow. This would be a mild storm for the mid west and a disaster for people who have never driven on snow or coped with it in large accumulations. But, it would be in keeping with the rest of the strange season.

ChessieStorm
(Weather Watcher)
Tue Oct 11 2005 03:43 PM
Re: And they say...

Tampa had snow fall in January 1976/77 of about 1-2 inches. The northern panhandle has seen more than its share of snowfall. I know in the Great Storm of 1993, I think 2 inches fell in spots. At the time I was living in W.Va. and we had over 30 inches with 5-6 feet snow-drifts.

I wouldn't mind seeing snow in Florida this coming winter.


dave foster
(Weather Hobbyist)
Tue Oct 11 2005 04:13 PM
Re: Its official - Europes first on record

Hear, hear!

Now, what's the chance of something hitting the UK within the next five years?


doug
(Weather Analyst)
Tue Oct 11 2005 05:26 PM
Re: weirded out yet?

There appears to be some tumbling in the atmosphere NW of Puerto Rico as mentioned, and now even just south of Jamica. If something gets going in the W. Carribean, I think it has a better chance than the ATL, because the environment looks overall more favorable...

Adam
(Registered User)
Tue Oct 11 2005 05:34 PM
Re: And they say...

i was wondering if anybody new of a website like this one but for forcasting winter weather, maps and models and such, the winter time gets kinda boring in FL and would like to track and watch some winter storms. thanks a lot. adam

dave foster
(Weather Hobbyist)
Tue Oct 11 2005 06:24 PM
Re: Its official - Europes first on record

Just going back to an earlier topic regarding Vince and the perception of a hurricane hitting Europe.

I was reminded of the Great Storm (as it was called) in October 1987. It caused massive amounts of damage along the south coast of England with a loss of life of 18.

If anyone's interested I've found a couple of decent links that are worth viewing. The Great Storm was extratropical with winds in excess of 100mph (hurricane force on the Beaufort Scale).

http://www.dandantheweatherman.com/Bereklauw/Octstorm.html

http://www.stvincent.ac.uk/Resources/Weather/Severe/oct87satpic.html


Clark
(Meteorologist)
Tue Oct 11 2005 08:27 PM
Something new?

A tad bit active in the tropics right now, but nothing imminent.

The broad upper trough is finally starting to kick out to the north & northwest. A broad area of low pressure at the surface extends from 15N/80W to 20N/70W to 25N/65W. Weak low-level circulations are found at 23N/70W (non-convective and in the base of the upper trough) and 24N/66.5W (on the western edge of the broad convective band along the periphery of the trough, but neither appear likely candidates for tropical development. The latter of the two is the most interesting of the two and may ultimately undergo extratropical or subtropical development, but nothing tropical there.

The area in the western/central Caribbean is more interesting, however. Underneath the influence of convergence associated with the aforementioned surface trough and very strong diffluence (diverging winds) aloft, convection continues to fire across much of the region. However, it appears as though things could be consolidating near 17.5N/74W, or just east-southeast of Jamaica, in the vicinity of a mid-level vortex. Upper level shear has weakened slightly over the past 24hr and as the upper low continues to move away toward the north could continue to weaken. With the slight approach of a unseasonably strong upper ridge from the northwest in advance of a trough in the central US, upper level conditions should become a bit more favorable over the next couple of days.

If what is out there now lingers over the next two-three days as its upper level forcing weakens and moves away, we could see something develop. However, we've seen convection like this on a daily basis, so I hesitate to call for anything to develop out of that mess from the get-go. Greater model support is being given to the feature discussed above near 24N, with the energy from this feature ultimately feeding into that disturbance as it develops, but I'm not quite sold on that. It's something to watch at this point with a shot at developing, but not a very high one -- the same could be said for anything across the rest of the basin right now.

The West Pacific has seen a typhoon intensify from a TS to a cat. 3 system over the course of 12hr today thanks to a highly favorable upper-level environment induced by an upper level trough passing to the north of the system. Interesting to watch, at least.


tashina
(Verified CFHC User)
Tue Oct 11 2005 08:44 PM
winter website

Adam,

You might try this site. If they aren't what you are looking for, they probably know who is.

http://www.theweatheroutlook.com/forum/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=55


GuppieGrouper
(Weather Master)
Tue Oct 11 2005 10:31 PM
Re: And they say...

Adam, here is a link that you might like. Its free and you just sign in for a password.

http://www.wildonweather.com/forum/index.php?


HURRICANELONNY
(Weather Guru)
Tue Oct 11 2005 10:47 PM
Re:MODELS

Almost all the models have a piece of energy from the carribean turning into something. Possibly tropical and heading just where the NE doesn't need anymore rain:
http://moe.met.fsu.edu/tcgengifs/


HanKFranK
(User)
Tue Oct 11 2005 10:54 PM
Re: And they say...

it isn't a tropical system, but it's definitely tropical-origin: the low that remains of subtropical depression 22 is now a couple hundred miles east of delaware... drifting nne and blowing some convection, but forecast by several globals to be blocked by the strong high pressure descending over the canadian maritimes and pushes northwest and west towards new jersey. while it may not be a tropical cyclone, this system is going to bring a great deal of tropical moisture to the region from new jersey to maine that is already drenched from the shear-off from tammy and the yucatan invest that rode up the coast at the end of last week. joe b had this system arriving up there from a good ways back. i don't agree with him that it will reintensify (say, into a gale center), but do think that he's right about the northeast being due for some severe flooding.
the stuff from the two to seven o clock orbit around the upper low west of bermuda still has no coherent maxima around which a low pressure could form. globals have been predicting one to originate near hispaniola for days, but that still hasn't happened. now that the upper low is lifting out, clark is right in forecasting the upper air conditions to improve. there's been a persistent anomalous westerly flow out of the pacific into the caribbean for days now... probably an artefact of the generally high upper heights over the northern latitudes and low heights in the tropics. interesting that as winter comes on and the longwave pattern deepens, the tendency for all that blocking up there could contribute to some severe arctic outbreaks.. since some of you are already talking winter. as far as the current situation goes, based on how anomalous that fetch off the pacific has been, i'd say that were in for a system or two regardless as the upper low lifts out and things try to right themselves.
we've got a pretty flat weather pattern, with a zonal jet at higher latitudes and above normal heights near the northern u.s./southern canada.. with cutoff lows and below normal heights in the subtropics... resulting in a pretty stagnant, jammed up mess in the tropics. i'm wondering what things will look like when we finally get ouf of it.
HF 2254z11october


typhoon_tip
(Meteorologist)
Tue Oct 11 2005 11:08 PM
Re: And they say...

..Which is quite remarkable considering that we here in Eastern New England were running substantial deficits before this pattern change took place. Some locales were officially in short-term drought status and are by cause of this recent event suddenly above average! Amazing... Some places in N central Ma and S Nh have reported 12"+ since last Friday and many towns in those areas have flash-flood related damage to properties and road infractructures. There was even 1 fatality and some injuries, as well - sadly.
http://www.erh.noaa.gov/box/climate/pns/OCT7-9_2005 ....show some rain total numbers. Note, many of these locales were bone dry and running severe water shortages before hand.

It was really a slow moving cold front with copious tropical ingest running right up and over the top as the surface boundary oozed across the area - shallow air mass and absolutely shocking isentropic lift (stuff cut out for sci-fi). The fun part is, it's still raining!


Margie
(Senior Storm Chaser)
Wed Oct 12 2005 01:39 AM
Re: And they say...

The conclusion I have come to with Joe B is that if you ignore all the hype and the doomsday spins, underneath, much of the time, there is some interesting bit of information. It doesn't seem to bother him to work that way, and he is always entertaining to watch, so I just kind of let all that other stuff roll past.

Beach
(Weather Guru)
Wed Oct 12 2005 11:37 AM
Something Local

There must of been a rain cloud parked over our neighborhood. I had 8 inches in the bucket this morning from yesterday morning. There is 4 inches of standing water accross the road in the entire neighborhood. We didn't that much standing water last year with the three storms.

meranto
(Verified CFHC User)
Wed Oct 12 2005 11:47 AM
Re: Its official - Europes first on record

It does happen more often, I found 2 good exaples in the Mediterranean Sea:

This one is not so obvious, off the coast of Tunesia, sept 17 2003




This one however bears all the visible characteristics of a hurricane. Note that it formed on january 13th 2005 over SST of 16 degrees C (61 degrees F). It carried 133 km/h (83 mph) winds and the eye survived for more than 30 hours. It had formed out of a cold front and was moving south. Combine all that and you have sinned against the NHC bible for 100%, and still it was there.

I guess meteorology is just not well enough understood to cope with this kind of systems.

IR


VIS


the 'hurricane' between the ionian sea and libya happened in 1995, but that's just semantics. the 2003 system happened.. well, you're dutch so you probably remember how abnormally hot that year was. there are a couple of others w/o documented pics i've seen... one in 1969 and another in 1982 which appeared to be tropical or subtropical. that beven guy probably pays these oddballs the most heed. there are hybrid systems like these in other basins as well, but they don't as often get attention--hard to ignore something in the med. because if it moves somebody gets hit. -HF

Sorry, that 2005 one should off cource be 1995 As a Dutchman I would indeed remember the 2003 summer, if I were there but I spent that whole summer in the US, missing the first nice and hot summer in Holland in 60 years


Rick on boat in Mobile
(Weather Drama Guru)
Wed Oct 12 2005 12:09 PM
Re: Its official - Europes first on record

has anyone considered the pressure differential factor?....that a hurricane might need a high temperature and a low temperature differential, with the water to hold it together.....simply put...but to me, logical.

the higher the overall temperature, the higher the energy, and hence...frequency of event is higher. So a cold system behaves in much the same way as a warm...but is rarer....

just a thought...don't tear it up too much....


GuppieGrouper
(Weather Master)
Wed Oct 12 2005 12:34 PM
Re: Its official - Europes first on record

The NHC is government operated to protect the citizens and properties of the United States. This would mean that the interest in storms in other climates might interest the individual meterologist but would not be in the realm of the job at the NHC to do more than give it a nod, if they have time. I am afraid that public Television, and internet gives every one the impression that the NHC stands for International Hurricane Center but, it has its boundaries.

The NHC is limited by all politics relating to money and economic impact to the United States and Its properties.


Cindi
(Verified CFHC User)
Wed Oct 12 2005 02:26 PM
Re: Its official - Europes first on record

Regarding SNOW in the Panhandle of Florida...the last time we had snow here was in 1989 (Panama City)...we got about 3 inches (enough to cover the ground) and it lasted the weekend Dec 23 - Dec 25. I'd love to have snow here again!

I was in college at the time and working at the mall... well, instead of CLOSING the mall early so we could all get home safely, they kept it open...you know...they thought MORE MONEY b/c it was snowing right before Christmas...Bridges had to be closed, and some of my friends had to stay with friends because they couldnot get home.


HanKFranK
(User)
Wed Oct 12 2005 02:32 PM
quieting down

the way things are going we're probably going into a quiet time. there have been several systems in the western atlantic that haven't done anything, and the eastpac quit popping storms, which is the usual signal that we've passed the active part of the season and nothing but the odd baroclinic or pattern-pulse system in the western caribbean will get going.
pattern we've been in is supportive for baroclinic type systems... it's effectively suppressed caribbean activity, but the best chance for something would be that model phantom that gets slung from bermuda to the canadian maritimes. thus far it hasn't made any overt appearance. the festering mess near jamaica is forecast by models to persist even after the upper trough to the north pulls away and a more tradition upper ridging pattern builds in. at this rate that won't happen for a while.
aside from last minute tammy and oddball vince... since stan departed stage pacific there hasn't been anything robust looking in the part of the atlantic that troubles us. with an inactive mjo phase and lethargic, persistent shear pattern over the areas that could do anything, whatever comes will be slow if at all.
it's non tropical, but that former subtropical depression is now sliding wsw off the jersey coast. they're getting drenched in the coastal northeast by these systems... with the onshore flow forecast to persist until the westerlies sweep in to clear the area later this week. likely to see severe flooding in the region from new jersey up to maine for the next few days.
HF 1431z12october


Myles
(Weather Hobbyist)
Wed Oct 12 2005 03:13 PM
Re: quieting down

Clark, how does an upper trough create a more favorable environment for tropical systems? I remember you saying that Katrina had 3 upper lows around it that helped it to strengthen to a cat 5, and recently you posted that one in the west pacific caused a tropical storm to go to a cat 3 in a very short time frame.(I think it was 12 hours you said) From the looks of radar on that west pacific storm, the upper trough is now causing some shear. So now I'm all confused. Does a trough or upper low only help at a distance, or are there more variables then that? Also, is it more condusive for devlopment for a storm to be firmly tucked under high pressure with no upper lows around, or with less high pressure and upper lows in the vicinity?

Margie
(Senior Storm Chaser)
Wed Oct 12 2005 03:15 PM
Re: Its official - Europes first on record

NHC's areas of responsibility (AOR) include the Atlantic basin, and the north eastern Pacific basin (north of the equator and east of 140W), and they track tropical storms in these areas and issue warnings, regardless of whether they are going to impact US interests.

doug
(Weather Analyst)
Wed Oct 12 2005 04:07 PM
Re: quieting down

Three features to look at today: one just south of Jamaica and one nearer to the SW Domiccan Republic in close proxmity to each other. The one near the DR is more vigorous. both seem to be at the apex of the huge upper low/trough along the eastern seaboard which is why they should be watched.
The third is the surface trough along the Florida east coast and into central Florida which is migrating slowly westward, the apex of which is near Lake Okeechobe..Not much upper energy for this to work with though, however in general pressures remain lower than normal across Florida.


FlaMommy
(Storm Tracker)
Wed Oct 12 2005 04:39 PM
Re: Its official - Europes first on record

I miss my snow...but i seen that its been a long time since tampa area has seen snow...with the current track of the hurricane season and the blizzard up north this past week....could that possibly mean we are going to have a rough winter?...i know last year we had several storms and then winter wasnt that bad(but im used to below freezing temps)...lol...what would have to happen to get snow from the panhandle to miami area? thanks becky

dave foster
(Weather Hobbyist)
Wed Oct 12 2005 06:10 PM
Re: Its official - Europes first on record

Wow, cool pics Meranto. Seems like the weather has, and always will decide on what it can and cannot do, despite our best efforts to predict it.

As far as the NHC area of responsibility is concerned I agree with Margie 100%. To be honest, for a time I had thought that the NHC were going to try and ignore their responsibility in respect of Vince. But, I don't know whether they suddenly had second thoughts about it or whether they were 'persuaded' to take action based upon some of the comments made at the time by experienced users within this forum.

Whatever the answer, I applaud the NHC for making the right decision, despite the fact that it was almost off the map. I'm sure the NHC announcement and the subsequent posts in this forum helped to allay some of the fears voiced by people like Josef. After all, the fear is in the 'not knowing'.


Beach
(Weather Guru)
Wed Oct 12 2005 06:12 PM
Question for you-all

I was looking at a couple of links.
First one was Radar:
http://www.intellicast.com/Local/USLocal...mp;prodnav=none

I thought I saw a rotation off Cape Canaveral.
So I went to the Bouys:
Station 41009:
http://www.ndbc.noaa.gov/station_page.php?station=41009
Has winds out of the NW.
Wind Direction (WDIR): NNW ( 330 deg true )
Wind Speed (WSPD): 1.9 kts
Wind Gust (GST): 3.9 kts
Wave Height (WVHT): 3.9 ft
Dominant Wave Period (DPD): 9 sec
Average Period (APD): 5.7 sec
Atmospheric Pressure (PRES): 29.85 in
Air Temperature (ATMP): 82.0 °F
Water Temperature (WTMP): 84.6 °F

Station 41010 100 Nm from the first:
http://www.ndbc.noaa.gov/station_page.php?station=41010
Has winds out of the ESE.
Wind Direction (WDIR): ESE ( 120 deg true )
Wind Speed (WSPD): 3.9 kts
Wind Gust (GST): 3.9 kts
Wave Height (WVHT): 4.9 ft
Dominant Wave Period (DPD): 9 sec
Average Period (APD): 6.5 sec
Atmospheric Pressure (PRES): 29.84 in
Air Temperature (ATMP): 82.0 °F
Water Temperature (WTMP): 83.8 °F
Dew Point (DEWP): 73.9 °F
Heat Index (HEAT): 88.0 °F

Is something trying to get going?


typhoon_tip
(Meteorologist)
Wed Oct 12 2005 06:30 PM
Re: Its official - Europes first on record

Actually, FlaMommy...that is a really good question!
I'm sure that you are already aware that recent ....years (really) increased in Atlantic Basin tropical cyclone frequency is fitting into a periodicity known as the multi-decadal oscillation quite nicely. Basically, in the 1940's, '50's and middle 1960's there was tons of action out there, then there was a relative lull, which lasted through the early 1990's. This cyclic behavior of hurricane frequency is thought to be associated with the SOI (Southern Oscillation Index) in the Pacific Ocean. Approximately every 30 years, the SOI tends to favor La Nina’s over El Nino’s as the preferred state of the Pacific equatorial waters. (Recently there has been study that the NAO (North Atlantic Oscillation) may play some role by exerting strong high pressure at middle latitudes, which intensifies the easterly components near and beneath 30N). Between 1940 and the middle 1960’s the Pacific SSTs tended to be neutral to negative, then, who can forget the incredible press coverage over El Nino that raged throughout the 1980’s.

How does the SOI effect hurricanes: La Nina states pile warmer, deeper thermocline rich waters around the western Pacific. The winds in the upper levels of the atmosphere respond accordingly by blowing lighter over central America and the SW Atlantic Basin. This is a spatial relationship of having less convection/upward moving air situated around the east Pacific equatorial regions. The resulting favorability is that it supplies less upper-level westerlies (i.e. shearing components) down wind; a favorable environment for tropical cyclone genesis occurs closer to home. Where as, if you pile warmer water in the east Pacific, greater convection/upward moving air is imparts stronger shear over the Caribbean and SW Atlantic.

Complicating this further, we are in a multi-year warm SST departure in the Atlantic Basin; which is to say, more energy available annually in the upper oceanic heat content across recent times. It becomes entirely intuitive thus, that more tropical cyclone production (notwithstanding intensities) would launch for having more energy(fuel). Compounding this factor with cool to neutral SST in the Pacific Basin creates high-confidence connection to our recent amazements. As a result, a 2.5fold increase in major hurricane production has been noted since about 1994, with is as much as a 5fold increase in the Caribbean alone! This makes the theoretical understanding of what teleconnects everything fairly well behaved at this time. This makes for a dire prediction for all these coastal interests here at home because these active times are not signaled to have an early lease.

What does this have to do with our ensuing winter?
Here’s the catch: the truth is, La Nina states or even just weak signal La Nina's may be very good for hurricane production, but that doesn’t not necessarily mean so for winter storms. Conversely, it has actually been demonstrated statistically that is weak La Nino states are concurrent with cold storminess in the E 1/3 of NA. This is then augmented much further by the NAO (Arctic Oscillation Index) (…also, a nested component of the AO (Arctic Oscillation)), and the PNA (Pacific-North-American).

There are a lot of different climate indices that have been defined, usually associate with specific weather behaviors around the northern hemisphere. Of the five primary indices, PDO, SOI, PNA, NAO, and the Northern Hemisphere temperatures, it is the NAO and PNA indices which show remarkably dependable correlation to intensities/severity of winters over North America (particularly the eastern 1/3). Complicating that even further…the PNA aspect has been weakly correlated to the PDO and SOI. I haven’t found any study that formally connects or attempts to connect the NAO to these, but who knows…

It is incredible how well these known indexes connect probabilistically to model corrections. If you’re looking at an 8 day lead time storm that could be a big one, check for your predominant PNA and NAO phases! If the former is positive, and the latter is negative (not to mention, you are in a weak ENSO east year) duck! I’ve seen storms in the modeled for 8 straight days that suddenly disappear just 2 days prior to the event, and then noted that my phases were not really that good all along. Also, the PNA has a shorter duration, extreme variability and the NAO is just slightly longer and more dependable. Sometimes, some years, they are remarkably fixed; other years they flip phases negative to positive so fast the very few forecast models (including people) demonstrate much skill.

There are of course exceptions to rule but for majority of the so-called 'block-buster' storms, the ones that can impart enough cold air to deeper latitudes to bring snow where it does not normally snow, can and are statistically correlated with positive PNA and negative NAO; while weak signal El Nino events make better snow producers (more moisture)

It is important to note this for this season because we are currently losing the weak La Nina signal that persisted for much of 2004 through the middle summer months. We are very darn close to neutral across the majority of the Pacific Basin. The graphical analysis of seasonal snow depths, as well as temperature behaviors for the U.S. during neutral scale is erratic and unpredictable... Meaning, nominal skill usually within normal will tend to result. But, that of course does not mean we are not going to get a deep latitude event, nor does it presuppose an active Nor'easter season. Last year we had more storms with CCB (cold conveyor belt) set ups then I can remember in a particular season. We had record breaking cold and tons of snow in all winters between 2002 and 2004. And guess what, that took place in a weak La Nina period... Basically, although the weak La Nina was probably a negative factor, the powerful –NAO and +PNA just overwhelmed.

There is also another very interesting (from the recent studies I've read on the matter) statistical connection. It has to do with the amount of late summer and autumn snow deposition that takes place over northeast Siberia.. Increased or positive anomaly snow pack in the sun-dimming months of the autumn up there for lack of better words, gets the momentum of cold air mass cryogenics working early. If the NAO turns negative in later October and November, then these arctic air masses get yanked over the NW Passage and Pole at least excuse to do so. Usually this excuse consists of a fairly high amplitude +PNA, where a ridge surges in latitude to encompass the Gulf of Alaska and W. Coast. The next thing you know, some reporter is demonstrating how to freeze a boiling cup of water by merely throwing it in the air some –40F morning in Tower Minnesota. I once saw Tower Minnesota go from the upper 40s to minus 20 in an afternoon in early December in a year such as this being described; these early cold snaps that coincide with the lowest solar irradiance of the annular cycle can be truly deep blue vicious. Even by early February you are getting nick by increased daylight – though admittedly you really need to get into early March to worry about sun messing up your cold.

So, if you have had enough of hurricane lore for one season and need the break… you got about 8 month reprieve. Next season is climate signaled to be big again. During the next few seasons for that matter, the lamest seasons will be average, but the big seasons will demolish cities – potentially.


Clark
(Meteorologist)
Wed Oct 12 2005 07:57 PM
Re: quieting down

Needs to be far enough away to assist in the form of an outflow evacuation channel but not close enough or strong enough to shear the storm. Usually they are unfavorable, but the environments around them can help bring together things that, if they persist and the environment becomes more favorable, could ultimately develop. Seen more of that this year than in most years, I'd say, but that's just off of my memory.

HanKFranK
(User)
Wed Oct 12 2005 07:59 PM
a few obs

well tip if you've got any good ideas about those teleconnection indicies i'd be glad to hear 'em, because my term project in one class this semester will involve me tying the phase of those suckers to tropical cyclogenesis... if it works, anyway. gonna have to learn principal component analysis in a crunch here, man.
anyhow speaking of SOI, it's been averaging positive since mid september or so, with the odd dip here or there.. but has gone strongly positive in the last few days. this sort of action will get the easterly flow in the tropical pacific really kicking and strengthen the upwelling off of south america. got a hunch next year will be a la nina year. in these sorts of transitional winters... i.e. from near neutral to cold ENSO, you can get some pretty serious cold-air outbreaks over the continent. a couple of quick analogs i can think up are the '84-'85 winter and '95-'96. there's already been an general trend towards blocking and higher heights in the northern latitudes so far this fall, so i'm reckoning that winter '05-'06 could have some embedded extremes early.. then probably transition to the warm/dry south and mild/moist north configuration that is particular to la nina, if it actually does come on.
anyhow, worth noting that a few of the 12z runs are becoming more interesting in that a nw caribbean system is starting to emergy early next week. around the time we're done dealing with whatever semi-tropical feature tries to pop out of the northern end of that upper trough near bermuda, the lower end might be brewing something up as the pattern relaxes and more ridging builds in over all that persistent low-level convergence.
in the short term the northern mid atlantic and southwestern new england are in big trouble as persistent tropical-origin rains keep funneling in off the atlantic. draw a 100 mile circle around new york city and anywhere in that zone is going to likely see widespread regional flooding.
HF 1959z12october


typhoon_tip
(Meteorologist)
Wed Oct 12 2005 09:08 PM
Re: a few obs

Yeah - it's tough man. There is definitely a growing disparity between what is known (or theoretically understood) about how certain index phases statistically connect to enhancing probability for certain weather phenomenon, vs. what is often observed. Take your '95-'96 winter: I was living in Massachusetts earlier that summer feeling cheated out of what was at that time a record breaking hurricane season; mainly, because New England was spared (just like this year - argh). Anyway, as you know, that winter was exceptional. At one point we had 40" of snow on the level and if you cut through the pack it was stratified into different layers of aggregates related to temperature at deposition times from successive events. Kind of like what avalanch researchers look for in predicting what layers are more prone to bifurcate and cause slides to take place... But, there we were at sea-level with our own micro-study.. It got so inundating with huge snow banks narrowing streets that it kind of changed the land scape unrecognizably in the intermediate sense of it.. But then, in latter January, huge thaws caused flooding...February, one last shot and we again getting belted by deep cold and heavy snows... That was it until 2000! In 1998 we were in the upper 70's almost everyday for a week in early December and much of that season was warm enough to play tennis outdoors.

Point being, at first glance one would be inclined to think that the huge hurricane season earlier that summer and autumn may somehow have been connected. The fact of the matter is they likely were not... Because, as you intimate, the phase of SOI and its connection to the ENSO state was in flux... Now, we do know that there is a time dependency for rapid transitioning ENSO modalities and the atmospheric response. That really confuses matters and makes your research look dubious if you don't acknowledge that as being true. If you are trying to write a thesis paper of some kind, pertaining to the connectability of index phase states to tropical phenomenon (or extra-tropical for that matter) you'd do your self a world a good by considering/planning for a time lags.

I didn't know that the SOI had changed or assumed any states as emphatically as you allude. Shows what I know.. I had just read NCEP autum climate eval and it didn't really lay mention to anything like that. They were pretty clear that neutral states of the ENSO were afoot and they believed also that it would likely persist into spring of 2006. That does not sit will with a SOI that wants to drive easterly trades does it? Kind of sounds like SOI (which we all know is highly correlated to ENSO) is indicating the neutral could be more transient than perhaps NCEP is currently aware or thinking.

I have been doing my own independent research in the matter regarding indices.. just for s*(&! and giggles I've been doing correlation cof on different states to see how well they move together... So far, I've nailed down some interesting findings.. One is that the AO (Arctic Oscillation - of which the NAO is a nested component) does not always concurrently operate when the NAO is in a given phase. Also, there is some weak correlation between the 2 year periodicity of the QBO and NAO, which is really weird because I'm not totally certain how the heck they could be shaking hands...it is a "weak" correlation at best however.. Anyway, if you are trying to connect SOI to hurricane frequencies, I have the about 50 years of SOI, QBO, NAO and AO all in spreadsheet (EXCEL)... I could email them to you, or provide you with NWS websites that provide the indexes going back to 1958. But just remember, the earlier phase indices are a little bit dubious (at least to me) because in their write ups the admit that the earlier measurements are based on study rather than actual measurements.. That is because many of these indices weren't readily known or explored before 1970-ish...



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