MikeCAdministrator
(Admin)
Mon Jun 04 2007 06:27 PM
Barry Gone, Quiet Again

Barry has come and gone, giving Florida a good dose of rain, anywhere from 1 to 5 inches depending on what part. A lot of rain near Jacksonville and the Bugaboo fires, enough to dampen a lot of that fire activity. In all, Barry was a benefit rather than a detriment to Florida.

The rest of the Atlantic, and Caribbean and Gulf (Where most of the June storms form) is high on shear and low on chances for development, so it looks like the next week or so will be fairly quiet. Beyond that, it's the realm of speculation.

We'll continue to watch the tropics in case anything changes, but it looks good for the foreseeable future.

The next storm name up is Chantal.

For Floridians, a sales tax holiday began on June 1st and lasts until midnight on June 12th, you can get the following hurricane related items sans sales tax in this time:

{{HurricaneTaxFreeItems}}

Radar Loops
{{radarlink|byx|Key West, FL}}
{{radarlink|amx|Miami, FL}}
{{radarlink|tbw|Tampa Bay/Ruskin, FL}}
{{radarlink|mlb|Melbourne, FL}}
{{radarlink|tlh|Tallahassee, FL}}
{{radarlink|evx|Northwest, FL}}


Ed DunhamAdministrator
(Former Meteorologist & CFHC Forum Moderator (Ed Passed Away on May 14, 2017))
Wed Jun 06 2007 05:16 PM
Re: Barry Gone, Quiet Again

A few posts were shuffled off to the Hurricane Ask/Tell Forum - see that Forum for details.
ED


HanKFranK
(User)
Wed Jun 06 2007 06:58 PM
graveyard

does everybody else's forum page have all the posters titled 'no matter' and the graveyard emblem next to it? something broke, looks like. unless it's just me.
horizon looks fairly empty. the models are wishy-washy on how the ingredients will mesh early next week near the sw caribbean. dependent on which run and which model, there looks to be decent surface convergence, a slackening of the trades, and upper ridging induced by an upper trough digging near cuba and perhaps snapping. not a whole lot of consensus and it looks like a real long-shot. big upper trough cutting off the east coast next week will likely have its dynamics too far north to induce one of those spin-down hybrids. long-range modeling is tipping back and forth over the 500-mb pattern near north america, so can't really say whether we'll see another amplified-jumble pattern like the ones that have caused our first two (hybrid) tropical cyclones this season. don't expect anything if we get into a progressive zonal pattern.
HF 2358z06june

(Thanks for the heads-up. Problem has been fixed.)


Ron Basso
(Storm Tracker)
Thu Jun 07 2007 02:16 PM
Re: Possible Development near Bahamas

Both the NAM & GFS are developing a weak low pressure near the Bahamas. Is this the next tropical system to watch? Big blow-up of convection in the Bahamas today with some cc turning on VIS SAT. NWS Tampa Bay discusses it below.

http://www.ssd.noaa.gov/goes/east/gmex/loop-vis.html

AREA FORECAST DISCUSSION
NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE TAMPA BAY - RUSKIN FL
200 PM EDT THU JUN 7 2007

.SHORT TERM (TONIGHT-SATURDAY)...SURFACE HIGH PRESSURE OVER THE
WESTERN ATLANTIC WILL PERSIST...AS THE RIDGE AXIS LIFTS NORTH ACROSS
THE FLORIDA PENINSULA TONIGHT. BROAD SOUTHEAST FLOW WILL DEVELOP
ACROSS WEST CENTRAL AND SOUTHWEST FLORIDA...AS A WEAK AREA OF LOW
PRESSURE TRIES TO FORM ON THE TAIL END OF A FRONTAL BOUNDARY OVER
THE BAHAMAS. MODELS TAKE THIS SYSTEM ACROSS SOUTH FLORIDA LATE
FRIDAY AND FRIDAY NIGHT. THIS WOULD TEND TO KEEP MOISTURE OVER THE
CENTRAL AND SOUTHERN FA WITH SCATTERED AFTERNOON THUNDERSTORMS
CENTRAL AREAS...AND NUMEROUS THUNDERSTORMS SOUTHWEST FLORIDA FRIDAY
AFTERNOON IN AREA OF DEEPEST MOISTURE. ONLY ISOLATED THUNDERSTORMS
NORTHERN FA AS DRIER AIR ALOFT WILL ADVECT OVER THAT REGION.
DAYTIME TEMPERATURES WILL RUN NEAR CLIMO ON FRIDAY...BUT
BUILDING HIGH PRESSURE ALOFT OVER THE SOUTHEAST U.S. SHOULD
ALLOW AFTERNOON TEMPERATURES ACROSS THE NORTHERN FORECAST
AREA TO RISE SEVERAL DEGREES ABOVE CLIMO. AREAL COVERAGE OF
AFTERNOON THUNDERSTORMS OVER THE CENTRAL AND SOUTHERN FA SATURDAY
IS UNCERTAIN DEPENDING ON HOW MUCH ENERGY/ORGANIZATION REMAINS
WITH THE SYSTEM TO THE SOUTH. ATTM...WILL TREND POPS SLIGHTLY
LOWER WITH SCATTERED THUNDERSTORMS.

&&

.LONG TERM (SATURDAY NIGHT - THURSDAY)...START OF THE LONG TERM
PERIOD WILL BE CHARACTERIZED BY LOW CONFIDENCE GIVEN POOR MODEL RUN
CONSISTENCY. NAMELY...GFS AND NAM...WHICH ARE TRYING TO DEVELOP A
WAVE OF LOW PRES IN VCNTY OF THE BAHAMAS EARLIER IN THE WEEKEND...
DRIFT IT WESTWARD INTO THE EASTERN GULF SATURDAY NIGHT INTO SUNDAY.
RECENT RUNS HAVE BEEN DIFFERING ON WHERE THIS WAVE WILL BE DRIFTING
AND WHERE THE BEST MOISTURE ADVECTION AND PCPN WOULD OCCUR.


MikeCAdministrator
(Admin)
Thu Jun 07 2007 02:30 PM
Re: Possible Development near Bahamas

Quote:

Both the NAM & GFS are developing a weak low pressure near the Bahamas. Is this the next tropical system to watch? Big blow-up of convection in the Bahamas today with some cc turning on VIS SAT. NWS Tampa Bay discusses it below.




I'll leave this topic open for discussion on potential new systems, the Bahamas seems like a stretch right now for tropical development. It may help keep us wet in Florida.

If the model runs persist through tomorrow, then we have something. It looks interesting at least.


Hurricane29
(Weather Guru)
Thu Jun 07 2007 03:23 PM
Re: Possible Development near Bahamas

TROPICAL DISCUSSION - INTERNATIONAL DESKS
NWS HYDROMETEOROLOGICAL PREDICTION CENTER CAMP SPRINGS MD
232 PM EDT THU JUN 07 2007


IN A REVERSAL TO PREVIOUS
RUN...THE GFS AND REGIONAL NAM MODELS NOW DEVELOP AN UPPER LEVEL
LOW OVER SOUTHERN/CENTRAL FLORIDA. AT 60-72 HRS THEY FORECAST THIS
LOW TO MIGRATE SOUTH TO WESTERN CUBA. THE LOW WILL SUSTAIN A SHORT
WAVE TROUGH AT MID/UPPER LEVELS...WITH AXIS ACROSS WESTERN CUBA TO
THE WESTERN CARIBBEAN/GULF OF HONDURAS BY 48-72 HRS.

THIS FEATURE WILL SUSTAIN AN AREA OF MOISTURE CONVERGENCE ACROSS
THE NORTHWEST BAHAMAS AND WESTERN-CENTRAL CUBA THROUGH 42-48
HRS...WHERE IT WILL FAVOR RAINFALL ACCUMULATION OF 10-15MM/DAY AND
MAXIMA OF 25-50MM...WITH MOST INTENSE ACROSS BIMINI-GRAND BAHAMA
AND GREAT ABACO. ACROSS CENTRAL/WESTERN CUBA IT WILL FAVOR K INDEX
VALUES OF 32-36...AND RAINFALL ACCUMULATION OF 10-15MM/DAY AND
MAXIMA OF 25-50MM. FURTHERMORE...AS THE UPPER LOW MOVES OVER
CUBA..


Storm Hunter
(Veteran Storm Chaser)
Thu Jun 07 2007 03:27 PM
Re: Possible Development near Bahamas

hmm.. nice blow up of convection this afternoon... over the Bahama's
Sat VIS... based on surface flow, should bring some showers to south Florida. Been watching the NAM, and really haven't seen any other model support jump on it. Upper level winds appear not that hostile right now in that general area. Something to watch. Waters are warm in that area. July will be here soon!


Storm Hunter
(Veteran Storm Chaser)
Thu Jun 07 2007 04:29 PM
Re: Possible Development near Bahamas

based on the upper air data i have seen, it appears that there is a weak circulation over Florida in the upper to middle levels now. Kinda starting to see it in the WV channel sats, too. Looking at NAM and GFS, appears the low will drift down towards Cuba then towards Cancun, at the upper levels.

madmumbler
(Storm Tracker)
Thu Jun 07 2007 08:14 PM
Re: Possible Development near Bahamas

I'm sorry, I'm not understanding the time frame. Is this supposed to be for this weekend, or next weekend that they're talking on the model runs?

I just got a gust of wind and looked at the radar and it's really flared up all over the state. Is this just normal diurnal (sp?) rain or is this associated with this feature you're discussing?


West FL Jess
(Weather Hobbyist)
Thu Jun 07 2007 10:30 PM
Re: Possible Development near Bahamas

do you have a website for the model runs on this system? I have the http://euler.atmos.colostate.edu/~vigh/guidance/ site but that doesn't show anything. If someone could let me know I would greatly appreciate it.

thanks


danielwAdministrator
(Moderator)
Thu Jun 07 2007 11:25 PM
Re: Possible Development near Bahamas

Most of the information from the models can be found at the following link.

http://moe.met.fsu.edu

Scroll down to the bottom portion of the page. Some of the links are out dated.
As always, check the dates of the model run.


madmumbler
(Storm Tracker)
Fri Jun 08 2007 08:23 AM
Re: Possible Development near Bahamas

I got my question answered this morning -- both NBC2 in Ft. Myers and TWC in their 6 a.m. hour Tropical Update mentioned the upper level low. They both said the predicted result will be an increase in weekend showers, but neither indicated any reasonable chance of developing into anything other than a rain system.

Steve
(Senior Storm Chaser)
Fri Jun 08 2007 04:16 PM
Re: Possible Development near Bahamas

GFS (00Z) and CMC (12Z) show a possible surface reflection off the NW tip of the Yucatan toward the end of their runs (generally moving off to the west south of the TX/Mexico border). With the upper low backing SW from the Tip of Florida, my guess is that the models are sniffing out possible development in the SW Gulf in the middle of next week. That's the only thing of interest I can find near to the US right now. As to whether anything comes of this or not, stay tuned.

Steve


Steve
(Senior Storm Chaser)
Fri Jun 08 2007 09:14 PM
Re: Possible Development near Bahamas

NAM also sniffing out something in the northern BOC/Western Gulf toward the end of its run.

http://www.nco.ncep.noaa.gov/pmb/nwprod/analysis/carib/nam/06/index_slp_s_loop.shtml


typhoon_tip
(Meteorologist)
Fri Jun 08 2007 11:55 PM
Re: Possible Development near Bahamas

Quote:

I got my question answered this morning -- both NBC2 in Ft. Myers and TWC in their 6 a.m. hour Tropical Update mentioned the upper level low. They both said the predicted result will be an increase in weekend showers, but neither indicated any reasonable chance of developing into anything other than a rain system.




For future knowledge, TUTTs (or Tropical Upper Tropospheric Troughs) have a very long gestation period before they will convert to warm core; doing so through the entire depth of the troposphere (the region of the atmosphere between ~ the 100mb level and the surface) is an undertaking. While TUTTs, the clouds and shower activity are being driven by deep layer instability, in the form of cold air and associated low pressure aloft promoting lift, resulting convection and thunderstorms. But, the physics of this process are completely different than the physics of tropical cyclone genesis.


danielwAdministrator
(Moderator)
Sat Jun 09 2007 06:54 AM
Week Ahead

Checking the morning Area Forecast Discussions- from San Juan, PR through FL and west to New Orleans,LA.

Only New Orleans gave the GFS model a mention for the week ahead in the Tropics area.
Excerpt from AFD NWS Slidell,LA

GFS GENERATES A STRONG TROPICAL WAVE... PERHAPS SOMETHING MORE DEVELOPED... FRIDAY NEAR WEST CUBA.
GFS HAS A KNACK FOR DEVELOPING SPURIOUS SYSTEMS...BUT PATTERN SORT OF FAVORS DEVELOPMENT OF AT LEAST A WAVE AT THAT LATITUDE.
WILL MONITOR MODEL TRENDS... BUT LOCALLY THE RESULT COULD BE A TIGHTENING OF EASTERLY GRADIENT FOR NEXT WEEK THAT MAY RENEW HIGH TIDE ISSUES IN THE COASTAL SECTIONS.
http://www.srh.noaa.gov/productview.php?pil=AFDLIX&max=61 (time sensitve link)

Current water vapor and IR imagery indicate an area of Thunderstorms to the east of the Windward Islands. Persistance over the last 7 hours. (through 10Z 6am EDT). To the west of this area in the Eastern/Central Caribbean Sea is another weaker wave, barely visible on most imagery. These locations are evident in the "thumbnail" view in the top right corner of the page.
With the Windward Isles area being the more pronounced. I checked the morning Tropical Weather Discussion and TPC mentions these two areas, along with yet another wave near longitude 10W, just off the African Coast.
Using the 06Z upper air maps (great tools) one can see that the lower 850mb (5000ft level) winds in the Caribbean are easterly at 10kts. (The bold '10' is the windspeed). http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/tafb/QUNA00.jpg
However the upper level, 200mb winds are from the west at 30 kts. (read as 'wind shear', blowing the tops off of the higher clouds). http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/tafb/QHQA17.jpg

POINT SALINES,GRENADA TGPY 12.00N 061.47W
09/1000Z 06010KT 6000ft -SHRA VCSH BKN015 BKN280 27/25 Q1012 JP-N/NE
(wind NE at 11mph, Clouds at 6000ft, rain showers and showers in the vicinity, broken cloud layer at 1500ft and at 2800ft, temp 27C/ dew point 25C barometer 1012mb and lightning observed North through NE
(wind has changed from due East at 08Z, ENE at 09Z, and now NE at 10Z. Termed a backing wind, or counterclockwise wind.)
Observations are not entirely indicative of a tropical wave at Grenada.. but are consistant with most tropical wave observations.


madmumbler
(Storm Tracker)
Sat Jun 09 2007 09:03 AM
Re: Possible Development near Bahamas

Quote:

For future knowledge, TUTTs (or Tropical Upper Tropospheric Troughs) have a very long gestation period before they will convert to warm core; doing so through the entire depth of the troposphere (the region of the atmosphere between ~ the 100mb level and the surface) is an undertaking. While TUTTs, the clouds and shower activity are being driven by deep layer instability, in the form of cold air and associated low pressure aloft promoting lift, resulting convection and thunderstorms. But, the physics of this process are completely different than the physics of tropical cyclone genesis.




So we (Florida) are in the TUTT? So are all TUTTs cold air? And is that what they mean when they refer to cyclones as "warm core?"

I watched it on radar yesterday as it unfolded. We had a wicked line of storms come through late yesterday. I could see the faint spin between the satellite and the radar. It was interesting to see how the afternoon "flare up" (the traditional line of storms down the ridge of the state from the seabreeze) just bloomed and then sort of merged and started moving with the stuff generated by the low.

Thank you for taking the time to explain that to me. I appreciate knowledge on this board!


madmumbler
(Storm Tracker)
Sat Jun 09 2007 04:35 PM
Re: Week Ahead

This is from the NHC:
Quote:


205 PM EDT SAT JUN 09 2007
--snipped--
...TROPICAL WAVES...

A TROPICAL WAVE HAS BEEN ADDED TO THE 12Z SFC MAP OFF THE COAST
OF AFRICA ALONG 14W/15W S OF 13N ESTIMATED TO BE MOVING W 15-20
KT. THERE IS NOT MUCH DEBATE ABOUT THE EXISTENCE OR PSN OF THIS
WAVE WITH A LARGE AREA...ABOUT 10-12 DEGREES OF LONGITUDE...OF
WELL DEFINED LOW TO MID LEVEL CYCLONIC TURNING EVIDENT ON
SATELLITE IMAGES AND TO SOME DEGREE IN QSCAT DATA. THERE IS ALSO
A POSSIBLE LOW ALONG THE WAVE NEAR 7N WHICH MAY BE ADDED TO THE
18Z ANALYSIS. SFC OBS...MOSTLY STATIONS OVER AFRICA...CLEARLY
INDICATE THIS FEATURE WITH 24-H PRES DROPS IN THE 2-4 MB RANGE
IN DAKAR AND SURROUNDING CITIES. CONVECTION HAS DECREASED SOME
OVER THE PAST SEVERAL HOURS BUT SCATTERED MODERATE STILL EXISTS
FROM 4N-8N BETWEEN 13W-19W.




The only reason I'm asking is because TWC mentioned it in either their 2 or 3 pm Tropical Update. And the emphasis was on, "Low pressure systems don't usually survive when they come across from Africa," like it was a different feature than a "normal" tropical wave.

Are the pressure drops they're talking about "significant" or are they just mentioning them because they actually have surface observations due to it forming on shore?

I know we look to the BOC, GOM, and Carribbean this time of year, and I'm not saying I think this one is going to turn into anything either. I'm just wondering is it normal to see a feature this large come off Africa this time of year, and historically have any Cape Verde storms come across the Atlantic this time of year?

I guess what I'm asking is, is this an anomaly, or is it an interesting but nothing to worry about feature, or is it totally normal and NOT anomalous, or is it something we should keep an eye on (NOT wishcasting!!), or where does it exactly fit into the scheme of things? How do we separate the "don't worry about it" from the "keep an eye on it?"


BillD
(User)
Sat Jun 09 2007 05:41 PM
Re: Week Ahead

Every wave has some chance of developing, all the way from 0% to 100%. Long range forecasting isn't much more than a guessing game. Even during the Cape Verde "season", healthy looking strong waves that come off of Africa fizzle out. And the opposite is also true, almost invisible waves end up developing a week or two later when they get into the Caribbean. The NHC tracks every wave, but that doesn't mean it will ever be anything, in fact most of them never amount to much at all. In other words, the difference between "keep an eye on" and "not to worry" for waves doesn't mean much, particularly that far out.

Bill


cieldumort
(Moderator)
Sat Jun 09 2007 06:08 PM
Re: Week Ahead

The "wave" which just rolled off Africa is an especially impressive one, especially for this time of year, but nothing outlandishly out of the ordinary, either. There appeared and still appears to already exist a low to mid-level low center. Really, a very well organized thunderstorm cluster altogether when it came off the coast, complete with turning at the very least in the mid-levels, and some pretty decent outflow in the upper-levels. However, now it has the look of having lost most of it's deep convection. Will be waiting for the next satellite pass for any indications of having held together, structurally, and of deep convection ever coming back.

Certainly would have caught TWC's eye as a feature worth drawing the camera to, if not much else.. for the moment. Still, that feature is first-rate eastern Atlantic eye candy for the month of June, if you are into satellite images.

These waves which roll off the west coast of Africa and head our way during the season usually either fizzle out on their own, or get ingested and digested by amplified patterns and associated shear over the Atlantic, long before they have much chance to become anything more than a feature to watch. Several more just keep on keeping on westward, never decaying, but never amounting to much, either. These sometimes go on to become the fruits of East Pac named storms, of course.

While we're on the topic, NASA undertook a very impressive research project of easterly waves last year, (NAMMA), which provided an abundance of material for them to study for years and years to come. If you are interested in reading even more about the study you can still find some archived material from the actual real-time NASA African Monsoon Multidisciplinary Analyses here.

Also, we might comment more on the Caribbean to SE Gulf region, later. It is flaring up quite nicely today. Neither the trof east of Florida/Caribbean flareup, or the eastern Atlantic wave, are of any imminent concern to NHC, but then again their intensities and/or organization attest to more than some "wave mongering" over "blobs." There might be more to either or both of them in time.


madmumbler
(Storm Tracker)
Sat Jun 09 2007 06:49 PM
Re: Week Ahead

Bill and Ciel,

Thank you for your responses!

Am I correct then in my thinking that basically if it's not in the Carribbean/GOM/BOC or coming close to the east coast, then don't worry about it until "there's something to worry about?" In other words, watch if you want, but you don't have to pay attention to it?

Part of this is because I homeschool my 11 year old son, and I want to strike a balance between learning what to "watch" and what to "pay attention to" this time of year. We use weather as a large chunk of summer lessons. And part is because I need to educate myself more about what is and isn't "worth paying attention to."

Ciel, you mentioned Carribbean, are you talking that "blob" off of Panama? I thought that was just a blob and nothing to worry about, or is that what you meant, that that particular "blob" isn't something to worry about?

Thanks!


Ed DunhamAdministrator
(Former Meteorologist & CFHC Forum Moderator (Ed Passed Away on May 14, 2017))
Sat Jun 09 2007 08:48 PM
Re: Week Ahead

Your thinking is correct, and there are a variety of ways to determine the level of interest - or lack thereof.

The first would be the NHC Tropical Weather Outlook - link to the latest discussion is always available at the top of the Main Page.

Another would be the officials, Meteorologists and Weather Analysts on this site - if we haven't commented on a particular feature then I wouldn't get too worried about it. Even when we comment on something, it may only be to note something of casual interest.

Of course if NHC asks NRL to start an Invest on a tropical wave, that usually means that it is a feature that NHC wants to keep an eye on from the standpoint of the potential for future development (and remember, that potential is not always realized).

Finally, we may start a thread in the Storm Forum - often titled as an Area of Interest - when something catches our eye that may or may not develop further. If something develops and threatens, I'll usually post an Area of Concern in the Storm Forum - unless we have it well covered elsewhere on the site - usually the Main Page leadoff article.

Tropical Storm development in the far eastern Atlantic would be a rare event in June - and even if it did form it would still take about 10 days (or longer) to threaten the U.S. mainland, i.e., just something to watch for awhile. A good question, but nothing at all to get excited about out there yet.
Cheers,
ED


Cat 5orBust
(Weather Hobbyist)
Sat Jun 09 2007 09:03 PM
Re: Barry Gone, Quiet Again

93L is up on the navy site.....wave off of africa

HanKFranK
(User)
Sat Jun 09 2007 09:08 PM
Re: Week Ahead

if you're looking for something of interest in the next week, it will just about have to be in the western caribbean. down in the sw part there's a bit of itcz convection... aided by divergence southeast of a slowly retreating upper low. some of the forecast models are showing a weak low moving nw from there.... the globals differ in that some kick this energy ne out into the atlantic with the big upper vortex off the east coast drawing it out--others have it sliding nw. none have it doing much in terms of looking like anything but an innocuous little surface low. in any case, it's probably the best chance of anything occurring, and that means we'll probably have another quiet week of waiting for the active part of 2007 to creep closer.
HF 0208z10june


HanKFranK
(User)
Sat Jun 09 2007 09:43 PM
geez

just noticed that invest... you did while i was writing that post. i like to downplay stuff like that this time of year because the chances of it doing anything are marginal to nil. the quick history for systems like that in june is, in 1979 there was a tropical storm that formed and went into the islands before dissipating (formed june 19), and two depressions have graced the waters out there since (a td that formed june 23, 2000, and an even more surprising td that formed june 11, 2003. i suppose that there have to have been some earlier systems of this type (prior to the satellite period). just the same, this thing just came off africa, they usually collapse in 24-36 hours, and the historic record is strongly against anything happening.
but then again, this is kinda wow.
HF 0243z10june


cieldumort
(Moderator)
Sat Jun 09 2007 10:40 PM
Re: geez

Just a note that HF is talking about TDs that we know of during the month of June which formed somewhat close to where 93L is at this time.

Later in the season some Cape Verde storms get cooking from that region. Typically, systems that actually do develop that far east do make the early recurvature, as HF noted above. I was just reviewing 2000's Hurricane Alberto, as a classic example. Wikipedia Link


cieldumort
(Moderator)
Sun Jun 10 2007 06:03 AM
Re: geez

Pulsing of the convection, currently in a down-time, but this is fairly common with systems in their gestational phases, and beyond. One thing that has become much clearer overnight is that rather than two low centers competing with each other, which as been somewhat the case all along, it might be that the center now near 10N 23.5W as of this response is the winner. This could allow for some structural reorganization today, about that center.

So, we wait and see if this is actually one to make record books, if even it only just barely gets a name. Recon is not in there, so the best we have for a clue as to whether or not it may get officiated are the T numbers, which are up from doesn't rate to 1.0 now, although I would suggest that the "too weak" was probably an unrealistic appraisal. There's also the tea leaves within TWDs.

I want to see several hours of solid reorganization and some re-deepening of the convection before I truly start to get excited over this one. Regardless, it is still a very impressive feature considering the location, and month.

We have talk about model hints of something in the southern GOM and/or Caribbean. No doubt that pressures are running below climo here already, and overnight pressures have been falling even lower. No surprise, the mid-upper level retrograding tutt feature seems to be enhancing these surface pressure falls in the region and helping fan some convection, but also while increasing shear in much of the area, as well. No Invest tag here just yet. Still, it bears some watching considering that it's much closer to home than light-years-away 93L is.


nc_wx_watcher
(Verified CFHC User)
Sun Jun 10 2007 08:27 AM
Re: geez

Cieldumort I suppose this is what you're already talking about :

From a recent edit in the Storm Forum:
It has been requested at least three times during the pre-season that you should not post a discussion or bulletin from the NHC. The current bulletins are always available using the drop-down tabs at the top of the Main Page, i.e., they are already available on the site. It is okay to quote a portion of a bulletin to emphasize a point that you are making in your post.

From the previous edit for this post:
Use the PM feature for general comments/questions


Hugh
(Senior Storm Chaser)
Sun Jun 10 2007 09:58 AM
Re: geez

Some interesting things to watch today. 93L is a threat to absolutely no one, and the NRL animation isn't even center on it anymore beyond the last static image (and SSD has no floater up for it, or any other system, currently).

It's curious to me that 93L was declared worthy of investigation, but the bunch of clouds near Jamaica wasn't. As long as that huge low off the eastern seaboard remains in place, nothing is going to threaten the east coast, unless it can sneak in to the west of the low.

ETA: Looking at the animation I can find for the Caribbean in general, conditions don't appear all that favorable for development there, but, I still think it should be watched more closely than 93L, since it's in an area that climatologically is favorable, and since, well, it's closer to home than 93L.


cchsweatherman
(Weather Watcher)
Mon Jun 11 2007 08:01 AM
Re: geez

You make a very valid point there. The disturbance to thsouth of Cuba has shown signs of life as convection has started to blow up into one huge mass. It should be just as closely monitored as 93L. Time will only tell.

doug
(Weather Analyst)
Mon Jun 11 2007 10:38 AM
Re: geez

Had to check everything out this morning for myself as driving to my office today I heard a news cast that was on a Tampa radio station which "teased" a weather cast with the words normal weather week but a tropical system out of the Carribean may bring an increase in moisture by week's end.
Then I see this discussion of the showers south of Cuba...
All that is pretty clearly part of the mid/upper low that retrograded across south Florida Thursday & Friday and is hanging around. I ran a sample of the usual models, and they don't do anything with that over the period of their coverages.
Jeff Masters said the wind shear is too high across the area to support any development anyway should something try to get going from that trough...all looks quiet for this week.


cieldumort
(Moderator)
Mon Jun 11 2007 02:45 PM
Re: geez

Eh. Just an alternate view-

The Good Dr. Masters also posted that there wouldn't be a single organized tropical system during the entire first few weeks of June ("Due to the high levels of wind shear expected over the next two weeks, I'm forecasting only a 20% chance of a named storm forming during this period") ... within three hours of Barry being named. I thoroughly enjoy his posts, consider him brilliant, but enjoy thinking for myself even more than that. As for models, if we had a nickel for every time the models oversniffed or undersniffed a tropical or subtropical feature, we could probably take a pretty nice vacation on the tropical get-away of our choice.

Having gone there, it's still fairly obvious that the shear -is- a little high, but some of this may be coming down in spots, at least. Additionally, the TUTT which retrograded southwest from Florida is weakening now, and yet the convection continues. As do two apparent surface trofs: one in the southern GOM, and the other in the western Caribbean. In fact, the TUTT is now of the size and intensity where it may do more good to any feeble surface feature which tries to get going, than harm.

I might submit that given the persistence of the convection in the area, the resilience of some surface trofiness, and warm SSTs, moderate shear, while a detriment, may not be a basin killer, either. Furthermore, depending on which shear product you chose to look at for analysis, it's not altogether -that high- Take
CIRA's TCFP shear analysis, for example.

In fact, they currently analyze a slightly positive anomaly bias for TC formation, as shown
here.

Either way, it sure is looking mighty pretty down there right now - with mostly blue skies and only scattered convective clusters, and nothing imminent. 93L is heading that way, but it went poof, although remains as a wave with intermittent very slight convection. No "there" there at the moment, either, and several days away, at best.


typhoon_tip
(Meteorologist)
Tue Jun 12 2007 12:39 AM
Re: Barry Gone, Quiet Again

Yet another interesting wave with a clear embedded cyclonic gyre has emerged off of Africa. This is interesting in terms of an early signal. If we get one more of these, it would seem an interestingly high frequency of important disturbances may be establishing.

Currently, there is an area of 24C SST that exists N of approximately 12 degree of latitude, from the west coast of Africa to about 44W. The wave recently discussed, which is still there and still has some cyclonic nature to it, has lost its convection since passing bodily over this region (it currently is situated near 40W/15N and continues to move WNW). Once it arrives back over 26C SSTs, it will be near 45W by 16N; U/A is marginal at best at that location and as others have noted there is some shear from the west (NW), which picks up in intensity about 24 hours thereafter. Would not expect much out of this entity any more than some eye-candy already served.

These are for all intents and purposes, Cape Verde systems though, which means painfully long waits even if they do develop. It also remains climate suggested, unlikely for the time being -- but nothing is impossible.

John


Ed in Va
(Weather Master)
Tue Jun 12 2007 09:54 AM
Re: Barry Gone, Quiet Again

Someone posted a day or two ago about a low moving south from GA that could possibly merge with the disturbed weather south of Cuba. Looks like the GA part is on the move:
http://intellicast.com/National/Radar/Current.aspx?animate=true&enlarge=true


madmumbler
(Storm Tracker)
Tue Jun 12 2007 05:36 PM
Re: Barry Gone, Quiet Again

Quote:

Yet another interesting wave with a clear embedded cyclonic gyre has emerged off of Africa. This is interesting in terms of an early signal. If we get one more of these, it would seem an interestingly high frequency of important disturbances may be establishing.





I'm not sure what you mean by this. Could you please explain it?

Do you simply mean the high number of waves coming off Africa, or is there an atmospheric phenomenon you're referencing contributing to this?


typhoon_tip
(Meteorologist)
Wed Jun 13 2007 01:14 AM
Re: Barry Gone, Quiet Again

Quote:

Quote:

Yet another interesting wave with a clear embedded cyclonic gyre has emerged off of Africa. This is interesting in terms of an early signal. If we get one more of these, it would seem an interestingly high frequency of important disturbances may be establishing.





I'm not sure what you mean by this. Could you please explain it?

Do you simply mean the high number of waves coming off Africa, or is there an atmospheric phenomenon you're referencing contributing to this?




Yes to simply meaning a higher number of waves [so far] coming off Africa.

As to whether there is a specific atmospheric phenomenon contributing that is likely yes, too, but I have not performed any analysis [as of yet] to determine why that is, specifically.


cieldumort
(Moderator)
Wed Jun 13 2007 04:35 AM
Re: Barry Gone, Quiet Again

Looks like pressures are falling area-wide in the Caribbean tonight. Noteworthy, some run-to-run consistency from GFDL, as it has wanted to cook-up a respectable warm core depression of about 1000-1010 mb in the same general location where we witnessed Barry birth. Canadian somewhat agreeable for this, while other models seem to be sticking to the broad trofiness regime of late, more or less. Given tonights widespread and more respectable surface pressure falls coinciding with an increase in nocturnal convection, it could be something. Then again, it could just be a brief regional bad weather enhancement as a wave is pushing on through westward and a few strictly non-tropical impulses approach from the southeastern U.S. If I was to place bets on the region, I would say that something -is- trying to brew down there, if nothing more, and actually appears somewhat similar to how GFDL has been suggesting things would happen.

Old X-Invest 93L, the first true to form Cape Verde eye candy of the season (and early at that!), now the remnants of it existing as a weak but significant wave, looks about to start its approach to the Lesser Antilles later today. A few showers are starting to fire back up along it, at long last. Something to watch, as it likely will produce a few blustery moments and perhaps some showery weather as it passes, if nothing else.

Typhoon Tip's interest in the possible signal of early activity rolling off of western Africa will hopefully treat us to a more intensive analysis from him, or perhaps from a few of the long-time Flhurricane-member mets, should those trends continue. I believe climatology favors such easterly waves meet a very untimely demise this time of year... even those that become bona fide low-level low pressure systems/ borderline numberable features such as 93L briefly became, just bite the dust as they hit the cooler waters out there while ingesting the drier air, all while often encountering greatly increased wind shear, and any other impenetrable obstacles they may face. It's when they sneak up into the Caribbean, such as x93L may do this week, that historically there may be a 1 in 10 (?) to 1 in 20 (?) chance of -something- happening early in a season.


nc_wx_watcher
(Verified CFHC User)
Wed Jun 13 2007 05:29 PM
Re: Barry Gone, Quiet Again

Since it's already been said about pressures falling in the caribbean it appears that a high is trying to build overhead the NW Caribbean as indicated by the cloud field taking on a more circular appearance. Secondly, the area E of the Bahamas seems to be organising and deep convection is on the increase. Given the proximity of the areas to each other I do not believe that both could develop. If the Bahamas gets going first it will increase shear over the NW Caribbean and inhibit any chance of development there unless it heads off to the NE very quickly. The next 12 to 18 hrs will be interesting to watch especially as surface pressures in the NW Caribbean are relatively low ( 1010.5 here and 1009 to our South at the buoy ). What is any Mets or borad readers take on this scenario?

dem05
(User)
Wed Jun 13 2007 09:29 PM
Re: Barry Gone, Quiet Again

I'd like to make reference to both areas of weather in your post from least likely to more likely to have any shot at development.

Area 1.) The Bahamas...
Not a bad observation to recognize the activity over the bahamas, but this area is under higher levels of shear from an upper level cut off low off of Georgia, which is part of a string of now less than four(4) upper level cut-offs (Which are quite beautiful to watch on the water vapor loop. Link: http://www.ssd.noaa.gov/goes/east/nwatl/loop-wv.html ) ...This cut-off is actually sponsoring thunderstorm development and making this look like something more than it is. However, this development of thunderstorms is not of a nature that is tropical or subtropical. This area is not a candidte for development and as we see during this transitional time of year, such an area of activity will likely pulsate to the North East with little consequence. As for the next point of discussion, which is coming now...interactions of the earlier referenced cut-off lows would affect Carribean and Eastern GoMex development opportunities from an outflow standpoint.

Area 2.) The Northwest Caribbean...
Well, things might get interesting there. Right now, I give a 1 in 4 to a 1 in 3 chance of something popping down there. However, that is more like24-48 hours in my mind. The opportunity for amore favorable outflow environment may happen based on what is seen in the water vapor and there is some indication in the models. Let's tackle the water vapor first (Please revisit the loop link during this discussion). The upper low near the west side of the Yucatan seems some what planted in place. Grow more interested if this heads southwest or west. Second, the upper low referenced off of Georgia in the "Bahamas" part of this post is generally ENE. Whether the cut-off low westofthe Yucatan retrogrades or not, the area around the Yucatan Channel and the easter gulf will be more favorable in 24-48hours. If theupper level cut-off west of theYucatan does retrograde westward or southwest, then there will be a better development opportunity and the odds are no longer a one in four or a one in three bet.

As for the models,on my last quick look all of the with the exception of the Nogaps and the UKMET indicated some level of vorticity (Yes,at the 850mb level, I like that one too for potentially developing systems) The CMC was very fast in Forward Speed, the GFS was very slow, and the GFDL (TD 3-E Model Run) was almost looking too slow too. All models that demonstrate weak development show vorticities on the weaker end of the scale, so there is some promise of development on the tropical depression to weak tropical storm end if the models remain persistant. At high confidence, rain chances increase for the eastern Gulf interests on days 3-6. On the lower end of confidence, that rain may come with a couple gusts of wind and a name that will be remebered as another helper in the drought busting effort. If something does develop...At this time, something like Barry is as strong as I could imagine if something does develop, but time will tell if anything evolves at all.


danielwAdministrator
(Moderator)
Wed Jun 13 2007 11:56 PM
Tropical Discussion~excerpts

TROPICAL DISCUSSION - INTERNATIONAL DESKS
NWS HYDROMETEOROLOGICAL PREDICTION CENTER CAMP SPRINGS MD
218 PM EDT WED JUN 13 2007 (edited~danielw)

...A WANING TUTT OVER THE CENTRAL GULF/ CAMPECHE SOUND...WILL MOVE OVER YUCATAN PENINSULA BY 24 HRS... WITH WEAK VORTEX OVER THE YUCATAN CHANNEL BY 48 HRS. AT 60-72 HRS IT WILL LIFT ACROSS WESTERN CUBA AS IT MERGES INTO THE BASE OF A BROAD TROUGH OVER THE BAHAMAS/ EASTERN USA.

...WITH A STRONG VORTEX ACROSS NORTHERN GEORGIA/ CAROLINAS TO MOVE OFF THE COAST AND NORTH OF THE BAHAMAS BY 24 HRS.
AT 500 HPA THIS VORTEX WILL MERGE/ INTERACT WITH THE REMNANTS OF THE TUTT OVER YUCATAN/ WESTERN CUBA... TO FAVOR/ SUSTAIN AN ELONGATED TROUGH ACROSS WESTERN CUBA
INTO THE YUCATAN.
AT LOW LEVELS A MEANDERING FRONT WILL SLIDE OVER THE NORTHWEST BAHAMAS BY 18 HRS...TO REMAIN NEARLY STATIONARY ACROSS GREAT ABACO-GRAND BAHAMA THROUGH 48-54 HRS...THEN WEAKEN AS IT RETROGRESSES.

(edit~danielw: Basically... Florida receives more rain/ rain showers)

...A PROGRESSIVE TROPICAL WAVE IS INITIALIZED ALONG 63W AND SOUTH OF 17N.
THIS WAVE WILL MOVE ALONG 67/68W BY 24 HRS... 71W/72W BY 36 HRS...74W BY 48 HRS...76W/77W BY 60 HRS...78W BY 72 HRS...AND 80W/81W BY 84 HRS.
WINDS ARE TO SURGE ACROSS THE LESSER ANTILLES FOLLOWING THIS WAVE... WITH GFS PROJECTING 850 HPA (5000ft~) WINDS OF 25-35KT ACROSS THE ISLANDS BY 24-84 HRS.
THE STRONG WINDS WILL SPREAD INTO THE CENTRAL CARIBBEAN THROUGH 36-42 HRS... WITH WINDS OF 35-45KT.

(edit~danielw: 850mb winds adjusted to surface levels are just under Tropical Storm force. Using an 80% correction)

CARIBBEAN FORECAST DISCUSSION


nc_wx_watcher
(Verified CFHC User)
Thu Jun 14 2007 09:10 AM
Re: Tropical Discussion~excerpts

HUH? sorry but can you please put all of that in Layman terms so I can understand.

doug
(Weather Analyst)
Thu Jun 14 2007 11:03 AM
Re: Tropical Discussion~excerpts

Try to look at a water vapor sattelite loop as you read the discussion and then you'll see the features discussed there...basicaly there is what is called "troughiness" in the vernacular across the SE GOM SW ATL and the Cuba/ Yucatan regions. There is a weak surface feature on the N coast of Yucatan, but no upper support due to the dry air in the upper feature it is associated with (TUTT). It will move toward the Bahamas. As it does so the big upper low now dropping off the SE coastline will continue toward the Bahamas. This upper low was responsible for the unstable air that spawned some severe weather in peniinsula Florida yesterday in the wake of a weak back door wind shift line and the infusion of cold dry air into the upper atmosphere. All this is expected to vascilate back and forth over the next several days which would allow for thunderstorms to increase in Florida, as indeed they are predicted to do (40-50% probabilities).
At least that is how I read it and see it in the WV loops.


Ricreig
(User)
Thu Jun 14 2007 11:06 AM
Re: Tropical Discussion~excerpts

Quote:

HUH? sorry but can you please put all of that in Layman terms so I can understand.


There are two areas of unsettled weather in areas that this time of the year can develop into significant weather affecting or potentially affecting us. One is off the E coast of Fla in the Bahamas. I don't see this as being a problem for numerous reasons but any time there is unsettled weather in this area, you need to at least watch it...just in case. The other area is now a bit south of Cuba and is in an area that could be a little more 'interesting' I think given all of the factors available at this time, the thinking is that this *might* bring a little more rain to the Florida area but conditions are marginal for it to develop into anything you should be afraid of. Again, this time of the year, and in that area, any thing that is unsettled as this is bears watching and regardless of this or any other system, it is prudent to check out your emergency plans and supplies for when and if something does develop.

allan
(Weather Master)
Thu Jun 14 2007 11:09 AM
Re: Tropical Discussion~excerpts

It's not even an invest area and recon JUST schedualed to go out there and investigate it.. has that ever happened when it was not an invest before?
Anyways.. I think it has a slight chance for development. Shear is very low in the area right now but north of there it is around 30-40 knots. So we will see what happens in the future of what is now an invest area??


scottsvb
(Weather Master)
Thu Jun 14 2007 11:14 AM
Re: Tropical Discussion~excerpts

Here's the thing. We have a disturbed area in the NW Carribean... a few models have been hinting at a weak area of low pressure to develop down near Cuba for a few days now. CMC and what the GFDL was hinting at a tropical storm (possibility) moving thru the EGM by Friday night into Saturday. Last night...we had a low-mid level circulation develop. If the models under-done this just alittle..then we need to go in and get data.

Hurricane29
(Weather Guru)
Thu Jun 14 2007 11:33 AM
Re: Tropical Discussion~excerpts

(Do not simply repost tropical bulletins/discussions/forecasts from the NHC - they are always available as drop-down selections at the top of the Main Page.)

CaneTrackerInSoFl
(Storm Tracker)
Thu Jun 14 2007 03:59 PM
Re: Tropical Discussion~excerpts

Recon was scheduled? I don't see it on the Atlantic requirements anywhere.

cieldumort
(Moderator)
Thu Jun 14 2007 04:24 PM
Re: Tropical Discussion~excerpts

1000 AM EDT THU 14 JUN 2007
SUBJECT: TROPICAL CYCLONE PLAN OF THE DAY (TCPOD)
VALID 15/1100Z TO 16/1100Z JUNE 2007

I. ATLANTIC REQUIREMENTS
1. SUSPECT AREA (GULF OF MEXICO)
A. 15/1800Z

2. OUTLOOK FOR SUCCEEDING DAY.....NEGATIVE.
http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/text/MIAREPRPD.shtml?

I think the take-away is really this:
2. OUTLOOK FOR SUCCEEDING DAY.....NEGATIVE.


Some perspective, perhaps -

The fact of the matter is a low-level to surface trof has been in the western Caribbean in one form or another for a few days now. Recently, a surface low center has developed in the extreme northwestern Caribbean - just about where GFDL and CMC expected it to. Both of those models forecast a warm-core depression, perhaps a weak TS.

If one was to give equal weight to all of the most often cited models, there would be an expectation of a 1 in 4 chance of a TC forming in that general area by the end of this weekend, or so. Given the big picture, and that backdrop, NHC certainly is keeping an eye on this. However, as they state, upper-level winds are not favorable for development. This is not to say that something doesn't pop. It does suggest that anything which tries to get going, as is indeed the case, will have an unusually difficult time pulling it off.

Edited for clarity-

Simply because a feature has a less than an ideal environment in which to "pull it off" does not mean that recon won't fly in, especially when such a suspect area is precariously close to potential landfall(s). Additionally, even if such a feature which may develop may not do so for a few more days going out, it -could- do so sooner rather than later, although a slower progression (if any) under conditions like these seems more plausible.


audienceofone
(Verified CFHC User)
Thu Jun 14 2007 05:20 PM
Re: Tropical Discussion~excerpts

Given the unfavorable conditions and limited activity so far, combined with the predictions for a very active season, can someone validate sending recon on an already limited budget? I've understood that there's been budget problems late in the season before and I'm just curious as to why recon would be sent so early with so little chance for development. Is there more to this disturbance than meets the eye? With all evidence pointing to nothing popping until late in the weekend, why not wait until there's something more to look at?

Hurricane29
(Weather Guru)
Thu Jun 14 2007 08:22 PM
Re: Tropical Discussion~excerpts

This area is now an invest -94L by NRL.



BillD
(User)
Thu Jun 14 2007 08:32 PM
Re: Tropical Discussion~excerpts

Just because they scheduled a recon flight does not mean it will actually happen. Invest or not the NHC must think that there is some possibility, however remote, (as stated by several other posters in this thread) of a tropical system forming. Who knows, they may be holding their finger over the invest trigger right now. Recon is scheduled for early afternoon on Friday, they have plenty of time to cancel.

EDIT: Just after I submitted this I see that we have 94L, they did have their finger over the invest trigger

Bill


BillD
(User)
Thu Jun 14 2007 09:00 PM
Re: Tropical Discussion~excerpts

New thread up for 94L.

Bill



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