MikeCAdministrator
(Admin)
Thu Jun 14 2007 08:51 PM
Watching the Western Caribbean...

8PM Thursday Update
Active tropical wave, with perhaps a weak mid-level circulation, centered just off the northeast borders of Nicaragua/Honduras should move to the west northwest toward northern Belize. Shows some signs of improving outflow to the north, but windshear of 30-35kts just north of the wave is expected to remain at that strength for the next couple of days. Pretty low on the development scale, but we'll watch it for awhile.

Honduras

Weak non-tropical low about stationary just off Jacksonville, Florida, is forecast to elongate and weaken over the next 24 to 48 hours. Windshear over the system is light and forecasted to stay that way, but convection was minimal today - a long shot at best.
ED

Florida

8AM Saturday Update
This system has moved east, and never did the northwestern jog talked about, It's chance to develop in the Caribbean or Gulf is gone, and it's become more of a trough of low pressure. It did not show any signs of development yesterday and still isn't this morning.

It is likely nothing will happen with this system. Behind it, nothing else really has much potential to develop. June is usually a fairly quiet month and activity doesn't start to pick up until late July or August. Despite having two named systems already this year, it's climatologically likely that it will be slow for the rest of this month. We'll be watching, however.


Original Update
An disturbed weather area in the Northwestern Caribbean Sea has kicked up enough for the Hurricane Center to consider flying aircraft into it tomorrow, and we'll be watching it from here.

Currently, the winds in the upper atmosphere aren't really conductive for development, but it may change. If this area of low pressure persists into later tomorrow, the winds relax and the potential for development is greater. However, it is projected to drift northwest over the tip of the Yucatan in the short term, so that would also prevent Development from occurring.

Most models have it moving into the Gulf and Florida and the central to eastern Gulf states will want to be watching to see how much, if any, this develops. More rain will be involved at the very least.



More to come as more is learned.

{{StormLinks|94L|94|3|2007|3|94L (New System links may not yet be updated)}}

{{StormCarib}}



nc_wx_watcher
(Verified CFHC User)
Thu Jun 14 2007 11:13 PM
Re: Watching the Northwest Caribbean...

Just my 2 cents but if it doesn't "do" anything by tonight at ear;iest through Friday morning you can go ahead and hang it up pn 94L. I say this because the winds aren't terribly unfavorable but it does have a small window of opp. to go ahead and focus. If it does organize it will be a weak TS at best (if that). I honestly don't see it even becoming a TD unless they pull another "Barry" and just go ahead and name it.

dem05
(User)
Thu Jun 14 2007 11:59 PM
Re: Watching the Northwest Caribbean...

I have to agree with the NHC TWO on this one. The Upper level winds will begin to slacken as we move into tomorrow afternoon, and could become more and more favorable as we move through Friday night and into the weekend. Last night, I made refernce to an upper level low to the west of theYucatan as well as some other upper level features. Last nights post reflected more on the idea that the upper level low west of the Yucatan and could aid in some weak development (at the time, I was saying in about 48 hours). As we can see this evening, the upper level low did not remain planted to the west of the Yucatan. In fact, the the upper trough over Florida seems to have grabbed that upper low and has pulled it off to the east north east. At this time, the upper level low is presently over 94L and is on it's way out.

While this upper level low is harming 94L's opportunity to become better organized at this time, it is moving out fairly quickly and should not overly harm the basic dynamics that are permitting this surface area of low pressure (94L) in the western Carribean. As the upper level low departs to the ENE, there is an area of ridging and lighter upper winds across the western GOMex and Mexico that will have an opportunity to fill in behind the cutoff. With that said, this air mass is a bit "arid", but the winds will become more favorable over the Western Carribean and the Eastern Gulf. I know I have seen tropical systems that developed while working with less. Tropical Storm Arlene in 2005 is not a bad example. So with that said, I would not write this one off if it does not develop in the next 24 hours and I believe that tomorrow night into Saturday will be more interesting with respect to development opportunities.

P.S. The Water Vapor Link demonstrates tonight's observations pretty good: http://www.ssd.noaa.gov/goes/east/watl/loop-wv.html


dem05
(User)
Fri Jun 15 2007 12:26 AM
Re: Watching the Northwest Caribbean...

Just in quick addition to the previous post. The weather analysis identifies surface low pressure area over the western Carribean as an elongated system. The NCEP Fronts analys is on the carribean satellite loops identifies the a 1006 mb Low off of Cozumel and a1007 mb low north of Hondorus within this elongated system. With this upper level air pattern, even though the area north of Hondorus has slightly higher pressure, what originates from there will likely be a better area to watch than the 1006mb low off of Cozumel.

Shortwave Link (Hint, click on the NCEP Fronts at the top of the satellite loop image to observe the orientation of these two surface lows within the trough): http://www.ssd.noaa.gov/goes/east/watl/loop-ir2.html


cieldumort
(Moderator)
Fri Jun 15 2007 01:50 AM
Re: Watching the Northwest Caribbean...

I generally read the situation unfolding similar to Dem, above. With not only the old cut-off TUTT which had been stationed over the NW tip of the Yucatan pulling out to the ENE, but the entire slew of upper level devils embedded within the very large troff which have been collectively bringing severe weather to much of the east coast this week also on their way to slowly pulling out, the surface troffiness which is now tagged as 94L may begin to pull northward, or either side of northward (my best guess at this time is a little more off to the NNE, much as several model runs have already indicated ).

However, a lot of this - whatever "this" ends up being - is really dependent on just which part of the surface low pressure troffiness actually takes hold (if any). For example, if we see the southern Caribbean pop more impressively, we could watch as something cooks a while longer, becomes stronger before heading north - or, conversely, just simply scooting over Central America and out into the East Pac. To qualify, this area is not currently tagged as being 94L, but has had a fleeting LLC this past week along the base of the parent trof, just the same.

Should the feature remain quite shallow and form a bit to the north - about where the two centers of lower pressure have recently been analyzed to be - I suspect "this" could even drift off to the northwest, being pulled along within a weak LLJ towards Texas or western Louisiana.

Then there is that development of choice, or what has been up until today, anyhow - a weak warm-core depression heading north or northeast.

Of course, all of these still remain low probabilities, but plain and simple, odds favor that 94Ls chances for further development go up once all that mess of ULLs and their associated 30 to 60 knot winds o' shredding pull further out of it's picture. If anything, if something really does get going here, a little bit of that ULL energy off to the northeast could make for a convenient source of outflow - bears watching.

By the way, I found a nugget of sorts in tonight's "corrected" TWO. Here's what I found a little interesting:
"...CORRECTED TO ADD ELSEWHERE IN THE LAST SENTENCE...
FOR THE NORTH ATLANTIC...CARIBBEAN SEA AND THE GULF OF MEXICO...
....ELSEWHERE...TROPICAL CYCLONE FORMATION IS NOT EXPECTED DURING THE
NEXT 48 HOURS."

Make of that what you will. I do take it to mean that NHC (or at the very least JB) does intend to convey that the area of disturbed weather (94L) may become a TC -within- 48 hours. This position would make quite a bit of sense actually, especially given the explicit heads-up to a possible recon as early as tomorrow afternoon, and the statements of an expected improving upper level environment.


nc_tropical_wx79
(Weather Guru)
Fri Jun 15 2007 09:24 AM
Re: Watching the Northwest Caribbean...

I understand what you're saying Demo and Cieldumort but on sat. 94L looks a big unorganized complete mess! I know you really shouldn't compare TC because they are their own individual "animals" so I won't compare. As much of a mess and unimpressive as it looks is recon still schedule to fly into 94L and if they are then why? and what do you both think they will find out there?

nc_tropical_wx79
(Weather Guru)
Fri Jun 15 2007 10:11 AM
Re: Watching the Northwest Caribbean...

I just read Dr. Master's blog and he feels like the recon will be canceled today and set up again for Sat. He also, feels like the winds in the northern gulf will be too strong so it will be at best another Barry a good rain maker but winds may get up to 50mph at best. I see where he is getting this from and have to agree I feel like this will be another Barry a good rainmaker and a storm that should have had sub tropical in front of it's name because it was but didn't. Found out recon is scheduled for 2pm but don't see it happening since it's stil disorganized and winds read at 15mph associated with the "disturbance". Winds will be calming though so yes Sat & Sunday are the 2 big days for the disturbance it's possible for it to develope.

allan
(Weather Master)
Fri Jun 15 2007 10:20 AM
Re: Watching the Northwest Caribbean...

I don't agree with Masters. He's a good meteorologist but needs to really look at the storms before he makes his judgements on them. 94L on the other hand, looks bad this morning BUT recon is a go right now and the main reason for recon still on tabs is to find a center of circulation, not to see if it is a deppression or storm. So soon we will know where the real circualtion is from the Hurricane Hunters. I wasn't trying to bash Masters, it's like wunderground bloggers worship him when most of the time, his predictions are wrong. I think we will see a better looking disturbance tomorrow morning or maybe this evening as i'm seeing convection developing near the real center.

(As noted below, the recon for today has been cancelled - there is simply nothing there worthy of further investigation. I am relieved that you were not trying to bash Dr Masters because most of the time you feel that his predictions are wrong - because otherwise, I'd have to remove your post - and using your same reasoning it would be a violation of site rules for anyone to bash you. The windshear in the basin suggests to me that tropical cyclone development is not likely for at least a week.)


Ed DunhamAdministrator
(Former Meteorologist & CFHC Forum Moderator (Ed Passed Away on May 14, 2017))
Fri Jun 15 2007 10:23 AM
Just Some Notes

Regarding the NHC use of the term 'elsewhere', this is standard practice in the TWO whenever the NHC has highlighted one or more areas in the Outlook. Its just proper english, nothing more, to signify that beyond the areas that have been mentioned, there are no other areas of concern in the basin. Here is a snippet from the Outlook issued on June 1st, prior to the formation of Barry to illustrate the point:

"...THIS SYSTEM HAS SOME POTENTIAL FOR
TROPICAL OR SUBTROPICAL DEVELOPMENT OVER THE NEXT DAY OR SO AS IT
MOVES NORTHWARD INTO THE SOUTHERN GULF OF MEXICO. REGARDLESS OF
DEVELOPMENT...LOCALLY HEAVY RAINS ARE EXPECTED ACROSS WESTERN CUBA
AND PORTIONS OF THE FLORIDA PENINSULA DURING THE NEXT COUPLE OF
DAYS. PLEASE MONITOR PRODUCTS ISSUED BY YOUR LOCAL WEATHER SERVICE
OFFICE FOR MORE DETAILS.

ELSEWHERE...TROPICAL CYCLONE FORMATION IS NOT EXPECTED DURING THE
NEXT 48 HOURS."

The statement does not imply that tropical cyclone development is expected for the areas that were discussed - it only means that these areas have the potential for development OR that the NHC is monitoring these areas.

From the TC Plan of the Day: "INVEST FOR 15/1800Z IN GULF OF MEXICO
CANCELED BY NHC AT 15/1235Z."

Please do not post comments on the economical virtues of RECON on the Main Page - at best, these belong in the E&N Forum. Remember that the Plan of the Day is simply just that - its a Plan. NHC must schedule for these Air Force Reserve resources (aircraft and personnel) in advance of any anticipated need. These requests are often cancelled during the course of a season when the area of initial concern does not develop further.
ED


audienceofone
(Verified CFHC User)
Fri Jun 15 2007 12:12 PM
Re: Watching the Northwest Caribbean...

GFS seems to be showing this system not developing much until after it's moved over FL. What are the chances of having something of a hybrid system develop, assuming that the upper level winds cooperate soon enough? Maybe becoming Barryish and dumping FL with more rain?

Ricreig
(User)
Fri Jun 15 2007 12:19 PM
Re: Watching the Northwest Caribbean...

I continue to feel that it is premature to completely write off any disturbance in the area south of Cuba however it is becoming more evident that the feature being tracked between the Yucatan and the area S. of Cuba is failing to develop. It appears the Recon that was scheduled for later today has been canceled for good reason. The latest surface analysis suggests that the two low pressure areas near the Yucatan are dissipating. Satellite still shows some convective activity but not directly associated with the low pressure centers. WV loops show the moisture migrating to the north has regressed somewhat. As there is a tropical wave approaching this area and a weak trough remains, and the SSTs are now high enough to provide energy for some development, I would continue to watch the area but for now I'm not even sure we will even get the badly needed rain I was looking for earlier. It could still happen but my thinking is not this time from this system.

danielwAdministrator
(Moderator)
Fri Jun 15 2007 03:23 PM
Re: Watching the Northwest Caribbean...

...SATELLITE IMAGERY SHOWS A WANING TUTT ACROSS THE YUCATAN CHANNEL TO THE WESTERN CARIBBEAN. THIS TROUGH WILL GRADUALLY WEAKEN THROUGH 42-48 HRS AS IT MOVES THROUGH WESTERN CUBA TO SOUTHERN FLORIDA/NORTHWEST BAHAMAS.
AT LOW LEVELS A TROUGH EXTEND FROM GUATEMALA TO WESTERN CUBA/NORTHWEST BAHAMAS.
THE TROUGH WILL REMAIN NEARLY STATIONARY THROUGH 48-54 HRS... THEN MOVE WEST ACROSS SOUTHERN MEXICO-YUCATAN-NORTHEAST GULF OF MEXICO BY 60-72 HRS.
http://www.hpc.ncep.noaa.gov/discussions/fxca20.html

Sat imagery through 1825Z 225pmEDT is showing light winds in the NW Caribbean. Sea breeze front moving onshore over the Eastern Yucatan Coast.
There is possibly a broad area of lower pressure and an ever so slight broad circulation visible . Between the Yucatan Channel and the Honduran Coast.
The Sun is nearly overhead lending to cloud shadows on the surface.
http://wwwghcc.msfc.nasa.gov/GOES/goeseastconus.html

Unless a shortwave can swing through the Eastern GOM, I don't see much chance of the Upper FL Peninsula getting more than the usual afternoon showers and thunderstorms.

Just a quick roundup. I'm not a MET and I didn't stay at Holiday Inn last night


HURRICANELONNY
(Weather Guru)
Fri Jun 15 2007 04:24 PM
Re: Watching the Northwest Caribbean...

I hate to say it but every time the NWS raises the pops above 60%. It never happens. Yep will have some afternoon showers in S FL this weekend but I think that's it. The bulk of the moisture looks to head east of Florida. Hopefully I'm wrong and the lake gets lots of rain but I don't see it right now.

Hurricane29
(Weather Guru)
Fri Jun 15 2007 04:35 PM
Re: Watching the Northwest Caribbean...

We'll atleast the miami NWS has changed there tune a bit...



AREA FORECAST DISCUSSION
NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE MIAMI FL
227 PM EDT FRI JUN 15 2007

.DISCUSSION...BIG DIFFERENCES IN 12Z MODEL RUNS CONSIDERING DEEP
TROPICAL MOISTURE TO OUR SOUTH AND THIS HAS RESULTED IN DECISION
IN GOING CLOSER TO THE ENSEMBLE RUN. THE GFS NOW HAS A SFC LOW
DEVELOPING OVER THE WESTERN CARIBBEAN AND MOVING ACROSS S FLA ON
SATURDAY. THE LOW CONTINUES TO TRACK NE INTO THE BAHAMAS BY
SUNDAY. EITHER SCENARIO HAS POPS ALL OVER THE PLACE FROM MAV AND
MET GUIDANCE. THIS ANOTHER REASON TO GO WITH THE ENSEMBLE. WHEREAS
THE GFS SHOWS THIS SFC LOW, THE NAM HOWEVER SHOWS A COMPLETELY
DIFFERENT SYNOPTIC PATTERN WITH UPPER RIDGE OVER THE CARIBBEAN
BUILDING INTO THE SE GOFMEX WHICH PUSHES THE TROPICAL BOUNDARY
NORTHWARD WHILE THE UPPER LOW OFF THE MID ATLANTIC COAST MOVES
FARTHER AWAY INTO THE N ATLANTIC. WITH THE GFS JUST SHOWING THIS
LOW IN ITS LATEST RUN, HAVE OPTED TO IGNORE THAT IN THE WIND
FIELD. SO IT REALLY DEPENDS ON HOW THIS ALL TRANSPIRES AS TO HOW
MUCH PRECIP S FLA DEVELOPS. AT ANY RATE, ALL MODELS SHOW A DRYING
TREND TO ENSUE EARLY NEXT WEEK.


cieldumort
(Moderator)
Fri Jun 15 2007 05:07 PM
Re: Watching the Northwest Caribbean...

Having been watching this area of lower pressure somewhat closely for going on four, five ? days now, it only seems appropriate to me to see it tagged as an invest. -And- if you take a quick eyeball of the region today without getting into the nitty-gritties it's easy to exclaim, "Ah hah!" But really, the pressure tendencies in the area are nowhere near as impressive as they were around 15 00Z. At that time some area reports were even coming in with some rapidly falling pressures.

Convection appears much more impressive, but as stated elsewhere, a lot of this is likely resulting from diffluence aloft, mostly care of the elongated ULL and the weakening TUTT which are still affecting weather in the area. Some hints of a possible surface reflection, tho. Might be something. I guess all of this still just has much more "mongering" flavor to it than I prefer, especially with the upper-levels still close to brutal for tropical cyclone development. Eh.

Nonetheless, having yet again qualified and justified actually watching this feature, it's interesting to note that the earlier GFDL run did make a very strong tropical storm out of "it" and now the very latest GFS run develops a bona fide surface low in the area. Other hints of a good moisture surge and pulling northeastward of the entire ITCZ. Yet more hints of the ULLs pulling even farther away still. Good convection already exists. One could almost talk themselves into believing some of the more outrageous model runs on it... assuming an active imagination.

Should at least become somewhat helpful to see what starts happening in the big regional picture over the next 24 hours, as to just which way the synoptic environment for 94L ultimately turns. Either way, I think it seems plausible that at least SoFlo gets some decent moisture import in part care of 94L, in one form or another.


LoisCane
(Veteran Storm Chaser)
Fri Jun 15 2007 07:33 PM
Re: Watching the Northwest Caribbean...

The thing here to remember when reading the NHC discussion is to READ them.. and we tend to want to read into them what we think or want to see.

What did they say when they first brought this up officially..

Conditions might be more favorable in 48 hours.
It looked crummy yesterday, diffuse last night and this morning.. oddly it looks better tonight.

You can at least see the spot where the "center" for lack of a better word where the disturbance is vs the rain that keeps getting blown off to the ne. I'd call it more an impulse, anchored there sort of... the water vapor shows it well as does the other shortwave loop. Warning..the visible will make you go blurry eyed if you keep zooming in.

So... I guess we will see tomorrow morning if they were right and if conditions will be more favorable for development.

Good comment on the front page of this board about watching and learning.

Up til the last few hours I would have laughed the possible system off... I think something *might* be happening.

Keep watching..
http://www.ssd.noaa.gov/goes/east/watl/loop-wv.html

Note the frontal boundary there is changing, air currents are changing and I think shear is getting lighter.


allan
(Weather Master)
Fri Jun 15 2007 09:32 PM
Re: Watching the Northwest Caribbean...

I agree, a very small yet clear circulation has formed just east of where the invest was yesterday.. very small with some convection on the southeast side. Everybody is yet again on wunderground killing it BUT isn't this the time of day where convection would decrease? A blow up may occur tonight near wherever the real low is forming and could be looking impressive in the morning, or it could do nothing and just be rain for south and central Florida. I'm leaning towards development
Oh and it also has to have structure, and with structure comes weakening convection.. I think it's trying to form a low pressure structure right now.. again, we'll see what happens.


GuppieGrouper
(Weather Master)
Fri Jun 15 2007 10:00 PM
Re: Watching the Northwest Caribbean...

Actually, the diurnal cycle of diminished convection on a tropical storm or better tends to occur in the early morning and flare up at night. This system may have a low attached to it, but most of the convection does not appear to have any rain in it. It also appears to be trailing the last front unless the satellites I am looking at are older than 4 hours.

Lamar-Plant City
(Storm Tracker)
Sat Jun 16 2007 12:00 AM
Re: Watching the Northwest Caribbean...

A bit of a shock to run the GFDL on this system and see that IT shows a pretty solid low pressure center moving directly over top of me in 36-48 hours (Tampa area). There is VERY little on the satellites in that area right now and all the convection has been drawn off to the east in the trough. I had a feeling about this area earlier in the week (see forcast lounge), but it really doesn't look like much at this point. Be nice to have a solid rain event out of it though. We'll keep watching

HanKFranK
(User)
Sat Jun 16 2007 10:21 AM
blockiness abounds

i've been highly preoccupied for about a week, just took a couple of glances at 94L. it never had a whole lot going for it, because west-east oriented upper shear jets that don't try to split or curl up into upper lows are the bane of tropical cyclones. doesn't help that the surface convergence the thing was generating is way out under the rough shear, with a lot of the convection firing elsewhere. it's all migrating out into the atlantic past the bahamas now, and the synoptic pattern isn't budging.
this upper pattern has held sway longer than expected. right now there's still an upper low stuck in the red river valley, giving east texas a daily dose of rain, with a large upper trough stuck near the east coast. it rained here or near here pretty much every day this week, with the peculiar thing being the thunderstorms coming down from the northeast and north--not the usual for this time of year. until the pattern decides to budge or reorient i can't see much of anything developing. the upper vortices and shortwaves are generally staying too far to the north to undergo hybrid development, and their effect is to produce daunting amounts of shear in the favored june development regions.
the only thing of interest on the horizon is that several of the forecast models (albeit, not all) are showing a weakness in the eastern gulf late next week from a shortwave that snaps off, appearing to close and retrograde. the gulf is warm enough to work a storm out of that sort of happenstance, but a couple more days of models showing this, and a growing bandwagon are still in order to get truly interested. it is the sort of thing you'd look for this time of year, at least.
there's one other thing of late that has me wondering what we're in for this year. global tropical cyclone activity has been on the down low for months. the westpac is having a persistent, non-starter pattern and isn't likely to get much seasonal-scale help with the weak la-nina signature in the tropical pacific, the southern hemisphere seasons were fairly blunt and not terribly active earlier, and the only places that so far seem to have shown any vigor have been the atlantic and north indian ocean. gonu was sort of a freak and i don't know what can be said for it's implications, but with the atlantic so far acting a bit more perky than normal, the eastpac sort of trudging, and the western pacific not doing much of anything to evacuate all that latent heat building in the tropics, i'm wondering if the atlantic is going to take up the job later.
of course, there have been years where global tropical cyclone activity was just inexplicably down (see 1977). normally, though, you'd expect to see some basins really rocking, and others sort of snoozing. seeing the atlantic try to make up for the balance and go hyper-active this year wouldn't surprise me a heck of a lot.
HF 1521z16june


allan
(Weather Master)
Sat Jun 16 2007 11:38 AM
Re: Watching the Northwest Caribbean...

Hmm nothing early this morning but something is going on near that same circulation I pointed out yesterday.. a blow up.. this late lol?? Wow, something to really keep an eye on.. it's finally seperated from the trough and it could become a TD soon.. even though NHC says it won't.. just something to keep an eye on, would'nt write it off yet... at least the navy hasn't. The IR is showing some nice convection around the little spin.

scottsvb
(Weather Master)
Sat Jun 16 2007 12:46 PM
Re: Watching the Northwest Caribbean...

where are you talking about Allan? By the Yucitan? Only area I see that could develop (nontropical) is near the bahamas heading out into the atlantic. Yucatan is at the tail end of the convergence. Pressures are up actually in that area.

(personal inquiry removed)


nc_tropical_wx79
(Weather Guru)
Sun Jun 17 2007 08:52 AM
Re: Watching the Northwest Caribbean...

Allan I'd like to know also, what area you are talking about thats soon to be a TD? I can't find any mention of such an area on the NWS site or on any other site.

When you have a question such as the above, PM the poster.


danielwAdministrator
(Moderator)
Wed Jun 20 2007 12:33 AM
Satellite Links

Please be sure to check the time stamps on your satellite imagery.

As of 0430Z,12:30 AM EDT, Wednesday, June 20th. The satellite imagery for the SSD Gulf of Mexico has not updated since 1130Z, or 6:30AM EDT, Tuesday.

The other... few links that I have checked appear to be working.

Thankfully there aren't a lot of convective areas to be watching.~danielw


HanKFranK
(User)
Wed Jun 20 2007 05:10 PM
new entry

there's a weak front pushing off the southeast coast right now. models vary on whether to leave any of the upper energy behind or to take it out and flatten the trough base. most do very little with it, slowly washing it out near florida over the next couple of days. worth a glance, since these things occasionally stir up trouble. some of the globals are pushing a surface impulse up from the western caribbean towards the lower mississippi valley over the next week or so, also with no fanfare. unless one of these little buggers makes a noteworthy effort, we might slide into july with just barry having spawned in june.
HF 2210z20june


Storm Hunter
(Veteran Storm Chaser)
Wed Jun 20 2007 05:13 PM
Re: Satellite Links

This low in the southeast will need to be watched... i am a little interested in it when enters the GOM... it appears to be moving in the SW direction... Just might be something to watch over the next few days... i don't expect much of it right now... neither do the models... but looks like the only thing to watch over the next couple of days... all signs point to a strong high building out in the Atlantic... see what becomes of it. (aka... more focused on the Carb. and GOM)

**Sorry Hank...posted about the samething just right before me.. lol
Thinking the same, watching the end of this front might just be the only game we have to watch for the couple of days.


ltpat228
(Storm Tracker)
Wed Jun 20 2007 05:48 PM
Re: Satellite Links

I deleted my post as cieldumort was kind enough to PM and answer my questions.
I don't know how to delete my post completely so hopefully one of the MODs will.


Ed DunhamAdministrator
(Former Meteorologist & CFHC Forum Moderator (Ed Passed Away on May 14, 2017))
Wed Jun 20 2007 06:54 PM
Re: Satellite Links

No, it has nothing to do with that. 94L was an area of interest associated with some potential (6 days ago) that never materialized. Nothing of much interest at the moment and, as mentioned above, will probably stay that way for the remainder of the month.
ED


danielwAdministrator
(Moderator)
Thu Jun 21 2007 05:39 PM
Western Caribbean Area

After quickly checking various model outputs. The only mention of a tropical system... at any level. Was from 3 sources.
The Weather Channel, New Orleans NWS office and the Lake Charles NWS Office. The only other NWS Offices that I checked were Jackson,MS and Mobile,AL.

At this time none of the HPC Forecast discussions mention anything in the Gulf of Mexico or the Caribbean. Other than diurnal thunderstorms.

New Orleans has the best mention with the system forecast to move around the western edges of the High pressure ridge.
From present postion to just over/ near the Yucatan Peninsula, to the Texas/ Western Louisiana area... By Sunday.
http://www.srh.noaa.gov/productview.php?pil=AFDLIX&max=61

None of the current (through 12z) models are depicting any increase in intensity beyond the current MCS type system.

Stay tuned. Now back to the FL Mid-Upper Low just east of Jacksonville...


Lamar-Plant City
(Storm Tracker)
Thu Jun 21 2007 06:05 PM
Re: Western Caribbean Area

Daniel, I was just looking at that system near the Yucatan and through my amateur eyes it sure looks to be developing a nice upper level outflow around the system. On the current satellite it looks very tropical except for a lack of easily seen spin. Those upper level clouds, though, look very similar to what you would see over a nicely formed tropical storm or weak hurricane, especially on the north side....or am I crazy? I don't want to be accused of rumor-mongering, but it looks WAY more interesting than any of the models are suggesting it should look. Also pressures seem to be falling at the two buoys in that are of the Caribbean (PTDY on both is a -0.03). Last night and earlier today, I would have said it was moving mostly wnw toward Nicaragua/Honduras, but in the last several hours it looks more due northwest and it has some solid convection from the north side to the south east. IS this something we should be watching more closely? One thing I have learned from this MB is that I don't know as much as I thought I did about monitoring tropical systems.

cieldumort
(Moderator)
Thu Jun 21 2007 06:28 PM
Re: Western Caribbean Area

It should be helpful to get a good look at the next QuikSCAT pass over the Caribbean feature. Based on a few area buoy, land and ship reports in the area I glanced-over, there could be some low level turning within the broader cluster. The data is just too sparse and the feature too weak to really make any heads or tails out of it without some help from scat.

I've also noted a few reports of slightly lowering pressures, but nothing at all significant. Again, data being sparse in the area isn't helpful. But, one would sort of expect to see something a little better than a 2mb drop over the course of one full day from a nearby buoy if it were to be getting its act together.

Clearly, its only window for significant development would be if it does in fact jog and/or relocate more over the water - I have also been watching what LPC notes above, with some interest (a possible shift more to the NW than W). And, there is some upper level outflow. This is not altogether unusual, however. Not a "hallmark" of something becoming a tropical cyclone, if you will. Thunderstorm complexes can and do create their own high pressure areas aloft.

Both of these features (Caribbean disturbance & Florida frontal low) did make it into the 5:30 TWO, but without causing a stir. "Tropical cyclone formation is not expected during the next 48 hours."


dem05
(User)
Fri Jun 22 2007 12:11 AM
Re: Western Caribbean Area

I agree. I wish we couldget a good GHCC image of the Carribean feature this evening. Tonight will be critical timeframe for getting additional "development possibility" recognition in the NHC TWO. If the thunderstorms we saw in the morning/afternoon hours had continued, we'd likely be seeing that attention now. If the thunderstorms pulsed up tonight, it may look more interesting by the morning. The wave may get some more attention at that time.

With respect to that, there is evidence that another one of those famous cut-offlows in the upper levels is forming smack in the middle of the Gulf of Mexico and slowly moving SE toward the Yucatan and the NW Carribean. Will be curious to see if this remains weak, but the cut off low is really a bit too far to the east to favor development in the WesternCarribean and the GOMex in the coming days, even if things do look good down there right now. If it were not for this feature, I'd say it had a better shot of development...irregardless of the lack of model support. I've seen plenty of tropical systems develop down there after popping up like this disturbance has...and they were able to make it without the model support, but there have been just as many that did not.

As for the "FL Disturbance"...Much more in the way of thunderstorm activity tonight and almost had a low level cloud pattern that resembled the end game version of Andrea earlier today. This shear is hammering the t-storm activity and the overall organization is not improving (probably deteriorating actually). I think the door is closing on this one quickly.

With that said, I give the Carribean a better shot, but the development of the Upper Level Cutoff Low in the GOMex is gonna affect this Carribean wave before that can really occur. If the cutoff does not strengthen further, there may be some baroclinic opprtunities for some weaker-end hybrid or lopsided development if the wave moves Northwest versus westerly into Central America. Westward into Central America or Belize is definately an end game situation. In all likelyhood, if you are hoping to see some development in the tropics, you/we will probably need to ask Bob Barker if you can see "the next item up for bid".


cieldumort
(Moderator)
Fri Jun 22 2007 01:40 AM
Re: Western Caribbean Area

Well, I'm going to lead off with Florida. It's closer to home, and tonight has had a really nice going of nocturnal convection - offshore - with Melbourne NWS noting that MSAS short-range surface analysis plotting a now definitive surface low center drifting generally southward off the Velusia coast. (Forecast Discussion)

Melbourne Long-Range Radar Loop very interesting.

Satellite loops now indicate significant cloud top cooling offshore, with a sizable area colder than -50C, and a still respectable area less than -60C.

I can not see any reason why this feature should not earn an Invest number by daybreak, if this trend continues. Movement of the low appears to be generally SSE or perhaps with a more easterly component if it jumps to play catchup with the deep convection.

The Caribbean feature. Again, I now see no reason why this feature also should not earn an Invest number by daybreak if its trends of the past 24 hours or so continue for another five or six hours or so. Despite a lack of surface obs and nothing current from QuikSCAT, it is clear in the satellite loops that convection does have at least some turning motion, is really rather deep at times, and upper-level outflow is rather stellar tonight.

While it's easy to see the weak ULL which has formed right smack in the middle of the GOM, I might disagree a bit with Dem, above. I think it is currently too weak to do much harm, given their respective positions, and might suggest that it could even be helping promote this impressive outflow tonight, thereby increasing lower level convergence a bit to the north of where the convergence was occurring earlier, and perhaps dragging the entire system, repeatedly analyzed as a trof with an attendant surface low down around 11N, a notch or two further north, yet - perhaps to even recenter the surface low farther north, as well.

By morning it will become much more clear what is going on with these guys. In my honest estimation, they both probably have a somewhat better chance than what the most recent TWO suggested, and we could see that wording massaged a bit by morning, as Dem suggests above.


dem05
(User)
Fri Jun 22 2007 02:41 AM
Re: Western Caribbean Area

With respect to the low off of Volusia/Brevard County on the east coast of Florida...The IR loop of the system looks interesting and the radar shots do as well. However, the shortwave loops paint the true picture of the low pressure structure and the system is washing out. Over time, the low has been elongating east to west and the thunderstorms are peeling off to the east. This system may be nothing more than a stretched trough by the mid-day/afternoon hours tomorrow. Unless major changes happen soon, it is very unlikely that this system will strengthen into something tropical and it will likely fade with time.

Shortwave link: http://www.ssd.noaa.gov/goes/east/gmex/loop-ir2.html


allan
(Weather Master)
Fri Jun 22 2007 10:07 AM
Re: Western Caribbean Area

Well the Carribean storm looks ill but the outflow if impressing! If this thing gains convection which it looks like it is starting to, we could have a nice looking storm on our hands. Wind shear is low with 15-20 knots and water temps are extremely high. Most models do something with it but in the Pacific which I disagree very strongly. Looks like it's headed toward the central/western GOM to me. We'll have to wait and see of course.

cieldumort
(Moderator)
Fri Jun 22 2007 10:38 AM
Re: Western Caribbean Area

I guess I sure am glad to say that I qualified my assessment last night to require another five or six hours of development of either or both features before they were worthy of an Invest tag. From the looks of the loops this morning, just about no sooner had I hit enter on my posts, than did the convection of the Caribbean system start dissolve, and the convection of the Florida coast low get blown on out to sea with the high winds it finds itself in. Plus, it has a serious problem with dry, stable air pushing in from the north.

Few things of note, and perhaps anyone would like to offer a different perspective. I agree with others who have already pointed out that the western Caribbean disturbance has probably been pulled something a little north of west (rather than the much-advertised due westward movement) with significant rotation in the low to mid levels noted on the tip of Honduras/Nicaragua, with convection attempting to flare back up generally within that obvious rotation.

With regards to the low east of Florida, most analysis puts the center of the low further east of where it was, and well-east of where it would have been had it been simply drifting south. This location suggests that the convection which flared mightily overnight did in fact flare up along the eastern semicircle, tried to hang on for dear life, got blown away, but at first light today it looks like more convection keeps attempting to flare back up on the outer reaches of the llc. Unless upper level winds relax, it looks like Dem5 has called its demise about right, and these flareups will represent not much more, if nothing more, than a last gasp before this thing can be chalked up to having gone through the shredder.

Not much else out there. A new flare up north of the Antilles, perhaps. The overall environment, while seemingly a tiny bit better, perhaps - specifically, the moisture content looks a little improved here or there and water temps are up a little - is still unfavorable. The 200 hPa velocity potential anomalies are speaking volumes.


weatherguy08
(Weather Hobbyist)
Fri Jun 22 2007 11:35 AM
Re: Watching the Western Caribbean...

Well, as of the late morning TWO, it looks like the NHC has pretty much written off the system in the Caribbean. Can't blame them though as the system does not look near as impressive as it did yesterday evening. Also, no weather stations in the area are reporting any significant pressure drops. One thing of interest though is the small flare up of convection near the border of Nicaragua and Honduras. Wind shear remain high though so I don't expect much out of this system.

allan
(Weather Master)
Fri Jun 22 2007 12:16 PM
Re: Watching the Western Caribbean...

Quote:

Wind shear remain high though so I don't expect much out of this system.



Wind shear is low enough to be marginally favorable (15-20 knots). It has a good chance if it continues doing what it's doing. Just something to watch, I'm deffinatly worth an invest at the least but there appears to be no winds at the surface yet according to quickscat. So I would understand why it isn't tagged just yet.

Wind shear as of 12z - http://www.ssd.noaa.gov/PS/TROP/DATA/gparm/xyrshr.gif
Carribean storm - http://www.ssd.noaa.gov/goes/east/watl/rb-l.jpg


weatherguy08
(Weather Hobbyist)
Fri Jun 22 2007 12:29 PM
Re: Watching the Western Caribbean...

Yeah, I am also noting a very strong flare up of convection this morning near the border of Nicaragua and Honduras. I mentioned this in my last post but it looks even stronger now. I agree that it should definitely be monitored. Frankly, I don't think the NHC is doing it justice, but it will be interesting to see the afternoon TWD.

nc_tropical_wx79
(Weather Guru)
Fri Jun 22 2007 01:01 PM
Re: Watching the Western Caribbean...

everywhere (site wise) tell me the tropics are quiet and don't look for anything to form or of interest for the next week at least still a few people say the SW caribbean has formed a weak low and convection is refiring so keep an eye on it. I'm confused and yes not experienced with/in wx so what is going on as of right now 1 pm est with the blob in the caribbean? and can you tell me a good site so I can watch it on radar.

weatherguy08
(Weather Hobbyist)
Fri Jun 22 2007 01:32 PM
Re: Watching the Western Caribbean...

Basically the "blob" of deep convection or thunderstorm activity is an indication of intense thunderstorms in the area. This is detected by using the Infrared Satellite which measures the temperature of the cloud tops. As thunderstorms grow stronger, the clouds rise higher and into cooler air, thus registering cooler on infrared satellite. The blob that has formed is thunderstorm activity associated with the tropical wave and accompanying low pressure area.

A good link to satellite images is at http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/satellite.shtml. Go to Caribbean and select infrared image for a still shot and infrared loop for a time lapse of the past several hours.


scottsvb
(Weather Master)
Fri Jun 22 2007 02:06 PM
Re: Watching the Western Caribbean...

There is no tropical activity with the area of convection off Honduras. This is a mid-level diffulent flow creating a surge in the convection. The pressures are not falling and no model shows anything coming down to the surface. Chance is less then 5%.

Ed DunhamAdministrator
(Former Meteorologist & CFHC Forum Moderator (Ed Passed Away on May 14, 2017))
Fri Jun 22 2007 04:15 PM
Re: Watching the Western Caribbean...

I beg to differ - so does NHC. From the TWO this morning: "CLOUDINESS AND SHOWERS OVER THE WESTERN CARIBBEAN SEA AND PORTIONS
OF CENTRAL AMERICA ARE ASSOCIATED WITH A WESTWARD-MOVING TROPICAL
WAVE"

As noted on my Main Page update yesterday morning - at that time the system even had a hint of a mid-level circulation - that is no longer discernable. Your probability of development was about right, but not the analysis - the system is, and has been, tropical in nature but its not likely to do anything.

With the ongoing satellite imagery problems at NASA MSFC, I have placed a close-up of the wave on the Main Page update. Just click on 'Honduras'.
Cheers,
ED


scottsvb
(Weather Master)
Fri Jun 22 2007 11:35 PM
Re: Watching the Western Caribbean...

Nice point on that.. I probably should of said No tropical development instead of activity.
I agree and see they also talk about the difflent pattern aloft like i mentioned.


A TROPICAL WAVE ALONG 85W S OF 20N MOVING W 10 KT. SATELLITE
IMAGERY SHOWS WEAK LOW LEVEL CYCLONIC TURNING N OF 16N. THE WAVE
IS PRODUCING SHOWERS AND A FEW THUNDERSTORMS OVER THE NW
CARIBBEAN AND PARTS OF CENTRAL AMERICA...MAINLY OVER NICARAGUA.
SIGNIFICANT DEVELOPMENT OF THIS SYSTEM IS NOT ANTICIPATED. A
DIFFLUENT PATTERN ALOFT IS HELPING TO ENHANCE THIS CONVECTIVE
ACTIVITY. ACCORDING TO THE GFS MODEL...MOISTURE FROM THIS WAVE
SHOULD AFFECT BELIZE AND THE YUCATAN PENINSULA SAT AND THE BAY
OF CAMPECHE SUN.



CARIBBEAN SEA...
BROAD UPPER RIDGE DOMINATES THE BASIN ANCHORED ON A HIGH LOCATED
SOUTH OF JAMAICA NEAR 15N77W. WATER VAPOR IMAGERY SHOWS ABUNDANT
MOISTURE STREAMING NORTH FROM CENTRAL AMERICA ACROSS THE WESTERN
CARIBBEAN INTO CUBA AND THE FLORIDA KEYS. DIFFLUENCE ASSOCIATED
WITH THE RIDGE IS ENHANCING THE CONVECTIVE ACTIVITY NEAR THE
TROPICAL WAVE ALONG 85W. 20 TO 25 KT TRADE WINDS ARE BLOWING
OVER A LARGE PORTION OF THE BASIN W OF 70W. WINDS HAVE DECREASED
FROM AROUND 30 KT NEAR THE COLOMBIA COAST YESTERDAY. THESE
MODERATE WINDS ARE EXPECTED TO PERSIST AND WILL INCREASE AGAIN
SUN THROUGH TUE AS THE ATLC RIDGE NORTH OF THE AREA STRENGTHENS.
SHOWERS AND A FEW TSTMS ARE CONCENTRATED ALONG AND NEAR THE
COAST OF HONDURAS AND NICARAGUA IN ASSOCIATION WITH THE TROPICAL
WAVE. TRADE WIND SHOWERS...CHARACTERIZED BY THEIR SHORT DURATION
AND LIGHT INTENSITY ARE SEEN OVER THE E-CENTRAL CARIBBEAN.


danielwAdministrator
(Moderator)
Sat Jun 23 2007 09:10 AM
Saturday morning

With the GHCC server being down at Marshall Spaceflight Center. I've learned that is nearly impossible to find satellite images that are less than an hour old. Which by some standards is fast!

While checking the Tropics this morning I noticed the latest QuickScatter pass over the Eastern Gulf of Mexico contained a low level circulation of about 25 knots. This is located due west of Tampa and south of the Appalachicola/ Big Bend area.

Quickscatter (time sensitive)

Visible Image at 1215Z ( 9AM EDT)

Other areas:
Trough in Western Caribbean has reinitiated convection near the Belize Coast.

Mesoscale system off of the Corpus Christi,TX area. Appears to be connected to a mid level Low. Based on the New Orleans Vertical wind directions... SE at the 4000 ft level, and westerly at the surface.

Convection beginning to appear near the Low circulation north of the Bahamas.

Medium sized tropical wave has just entered the Eastern Atlantic Ocean off of Africa at 1200Z. The EUMETSAT IR imagery gives a better look at the size. However the system is between two sat sectors and is a bit hard to define the total satellite signature.

EUMETSAT

Yes, I was slightly bored~danielw


crpeavley
(Weather Watcher)
Tue Jun 26 2007 08:47 AM
Incoming Tropical Moisture

Two inverted troughs are showing up nicely on satellite this morning, following on the heels of upper low moving west, and there has been lots of talk in the forecast discussions of yet more needed rain on the way. Didn't know if others were also watching, but let's hope for another good soaker, as long as the weekend clears out, right?

Storm Hunter
(Veteran Storm Chaser)
Tue Jun 26 2007 11:44 PM
SAL Dust in Carb.

Man, it may just be my eyes...but in the last few days there is alot of DUST that crossed the atl that is now in the Carribean... Basically half the carb. to just east of the islands. I just looked at some Navy data... Lost my links to alot of my other data. Keeps the storms out of the Eastern Carb. for right now!

Side note:
This was posted by Nasa just over a month ago. I actually just read some of the papers for the study on the TRMM Sat and other data. Think some of you guys might be interested in it. NASA Hurricane 5-14-07

PS: Watch the first movie animation... I love to see my tax dollars at work!!!


Storm Hunter
(Veteran Storm Chaser)
Wed Jun 27 2007 05:27 PM
Re: SAL Dust in Carb.

Notice the last day or so, CMC is throwing up a low along the east coast of Florida then out to sea. Latest NHC Outlook this evening talks about the tropical wave from Cuba up to Florida. This might be something to watch over next 24hrs to 48hrs. Upper level winds are a little strong right now. Alot of moisture on the way to south Florida!!! NAM and GFS throw up a weak low out of this tropical wave too... Will just have to wait and see what happens.


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