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News Talkback >> 2005 News Talkbacks

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Ryan
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Re: Irene Remains Weak Possible Threat to Carolinas Increasing [Re: La Nimo]
      #47435 - Thu Aug 11 2005 01:18 AM

Quote:

Latest plots on Irene she maybe saying hello to NY,NY or NJ....
PLOTS Latest Model runs




should i be worried, or not?..becuase that link shows a couple model runs pointing my way.

if you were on hatteras maybe.. but being up in long island you should know better. an amplified ridge off the east coast is needed to get a strong storm up to long island without it recurving sharply.. and the ridge is progged to be solid but fairly flat. in other words to get you it would have to travel over land and weaken a whole lot. i wouldn't worry about a significant storm up there unless the models start showing something very different than what they're showing. -HF

Edited by HanKFranK (Thu Aug 11 2005 02:12 AM)


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Wxwatcher2
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Re: Irene Remains Weak Possible Threat to Carolinas Increasing [Re: Ryan]
      #47436 - Thu Aug 11 2005 01:23 AM

Ryan, I wouldn't use the word worried. But with any storm that is out in the Atlantic and heading toward the U.S coast, of course be watchful.
Never hurts to have some supplies on hand just in case.


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pedro
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Re: Irene Remains Weak Possible Threat to Carolinas Increasing [Re: MikeC]
      #47439 - Thu Aug 11 2005 01:35 AM

I dont agree that much to what the models are saying but i do think the models will shift more west through out the time.With an area of High Pressure on top i dont think it going to go that north my thinking is from the east coast of florida to the carolina should all monitor this system very closely anything could happen with a small storm like this.

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Anton Ross
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Carolina in the Morning [Re: pedro]
      #47441 - Thu Aug 11 2005 01:56 AM

Like Old Sailor, I have been dealing with, and watching ATL storms (from both sides of the ATL) for about 25 years. Ex-U.S.N. (A/C, Russian CTI), sailboat-style sailor...and I like to mix together how my gut feels with what the models tells me.

With Irene...the models tell us they "don't know."

That being said, I have a feeling this one will land on Hatteras. But being that I live one mile from the coast in Charleston, though... I am keeping both eyes on this little lady.

I rarely post...but thought I would now.
Anton
/Charleston

--------------------
"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary.
-Albert Einstein


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Old Sailor
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The Cone [Re: Anton Ross]
      #47442 - Thu Aug 11 2005 02:15 AM

I have notice many on here keep their eyes on that thin line, maybe because they want to pin a land fall.. We should not forget the Golden Rule as the NHC keeps saying don't follow that line, if you are in the CONE then you should be ready for that Strom.. How fast we forget Charlie last yr...
Dave


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pedro
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Re: Irene Remains Weak Possible Threat to Carolinas Increasing [Re: MikeC]
      #47443 - Thu Aug 11 2005 02:24 AM

Do you guys think that are of high pressure is going to hold strong

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CarolinaGurl
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Re: The Cone [Re: Old Sailor]
      #47444 - Thu Aug 11 2005 02:25 AM

From someone who is in the cone and in direct target of that thin line I am paying close attention to this storm, everyone at my office is already talking about it. By the way, I hate when the forecasters point right at Wilmington when they say the "Carolinas". Get a storm anywhere near us and it goes right up the Cape Fear River instead of curving on around and out of here. Keep up the good work, I always go here to see what everyone is saying.

--------------------
My Storms - Hugo, Bertha, Bonnie, Fran, Dennis, Floyd, Ophelia, Ernesto, Irene. Arthur


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J.C.
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Re: The Cone [Re: Old Sailor]
      #47445 - Thu Aug 11 2005 02:29 AM

Read earlier that this storm could possibly reach cat 3 status. Living hear in eastern N.C. I have seen many storms intensify along the gulf stream just before landfall or recurving away from shore. I also read the other day that SST in the area was above 85f. How much of a factor would this play if the storm decided to hit anywhere south of Cape Hatteras to JAX Fla. ? JC

you and carolinagurl probably have the most legitimate threat from this thing. the SSTs will support a large hurricane... irene has to work out of the dry atmosphere and stop being the victim of shear... the developing outflow with the storm suggests this is happening, albeit slowly. irene should be significantly stronger in the coming days. -HF

Edited by HanKFranK (Thu Aug 11 2005 04:01 AM)


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damejune2
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Re: The Cone [Re: J.C.]
      #47446 - Thu Aug 11 2005 02:34 AM

I live 50 miles south of Tampa. I am wondering if the storm will affect us here; affect as in within 75 miles of the center.

The models? I don't understand them, but i do know this - they have been all over the place. Now i see the BAM models going back to the wnw....and one of the other models, (gfdl?) is more to the left or west.

the storm is very unlikely to affect you, damian. read the NHC discussion, look at the cone, consider climatology, read other posts here... you should already know this. -HF

Edited by HanKFranK (Thu Aug 11 2005 03:57 AM)


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Random Chaos
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Re: The Cone [Re: J.C.]
      #47447 - Thu Aug 11 2005 02:34 AM

Yeah, there are quite warm SSTs out in the Atlantic right now.

http://www.ssd.noaa.gov/PS/TROP/DATA/RT/SST/PAC/20.jpg

Just a quick conversion for those not too familiar with C:
25C = 77F
30C = 86F

It looks to me that by that graphic that the storm has entirely low-mid 80's in its path, with a burst of warm 85-86F temps just off shore.

(ps mods: why can't I used ° for degree or other &stuff; codes to get symbols on this forum? The problem is quite symple. HTMLENTITIES command in your PHP is converting & to & automatically, so what you need is some way to override it. )


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Random Chaos
Weather Analyst


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Re: The Cone [Re: damejune2]
      #47448 - Thu Aug 11 2005 02:37 AM

Quote:

I live 50 miles south of Tampa. I am wondering if the storm will affect us here; affect as in within 75 miles of the center.

The models? I don't understand them, but i do know this - they have been all over the place. Now i see the BAM models going back to the wnw....and one of the other models, (gfdl?) is more to the left or west.




Never rule yourself out if you're within several hundred miles of the cone. However, you're across FL from the closest it could make landfall. At worst you'd probably get a remnant Tropical Storm. And better (for you...not me) is that the storm seems to be tracking north of you on the models. But the models have been very inconsistant on this storm. I don't trust them much beyond a general direction.

Note: Don't quote me on this!

As for the models themselves: Basically they are tracking the long term "best guess" of the center of circulation and/or low pressure. They are very complex statistical models that take into account all kinds of variables for developing a guess at long range conditions. Rarely are they super-accurate, and with tropical systems, even decent accuracy is sometimes lacking. Generally a median of all the models is a good guess for storm tracks, then thrown on a random 15-20 degree cone around it.

If you really want to try and understand the models better, don't look at the spagetti plots but instead look at the model outputs:
PSU: http://met.psu.edu/tropical/tcgengifs/ (has GFS, GFDL, NOGAPS, CMC, and WRF)
FSU: http://moe.met.fsu.edu/tcgengifs/ (has GFS, GFDL, NOGAPS, CMC, UKMET, and MM5FSU)

Generally I tend to look at 700 or 850mb Vorticity, or Sea Level Pressure.

I've never seen anyone mention CMC or WRF around here, so I don't know whether they are trustworthy as far as tropical systems are concerned.

Edited by Random Chaos (Thu Aug 11 2005 02:43 AM)


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LI Phil
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Irene Now A TS [Re: Random Chaos]
      #47449 - Thu Aug 11 2005 02:37 AM

As was expected/predicted by a few on this site, Irene is back to TS status as of the 11:00 update...

--------------------
2005 Forecast: 14/7/4

BUCKLE UP!

"If your topic ain't tropic, your post will be toast"


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scottsvb
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Re: Irene Now A TS [Re: LI Phil]
      #47450 - Thu Aug 11 2005 02:42 AM

Irene could affect anyone from Miami to CapeCod or no one. Right now its a wait and see. Florida might be off the hook if she makes it to 28N and isnt going W again by then.

concur on that. -HF

Edited by HanKFranK (Thu Aug 11 2005 03:58 AM)


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Anton Ross
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Re: The Cone [Re: Old Sailor]
      #47451 - Thu Aug 11 2005 02:49 AM

Nah...not looking at the thin line, per se...mostly going on gut, and models.

Mostly gut, though.

I did peg Hermine and Gaston last year days ahead of NHC, though. I was probably just lucky...but my left knee (the one the navy replaced) was telling me a storm was coming.

This time around...my knee feels fine.



Cheers,
Anton
/Charleston

Edited by Ed Dunham (Thu Aug 11 2005 03:56 AM)


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ftlaudbob
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Re: Irene Now A TS [Re: scottsvb]
      #47452 - Thu Aug 11 2005 02:52 AM

Quote:

Irene could affect anyone from Miami to CapeCod or no one. Right now its a wait and see. Florida might be off the hook if she makes it to 28N and isnt going W again by then.


I am going to agree with you on that.I can see this thing going anywhere from south Florida to southern New England(Rhode Island).This is going to be very interesting to watch.She really is looking very good right now,the best I have seen so far.I think the odds are Rhode Island has a better chance than south Florida.

--------------------

Survived: 10 hurricanes in Rhode Island,Florida and the Yucatan of Mexico .


Edited by ftlaudbob (Thu Aug 11 2005 03:05 AM)


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Old Sailor
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Re: The Cone [Re: J.C.]
      #47453 - Thu Aug 11 2005 02:54 AM

Not Sure where you heard the Cat 3 from, if from on here there are a few people where every storm will be a Cat 3.. At this time the models are showing 70Kt 5 days out that is 81MPH or a Cat 1. No one can be sure of Irene's track , like I said earlier if you are in the Cone then you need to keep your guard up..

Dave


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MikeCAdministrator
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Re: The Cone [Re: Old Sailor]
      #47454 - Thu Aug 11 2005 03:03 AM

11PM is good news for us further south, and gives hope to the out to sea scenario. Which I still think is the most likely outcome, although it will be close to the Carolinas. Too close for comfort. Anywhere in the cone should be watching this. Florida much less so, now that I'm seeing more trends back right. If Irene recovers more tomorrow, then the northerly option becomes more likely than not. I updated the main post with more as to why.



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Ryan
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Re: Irene Now A TS [Re: ftlaudbob]
      #47455 - Thu Aug 11 2005 03:22 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Irene could affect anyone from Miami to CapeCod or no one. Right now its a wait and see. Florida might be off the hook if she makes it to 28N and isnt going W again by then.


I am going to agree with you on that.I can see this thing going anywhere from south Florida to southern New England(Rhode Island).This is going to be very interesting to watch.She really is looking very good right now,the best I have seen so far.I think the odds are Rhode Island has a better chance than south Florida.




i think that rhode island/southern NE is not at risk i think the carolinas are at risk, what do the others think

-Ryan

--------------------
2006 Atlantic Season Summary:
Bad, But Not AS Bad.

Life's a Storm, Watch Your Back


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Clark
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Long post...bear with me! [Re: Anton Ross]
      #47456 - Thu Aug 11 2005 03:28 AM

Hi Anton, thanks for adding your comments. Please feel free to add/post more now and in the future if you like!

damejune, being 50 miles south of Tampa, you are probably out of the woods on this one. Keep an eye to it, but it's unlikely as of now that you'll see anything beyond perhaps a slight change in wind direction around to the NW as the storm passes to the northeast.

Irene...back to a TS, as Phil mentioned. While the QuikSCAT pass this evening was inconclusive as to whether or not there was a low-level center, it was on the edge of the pass and, as we've seen, the technology isn't always right. It does a good job, particularly with wind speeds, but with small systems and circulations, it does have trouble from time to time. Nevertheless, visible imagery was absolutely conclusive -- there was and is a low-level center with the storm, with good banding features to the south of the center of circulation. Microwave imagery (SSM/I pass this evening) confirmed these banding features, both at the low and mid levels, suggesting a system with the building blocks firmly in place. The deepest convection is building closer to where the center is located on the NW side of the overall cloud pattern, shear values are down to around 10kt, and waters are progressively warmer to the west.

This storm should intensify, albeit at a modest rate given the dry air in the environment...though I refer you all back to the 11a discussion about the impacts of the dry air keeping Irene as a smaller storm. While it seems counterintuitive, I've heard that idea thrown about from another scientist in the past; we'll see how well it holds up. Nevertheless, keeping the energy bundled in one area would serve to help provide a focus for intensification. Given all of that and the trends we are seeing with the storm, I feel the need to bump up my intensity forecast from earlier this afternoon. Modest intensification is likely early, with the storm likely to peak near cat 2 intensity before landfall. It has an outside shot at major hurricane status, but I'm not willing to go there right now.

Track forecast is more complicated, I feel. There is a building ridge near and over the system that is projected to build west with time. How far west will it build? It is a pretty strong ridge right now -- 595dm at 12Z at 500mb in Bermuda, 593dm heights over Florida at 00Z -- but will that hold? The upper-low that we've been tracking for a week now has begun to open up to the west of Irene, but with nothing to really kick it out, what is left of it is likely to slowly spin down over the western Atlantic. There is another upper-low over the Gulf of Mexico that is slowly moving NE; here too, however, there is little to move it out of the picture. South of Wilmington, the flow is largely to the west in the mid- to upper-levels -- but we're more interested in 4 days from now as opposed to right now. But, the flow pattern is largely zonal (west-east) across the eastern US. Impulses continue to move across the northern tier of states, but are having a hard time getting further south than southern Virginia and Kentucky. There's nothing in the immediate future to suggest that this will change in the next 3 days.

The culprit behind all of this is the happenings in the eastern Pacific. A vast upper-low is located between 40-50N along 150W south of Alaska with a ridge of high pressure to its north. This is a classic blocking scenario -- a Rex block, high-over-low, as we call it -- and there isn't a whole lot to change this, either. It would take a change in this to substantially change the pattern across the eastern US at this point, failing to see anything more immediate to the region that could effect a change, and I don't see that happening. An impulse is butting up against this block at 50N/170W, but it is showing signs of slowing down and I believe it will weaken and ultimately undergo trough fracture, heading to the north around the blocking ridge (with some of the energy potentially feeding the larger upper-low). Further southwest, an upper-low SW of California is helping to keep the pattern stagnant across the western US right now as well. Simply put, there's not going to be a lot of major changes over the next few days.

That said, given the building ridge in the Atlantic, there is likely to be a weakness along the coast -- give or take some distance, which could be key in determining the ultimate path of the storm -- as Irene approaches. But, whether or not there will be an impulse/shortwave trough to slide into this weakness and capture the storm is another story entirely, and I'm not convinced there will be one at this point in time. This leads me to believe that the storm will slow down as it approaches the coast. What Irene does from there depends upon how strong it is and the exact placement of the ridge and weakness between it and another ridge forecast to the west and southwest.

From my experience, when we see a pattern similar to this one evolve, a weaker system tends to move slowly towards the west and northwest, while a stronger storm tends to drift more towards the northwest and later gets caught by something down the line. This is partially due to the natural beta drift enhancement for a larger/stronger storm and partially due to a stronger storm feeling more impact from the upper-level steering pattern. For a storm of Irene's projected intensity, a west-northwest path at a slow rate of speed is likely. My current thinking is to the left of the NHC track and left of most of the global model guidance for the reasons noted above. This brings landfall to around 6 days from now between St. Simons Island, GA and Wilmington, NC. However, the entire coastline from S. Florida to the Mid-Atlantic needs to watch this storm. While landfall may occur in the southeast, as the storm moves further inland, it will ultimately get caught up in the midlatitude pattern and directed towards the north and east -- i.e. the Northeast US -- in the next 7-10 days. As always, this thinking is subject to change, but represents my best thinking at this point in time.

We're in a pattern where the model guidance has been too far to the right for quite some time with this storm, and given the strength of the ridge out there now, it is tempting to jump to the conclusion that a similar pattern to last year's storms may unfold with this one. I don't have the full suite of data to make that claim, however, but note that like all model trends, it must be watched and accounted for in analysis and forecasting.

For everyone's benefit as this moves down the post line, I'm gonna throw this onto the blogs. And, as always...it is just guidance!

Brief future note -- some models are still picking up on a possible development in 3-4 days in the east-central Atlantic, though all of them show just a very weak feature. Worth watching for, but not too worried about this one yet. Of more interest is a massive surge projected to exit the coast of Africa in 5-6 days, picked up by most of the major models. It is projected to come off at a pretty high latitude, but given its vast expanse could help spin up something along the ITCZ. At the very least, it is likely to be the precursor wave that starts things going in the eastern Atlantic, right about the time as conditions (synoptically & climatologically) get going. Like HF said, the flurry of activity is just about to hit us.

Brief E. Pacific note -- Fernanda has peaked in intensity for now, but I'd be willing to bank that it peaks over hurricane intensity in the next day or so. These E. Pacific storms, just from following them over the past 10 years, seem to be a lot tougher to nail intensity-wise than one might think. Commonly, you'll see a lot of storms in a "pristine" environment (which I'll define as just one storm heading away from Mexico with sufficient SSTs, low wind shear, and sufficient moisture) strengthen much more than the initial forecasts, often to minimal hurricane intensity, but then not get as strong as the later forecasts would suggest. It's not a data problem, as we have good SST data across the oceans, but it just seems like the intensities are tougher than one might think. The system behind Fernanda -- invest 98E -- has a good shot at developing, but its intensity will likely be kept in check due to its proximity to a rather large sized Fernanda ahead of it. Nevertheless, slow development is likely there over the next 2-3 days before it meets colder waters as well.

Completely unrelated hurricane note: read a story today (http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2005-08/gsoa-ahi081005.php) about how studying trees in the SE US can help identify storms that made landfall across the region. Pretty interesting stuff -- their ultimate goal may be a bit out of reach, as it is very tough to correlate overall seasonal activity to storms that make landfall, but it should at least help our climatologies -- and if anyone is interested, check it out at the link above.

--------------------
Current Tropical Model Output Plots
(or view them on the main page for any active Atlantic storms!)


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ralphfl
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Re: Irene Now A TS [Re: ftlaudbob]
      #47457 - Thu Aug 11 2005 03:36 AM

I think this storm is going to be weak like the NHC says Cat 1 would be my guess and i tend to go with the turn to the north more then the NHC shows right now but that is IMO.


==================================

Red Sox's America's team? Call me when they win 23 let alone 1 in 90 years


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