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General Discussion >> Hurricane Ask/Tell

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Terra
Storm Tracker


Reged: Tue
Posts: 286
Loc: Kingwood, Texas
Nicole
      #33850 - Sun Oct 10 2004 08:08 AM

I know what both a subtropical storm and an extratropical storm are, but I have never seen the NHC provide updates about either of these classifications before.... Why Nicole?

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Terra Dassau Cahill


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Keith234
Storm Chaser


Reged: Thu
Posts: 921
Loc: 40.7N/73.3W Long Island
Re: Nicole [Re: Terra]
      #33857 - Sun Oct 10 2004 09:57 AM

That's because Nicole is effecting people and is a threat to their life. If this was just out at sea, there wouldn't be nearly as much fuss about it, but there still would warnings because of shipping interests etc. Besides, the NHC covers the entire Atlantic and the Pacific basin so they can warn people about these tropical entities; it's there job not a hobby.

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"I became insane with horrible periods of sanity"
Edgar Allan Poe


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Ed DunhamAdministrator
Former Meteorologist & CFHC Forum Moderator (Ed Passed Away on May 14, 2017)


Reged: Sun
Posts: 2565
Loc: Melbourne, FL
Re: Nicole [Re: Terra]
      #33858 - Sun Oct 10 2004 10:13 AM

The NHC regularly issues updates whenever a subtropical cyclone is detected. Often a subtropical system can acquire tropical characteristics over time.

From the NHC/TPC Glossary of Terms:
Subtropical Cyclone:
A non-frontal low pressure system that has characteristics of both tropical and extratropical cyclones.

The most common type is an upper-level cold low with circulation extending to the surface layer and maximum sustained winds generally occurring at a radius of about 100 miles or more from the center. In comparison to tropical cyclones, such systems have a relatively broad zone of maximum winds that is located farther from the center, and typically have a less symmetric wind field and distribution of convection.

A second type of subtropical cyclone is a mesoscale low originating in or near a frontolyzing zone of horizontal wind shear, with radius of maximum sustained winds generally less than 30 miles. The entire circulation may initially have a diameter of less than 100 miles. These generally short-lived systems may be either cold core or warm core.


Subtropical Depression:
A subtropical cyclone in which the maximum sustained surface wind speed (using the U.S. 1-minute average) is 33 kt (38 mph or 62 km/hr) or less.


Subtropical Storm:
A subtropical cyclone in which the maximum sustained surface wind speed (using the U.S. 1-minute average) is 34 kt (39 mph or 63 km/hr) or more.

Hope this helps.
ED


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Ed DunhamAdministrator
Former Meteorologist & CFHC Forum Moderator (Ed Passed Away on May 14, 2017)


Reged: Sun
Posts: 2565
Loc: Melbourne, FL
Re: Nicole [Re: Ed Dunham]
      #33863 - Sun Oct 10 2004 11:18 AM

Since we now have STS Nicole, this may provoke a response or two: For those that enjoy a little research, has there ever been (or could there ever be) a STH ?
Cheers,
ED


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Storm Cooper
User


Reged: Sat
Posts: 1290
Loc: Panama City , FL
Re: Nicole [Re: Ed Dunham]
      #33864 - Sun Oct 10 2004 11:38 AM

Good question. I may be wrong but if I remember right this situation came up a few years back. I'll give a look or two.

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Hurricane Season 2017 13/7/1


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HumanCookie
Verified CFHC User


Reged: Fri
Posts: 17
Re: Nicole [Re: Ed Dunham]
      #33865 - Sun Oct 10 2004 11:53 AM

Yes, 1991 Hurricane Grace. They called her the "Perfect Storm"

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Keith234
Storm Chaser


Reged: Thu
Posts: 921
Loc: 40.7N/73.3W Long Island
Re: Nicole [Re: Ed Dunham]
      #33866 - Sun Oct 10 2004 11:54 AM

Actually yes ED, there is detailed classification for sub-tropical storms. Go to http://www.typhoon2000.ph/archives.htm#gp
Gary does very detailed study on the subtropical storm in May, he asked the best tropical meteorologists what they would do with a sub-tropical storm, it's pretty interesting.
" A quiet month of May followed the first April Atlantic tropical
cyclone on record. Since 1886 twelve tropical storms have formed
during May, with additional tropical depressions and subtropical storms
tracked. The last tropical storm to form in May was Tropical Storm
Arlene in 1981, which formed in the western Caribbean during the first
week of May. Following a May tropical storm in 1887 and a hurricane in
1889, no more May storms were detected until 1932. However, since 1932
the longest gap between May tropical storms has been eleven years (1959
to 1970 and 1970 to 1981). So the Atlantic basin is overdue for a May
tropical storm.

There was an interesting system off the southeast U. S. coast during
the first week of the month which initially seemed to have delusions of
developing into a subtropical storm. A meso-scale convective system
from the Gulf of Mexico had moved to a position off the North Carolina
coast by 2 May where it exhibited some rotation and had generated some
convection near the center. (This information from David Roth.)
According to Bob Hart, the Cyclone Phase Space had initially indicated
possible hybrid or even weak warm-core development, but later runs of
the program had backed off a bit and trended toward neutral or cold-
core evolution. And Chris Fogarty pointed out that with the upper-level
trough open to the northwest of the LOW, it would have been very
difficult for a warm-core cyclone to form."

Also I dug this classification out:
"Subject: A6) What is a sub-tropical cyclone?
A sub-tropical cyclone is a low-pressure system existing in the tropical or subtropical latitudes (anywhere from the equator to about 50°N) that has characteristics of both tropical cyclones and mid-latitude (or extratropical) cyclones. Therefore, many of these cyclones exist in a weak to moderate horizontal temperature gradient region (like mid-latitude cyclones), but also receive much of their energy from convective clouds (like tropical cyclones). Often, these storms have a radius of maximum winds which is farther out (on the order of 100-200 km [60-125 miles] from the center) than what is observed for purely "tropical" systems. Additionally, the maximum sustained winds for sub-tropical cyclones have not been observed to be stronger than about 33 m/s (64 kts, 74 mph)).

Many times these subtropical storms transform into true tropical cyclones. A recent example is the Atlantic basin's Hurricane Florence in November 1994 which began as a subtropical cyclone before becoming fully tropical. Note there has been at least one occurrence of tropical cyclones transforming into a subtropical storm (e.g. Atlantic basin storm 8 in 1973).

Subtropical cyclones in the Atlantic basin are classified by the maximum sustained surface winds:

less than 18 m/s (34 kts, 39 mph) - "subtropical depression",
greater than or equal to 18 m/s (34 kts, 39 mph) - "subtropical storm"
Prior to 2002 subtropical storms were not given names, but the National Hurricane Center issued forecasts and warnings similar to those for tropical cyclones. Now they are given names from the tropical cyclone list."
It's from the Hurricane research division page FAQ.
Hope that helps

--------------------
"I became insane with horrible periods of sanity"
Edgar Allan Poe


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Ed DunhamAdministrator
Former Meteorologist & CFHC Forum Moderator (Ed Passed Away on May 14, 2017)


Reged: Sun
Posts: 2565
Loc: Melbourne, FL
Re: Nicole [Re: Keith234]
      #33897 - Mon Oct 11 2004 07:56 AM

I think that you may have missed the intent of the question. Of course there have been Subtropical Storms that have transformed into Tropical Storms or Hurricanes...but:
1. Has there ever been a Subtropical Hurricane?
2. Is it even possible to have one?

The answer is not just the research - my real intent is to make you think about the meteorology.
Cheers,
ED


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Keith234
Storm Chaser


Reged: Thu
Posts: 921
Loc: 40.7N/73.3W Long Island
Re: Nicole [Re: Ed Dunham]
      #33902 - Mon Oct 11 2004 01:35 PM

Well, I'm sure there could have been one but probably not on any records, on account of that they didn't start naming them to 2002... it'd be pretty hard to find. As I said before, I'm sure there could be a sub-tropical hurricane if the conditions are right (support in all the levels of the atmosphere) and sufficently strong jet stream, what type of cyclone was in the movie Day After Tommorrow, serious question?

--------------------
"I became insane with horrible periods of sanity"
Edgar Allan Poe


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LI Phil
User


Reged: Fri
Posts: 2637
Loc: Long Island (40.7N 73.6W)
Re: Nicole [Re: Keith234]
      #33918 - Tue Oct 12 2004 05:50 PM

>>> what type of cyclone was in the movie Day After Tommorrow, serious question?

Can't give you a serious answer...the cyclone (actually, I think there were supposed to be three in total) each the size of an entire continent and over land, could never exist on this planet, no matter HOW MUCH global warming (which I dispute) supposedly exists...

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2005 Forecast: 14/7/4

BUCKLE UP!

"If your topic ain't tropic, your post will be toast"


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Keith234
Storm Chaser


Reged: Thu
Posts: 921
Loc: 40.7N/73.3W Long Island
Re: Nicole [Re: LI Phil]
      #33919 - Tue Oct 12 2004 06:14 PM

Thanks for the anwser, you known every time I think of your name I think of the groundhog. Isn't that funny, no harm meant.

--------------------
"I became insane with horrible periods of sanity"
Edgar Allan Poe


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LI Phil
User


Reged: Fri
Posts: 2637
Loc: Long Island (40.7N 73.6W)
Re: Nicole [Re: Keith234]
      #33921 - Tue Oct 12 2004 09:20 PM

You mean Punxatawney (sp?) Phil? Hey, I resemble that remark

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2005 Forecast: 14/7/4

BUCKLE UP!

"If your topic ain't tropic, your post will be toast"


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Keith(234)
Unregistered




Re: Nicole [Re: LI Phil]
      #34123 - Tue Oct 26 2004 07:31 PM

No the groundhog that comes out to see it's shadow on groundhog's day! Here on Long Island.

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