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News Talkback >> 2005 News Talkbacks

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GuppieGrouper
Weather Master


Reged: Fri
Posts: 596
Loc: Polk County, Florida
Re: 91L [Re: hurricane_run]
      #35398 - Sat May 14 2005 03:28 PM

A group of weather watchers at my office wondered what would happen if the first hurricane of the year struck Florida before our Hurricane Tax free week came. I thought we were joking at the time, but this is starting to look a little interesting on this Saturday afternoon. Memorial Day would definitely be memorable. I can not tell in all my wisdom where the darn thing is moving if it is moving. But, it is nice to feel safe watching this little glob of rain showers right now.

--------------------
God commands. Laymen guess. Scientists record.


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Heather
Weather Hobbyist


Reged: Tue
Posts: 91
Loc: Sebring, FL
Re: 91L [Re: GuppieGrouper]
      #35399 - Sat May 14 2005 03:36 PM

I've heard about the tax free thing in passing. When is it and what actually is tax free?

I need to make my list and start stocking up, I guess. I am still paranoid of the lack of gasoline last season. I hate that trapped feeling.

--------------------
When it rains, it pours...


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rmbjoe1954
Weather Master


Reged: Tue
Posts: 427
Loc: Port Saint Lucie, Florida, USA
Re: 91L [Re: Heather]
      #35400 - Sat May 14 2005 03:57 PM

My understanding is that Florida will waive the state sales tax on the purchase of hurricane preparedness items the first week of June(??)

--------------------
________2024 Forecast: 28/14/8________

There is little chance that meteorologists can solve the mysteries of weather until they gain an understanding of the mutual attraction of rain and weekends. ~Arnot Sheppard


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Storm Cooper
User


Reged: Sat
Posts: 1290
Loc: Panama City , FL
Re: 91L [Re: rmbjoe1954]
      #35401 - Sat May 14 2005 04:06 PM

June 1 until the 12th I think (that would be a long time so maybe not). Batteries, flashlights, generators also I have been told....but not PLYWOOD

--------------------
Hurricane Season 2017 13/7/1

Edited by Storm Cooper (Sat May 14 2005 04:07 PM)


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Storm Cooper
User


Reged: Sat
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Re: 91L [Re: Storm Cooper]
      #35402 - Sat May 14 2005 05:00 PM

Also just a note.... The GFS is hinting at a little rumble in a few days and the 12Z runs of NOGAPS and UKM really try to spin something in about a week. I doubt it but.... and no land involved thus far, just fish!

--------------------
Hurricane Season 2017 13/7/1


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wxman007
Meteorologist


Reged: Sat
Posts: 617
Loc: Tuscaloosa, AL
Re: Wrong Forum But I Don't Care... [Re: Jamiewx]
      #35403 - Sat May 14 2005 05:04 PM

Let me say this; there are SERIOUS misconceptions about this bill and what it's effects will or will not be. Most everything I have seen on here and in other locations is not what the bill is intended to do, or what the CWSU is thinking. The reason that the bill has even been presented is due to the arrogance of the leadership of NOAA dissolving a long standing agreement between themselves and the Commericial Weather industry, and REFUSING to come back to the table and hammer out a new agreement.


Want free, unfettered weather data? Better hope the Santorum Bill passes, cause you aren't likely to get some of it if it doesn't.

Sorry for the OT post...but this issue really gets me going cause the commerical vendors are getting hammered for this, when it is YOUR Governments fault this bill is proposed at all.

--------------------
Jason Kelley


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LI Phil
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Re: Wrong Forum But I Don't Care... [Re: wxman007]
      #35404 - Sat May 14 2005 05:13 PM

but how do you really feel jason?

--------------------
2005 Forecast: 14/7/4

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wxman007
Meteorologist


Reged: Sat
Posts: 617
Loc: Tuscaloosa, AL
Re: Wrong Forum But I Don't Care... [Re: LI Phil]
      #35405 - Sat May 14 2005 05:20 PM

Quote:

but how do you really feel jason?




Where IS my blood pressure medicine? (LOL)

--------------------
Jason Kelley


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Steve-O
Unregistered




Re: Wrong Forum But I Don't Care... [Re: wxman007]
      #35407 - Sat May 14 2005 10:58 PM

Jason,

That's only the part of the bill that Accuweather and some of the data banks are mentioning. The bill specifically states that the government would be forbidden from posting weather products that any commercial establishment is "willing" to provide. As noted by man, Accuweather has a premium site that allows its paying members to access. As long as anyone is willing, that's all it's going to take. There was a great thread on Storm2k that Don Sutherland really explained the whole problem. A couple of other people who dissented (such as yourself) were later provided with the actual text of the bill. It's kind of a two part deal: Part 1 is that the government be banned from withholding data. Part 2, the insidious part, bans the government from providing information to the public (except severe stuff) if any commercial provider is willing to release that information under their auspices.

As you and everyone else around here knows, I have been a longtime defender of Bastardi and Accuweather. But I'm boycotting them this year. I wrote them and never heard a word back about their deceptive campaign. Shame on them, but they won't be getting any of my money this season.

Here's the thread which would be very worth your while (and everyone else's) to read and understand. The specific point which I was referencing:

Here is a pertinet exchange between wxmet57 (a professional met) and someone who researched the bill:

The bill looks fine to me. It may prevent the NWS/NHC from witholding valueable data in the future. Seems like the NHC was witholding recon data in recent years until HOURS after it was available to them.

wxmet57: I just don't see what all the fuss is about. No one is going to be prevented from receiving a forecast from the NWS.


x-y-no: Forgive me if I don't just believe that because you assert it. Section 2(b) of the bill is quite clear in saying that NWS may not compete by offering any service or data which could be provided by the private sector unless they can demonstrate that no private entity is willing to provide it. Now go to Accuweather Pro, and see just how much territory that covers. Along with forecasts, they have sattelite imagery, radar imagery, model output, etc. all things many of us here use on a daily basis free from NOAA. Now, by the plain wording of the bill, the government must stop offering those things since Accuweather has manifestly demonstrated the willingness to provide them.

The bill says that data shall be supplied through " a set of data portals designed for volume access by commercial providers of products or services" - it doesn't say anything about continuing to provide such data to the public, even though we've paid for it.

Also, the bill repeals 15 U.S.C. 313. I suggest you look that up and tell me deleting this from the law will have no effect.

Here's the link to the thread.

http://www.storm2k.org/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=61858

Steve


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Ed DunhamAdministrator
Former Meteorologist & CFHC Forum Moderator (Ed Passed Away on May 14, 2017)


Reged: Sun
Posts: 2565
Loc: Melbourne, FL
Re: Wrong Forum But I Don't Care... [Re: wxman007]
      #35408 - Sat May 14 2005 11:01 PM

The arrogance that Jason speaks of actually started over five years ago when NOAA fired Joe Friday (NWS Director), but this bill is not the solution to the NOAA arrogance problem. I too am a private meteorologist, but I do not support this bill. I have been in conversation with various folks in the NWS about the expected ramifications if this bill should pass, and here are their collective beliefs:
1. Raw weather data would not be available to the public (for free) from the NWS. No observational data, no radar data and no satellite data.
2. Before, during and after a major weather event, NWS meteorologists would not be allowed to go 'on-camera' to prepare the public or discuss the damage - and that includes the folks at NHC.
3. Weather radio would only be permitted to transmit warnings - in other words, most of the time it would be silent.
4. Weather data would not be available from the government on the internet for use by the general public - it would only be available through a service provider who had paid to receive it.
5. Free weather data, paid for by the public through their taxes, would have to be paid for again by those same citizens.

On this issue, I must side with Richard. The bill is not the solution to the arrogance problem, the arrogance problem simply became a convenient means to develop a bill that would support one of the Senator's constituents - and clobber the public access to weather data paid for by their taxes. It's a bad bill trying to solve a bad problem - and its not really off-topic, since the existence of this site really depends on the availability of free weather data.
ED

(...and thats about as strong as you'll see me get on an issue - obviously this one got my attention - but for different reasons.)

Ed Dunham
Chief Meteorologist
The Boeing Company


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LI Phil
User


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Re: Wrong Forum But I Don't Care... [Re: Ed Dunham]
      #35409 - Sat May 14 2005 11:22 PM

OK fellows...

I've remained silent on this issue because basically, i'm rather uninformed as to the bill's actual context...(i've also been 'out of the loop, so to speak, for the past 3 weeks or so)...however

i do work for a State Senator and while federal legislation can sometimes be quite different from state legislation (they like to stick in all kinds of riders and codacils in federal legislation which we can't do at the state level), but this seems to be quite similar to state legislation, with which i am intimately familiar.

i don't have the time right now to go back and get the actual bill number, but if someone could provide Mr. Santorum's legislation, replete with bill number, i will try to ascertain the actual intent and parameters and scope of this legislation.

at this moment i don't want to take any kind of a stand on the bill, but it is obviously generating some heated debate, especially in weather circles...

as a slightly off-topic aside, there is currently a bill in the house (not yet introed into the senate) which is an energy bill and which, among other things, if passed and signed into law, would extend daylight savings by TWO MONTHS. These are the kinds of things that our fine representatives are able to stick into legislation which is otherwise innocuous. The ramifications of extending daylight savings by 2 months are tremendous, yet we (save for me, as it's my job) never hear of these things...one other interesting piece of legislation which passed four or five years ago (but was subsequently amended) actually made a SIXTH Great Lake! Yep, for about 2 weeks, Lake Champlain was given "great lake" status and protection...i believe that was Senator Daniel Lahey (sp) who snuck that one through...

so lemme take a look at this bill...i can't say i'll be able to understand it any better than ya'll, but i'll give it a shot...all i need is the bill number and i'll take it from there...

this could be some really serious $h!+ and i for one would like to know the future of availability of data for which we, the people, have already paid for once...

ok...das my $.02 for now

Cheers,

LI Phil

--------------------
2005 Forecast: 14/7/4

BUCKLE UP!

"If your topic ain't tropic, your post will be toast"


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Ed DunhamAdministrator
Former Meteorologist & CFHC Forum Moderator (Ed Passed Away on May 14, 2017)


Reged: Sun
Posts: 2565
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Re: Wrong Forum But I Don't Care... [Re: LI Phil]
      #35410 - Sat May 14 2005 11:37 PM

I've emailed the bill to you.
Cheers,
ED


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LI Phil
User


Reged: Fri
Posts: 2637
Loc: Long Island (40.7N 73.6W)
Re: Wrong Forum But I Don't Care... [Re: Ed Dunham]
      #35411 - Sat May 14 2005 11:45 PM

Thanks, ED

I can't promise i can make any more sense out of it than any of you guys, but since this falls pretty much squarely within what i actually do for a living...lemme have at it...

the good thing about this is, i have no preconceived notions one way or the other about this legislation, so i will be as objective as possible (in other words, i'm not necessarily against the bill before i read it, and will therefore find only the negatives of the bill)...

i'll give you folks whatever analysis i can come up with (or get some insider dope from my friends in the house)...this could be some major, major....stuff.

--------------------
2005 Forecast: 14/7/4

BUCKLE UP!

"If your topic ain't tropic, your post will be toast"


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wxman007
Meteorologist


Reged: Sat
Posts: 617
Loc: Tuscaloosa, AL
Re: Wrong Forum But I Don't Care... [Re: Steve-O]
      #35412 - Sat May 14 2005 11:50 PM

I respectfully disagree.

I have read the bill many times over...I read it several times before it was a bill...it was vetted past me and several other mets prior to it's introduciton. I don't agree in full with it, but what you are attributing to be bill is just not what the bill says...have YOU read it?

The hook to this is that the Secretary of Commerce, as the titular head of NOAA is (within the bill) the FINAL arbitor of what is to be produced by NWS, and what is not...not Joel Myers or Accuweather or Weather Data or anyone else. NOAA's boss gets to "guard the henhouse", so to speak. The intent of this bill is NOT to eliminate the Zones or about 70% of the other forecast products out there. The real beef is with the NDFD with it's hourly point forecasts (which NOAA promised it would NOT do....until they decided to turn their backs on their agreement and do it), and a few other products. The average joe will likely never notice a difference, cause free public forecasts (as well as LOTS more free data) will be out there...the bill would be an absolute boon to websites like this one.

Under this bill SPC, NHC, TPC, NCEP, SWC, EMC, and HPC would be unchanged...the only real changes would be the structure of local offices and how they do business (which NOAA has been screaming that they don't have enough resources to do their valuable work of saving lives, but their forecasters do an hour or 2 of forecasting and 6 hours of entering numbers in a digital database? What a boondoggle THAT is!) As I said earlier, the person that makes the decision about what NWS can and cannot produce is not Accuweather or anyone in the CWSU, the elimination of any particular product or service is NOT MENTIONED in the bill...it states the SecCom makes that decision. What is wrong with that?

There are good people on both sides of this issue, and I totally respect those who don't like the bill...what I don't like are the lies and distortions (check out the NWS Employee's Union press release about the bill for some VERY creative writing and fact juggleing) that are used to vilifiy this bill.

Just because you don't like Accuweather is no reason to not be open minded about this bill (*no one in particular that is pointed at ...just a statement*)

--------------------
Jason Kelley


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Clark
Meteorologist


Reged: Wed
Posts: 1710
Loc:
Re: El Nino may calm storms ? [Re: B.C.Francis]
      #35413 - Sat May 14 2005 11:51 PM

Re: B.C. Francis' post...I've worked with Dave Zierden in the past -- just last summer, in fact -- and he's going to be watching those signals, but he and the group he works with, the Fl. Climate Center and COAPS here at Florida State, are usually very hesitant to jump the gun and declare an El Nino (or for that matter, La Nina) event. The warming we had earlier this year was never declared an El Nino by their group, the condition being that it did not meet their criterion of an extended period of substantial warming in the Pacific (as defined by the JMA index). If they're talking though, I'll listen.

--------------------
Current Tropical Model Output Plots
(or view them on the main page for any active Atlantic storms!)


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wxman007
Meteorologist


Reged: Sat
Posts: 617
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Re: Wrong Forum But I Don't Care... [Re: Ed Dunham]
      #35414 - Sun May 15 2005 12:08 AM

ED,

I am not calling you out, but your post demonstrates the outright mistruths that the NWSEU is spreading...let me elaborate.

Quote:


1. Raw weather data would not be available to the public (for free) from the NWS. No observational data, no radar data and no satellite data.




The exact opposite is true....from the bill.

"* (c) ISSUANCE OF DATA, FORECASTS, AND WARNINGS-

* (1) IN GENERAL- All data, information, guidance, forecasts, and warnings
received, collected, created, or prepared by the National Oceanic and
Atmospheric Administration or the National Weather Service shall, to the
maximum extent practicable, be issued in real time, and without delay for
internal use, in a manner that ensures that all members of the public have
the opportunity for simultaneous and equal access to such data, information,
guidance, forecasts, and warnings."

The public (ALL the public) gets unfettered access to all data that NWS creates and receives.

Quote:

2. Before, during and after a major weather event, NWS meteorologists would not be allowed to go 'on-camera' to prepare the public or discuss the damage - and that includes the folks at NHC.




I can tell you that this is an issue that I have with this bill...I want it changed and have shared this with CWSU..I do understand where they are coming from with this...it is designed to prevent NWS offices from providing free TV and radio weathercasts for TV stations (and it has already happened in one area...so don't think it can't)

Quote:

3. Weather radio would only be permitted to transmit warnings - in other words, most of the time it would be silent.




Again, no...someone out there thinks that this bill is trying to get rid of the zones, etc...not at all...NWR would keep churning along (considering 96% of the country don't even know what it is, what difference does it make anyway? LOL)

Quote:

4. Weather data would not be available from the government on the internet for use by the general public - it would only be available through a service provider who had paid to receive it.




I think where this one comes from is the following part of what I posted above:

"* (2) MODE OF ISSUANCE- Data, information, guidance, forecasts, and warnings
shall be issued under paragraph (1) through a set of data portals designed
for volume access by commercial providers of products or services and by such
other mechanisms as the Secretary of Commerce considers appropriate for
purposes of that paragraph."

It is inferred by many that this means only weather vendors get the info and can parse it out for free...but you have to look at the last part, in which the Secretary can disseminate the data however NOAA sees fit...Websites, FTP, etc...JUST like now!

Quote:

5. Free weather data, paid for by the public through their taxes, would have to be paid for again by those same citizens.




See above.

The problem with the bill is that there are lots of areas that are gray or poorly worded, and there are several areas I would like to see changed...however I can assure you that the nefarious accusations that have been levied towards the CWSU aren't what is actually in the cards.

--------------------
Jason Kelley


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Clark
Meteorologist


Reged: Wed
Posts: 1710
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Re: Wrong Forum But I Don't Care... [Re: wxman007]
      #35415 - Sun May 15 2005 12:18 AM

Jason -- I will completely agree that the way NOAA works is somewhat arrogant at times and that the current policy does not exactly foster everyone working together. I don't believe, however, that the proposed legislation is the way towards going about encouraging such interaction (though I will claim ignorance on many of the finer points of the bill, most of which still need to be hammered out between the various groups).

The NWS/NOAA did once have the no-compete clause; however, everything that they provide that conflicts with something another commercial vendor provides generally either originates from NOAA products (e.g. model data) or is a direct repackaging of NOAA products (e.g. satellite, radar). Further, NWS/NOAA was generally first to provide those services; effectively, the material fell under a grandfather clause, whether stated or implied. Of course, then the no-compete was repealed, and here we stand today. The AMS held a symposium telecast over the Internet regarding the issue about a year ago, with many of the players already mentioned in the thread present on the board.

The bigger question becomes, what is the most fair agreement between NOAA & the commercial sector? Any agreement is going to affect the entire field of meteorology, that much is certain. Similarly, the most fair solution is likely going to lie somewhere between the two extremes; determining where is the key issue here. Problem is, neither side seems to want to work cooperatively to resolve the issue: NOAA views it as circumvention to effectively eliminate many of their powers, while the commercial sector feels like they are trying to right a wrong and can't work with NOAA to do so. Something that allows fair and unfettered access to the data without limiting anyone's abilities to innovate, forecast, put out products, and so on is what is needed. For instance, universities get a wide array of data free under the current program, while such a luxury is not provided to commercial vendors. Thus, the universities can perform quite a bit of research at a reduced rate (which is good), but they can also use their status to create products that blow the commercial sector out of the water (price & often feature-wise). Rectifying that problem, perhaps by changing how data is filtered to the commercial vendors (without changing the entire structure of NOAA), is (IMO) the best way to start to address the problem. Building blocks can then go from there to develop a fair partnership.

Getting back to the arrogance of NOAA for a brief second, over time, they've decided to exert more and more power and control over the NWS itself, oftentimes much to the dismay of the NWS & those it affects. No longer is the NWS technically the NWS -- it is now NOAA's NWS. The gridded forecast product is a particularly hot topic of debate, as it relies on modified model output to populate the grids and, essentially, provide a forecast. Any private company that can do it better without overcharging the public twice for it is going to have success (and that's part of why the local weatherman is still going strong today...they are generally better than even a local NWS office). Further, since it is a national product, all office's forecasts have to match, something that can lead to some interesting debates and inconsistantcies between multiple offices when developing a forecast. It too came down from the top. The COMET program -- a valuable collaborative effort between the NWS & its affliates and universities -- has lost its funding, while student internship positions are sharply down across the board; while these two aspects may not solely be on NOAA's shoulders, it comes down from the top as well.

It's interesting, though, to hear the wide variety of views on this issue here on the board. I somewhat expected it, with the wide array of interests represented, but that's not a bad thing: it gets valid discussion going. I will say though that Sen. Santorum has been flooded with e-mails and calls about this legislation (mostly against, some for), but not primarily from those in the meteorological community. Instead, surprisingly enough, it comes from the technological community, where the vast majority come from an open-source mindset and would like to see things remain nearly the same as they are now (with minor changes). If anything, however, it just goes to show you how far-reaching the impacts of this bill may be.

As for the W. Caribbean invest: I've yet to see a satellite intensity estimate on it, but I would imagine it'd be T1.0/1.0 at best. There still appears to be some sort of circulation there with convection firing on its east side, but I feel it is currently too far north (and close to the subtropical jet) to see much development. There is a small & narrow ridge of high pressure aloft trying to build in from the east, as predicted by the models, but I think the storm may have moved too much for this to matter all that much. Model support for development is generally lacking in the area, however.

As someone mentioned, the NOGAPS & UKMET models try to develop something in the central Atlantic in the 5-7 day time frame, as in the latest run, but that's really too far out to speculate right now. The NOGAPS is stronger with development than the UKMET, with both models initially developing the storm as an extratropical low. However, as it moves northeast, both show some sort of subtropical (UK) or tropical (NOGAPS) transition of the cyclone. Bears watching, but too early out there, despite the relatively high SSTs for this time of year, to really get your hopes up.

--------------------
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wxman007
Meteorologist


Reged: Sat
Posts: 617
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Re: Wrong Forum But I Don't Care... [Re: Clark]
      #35416 - Sun May 15 2005 12:24 AM

Clark,

BRAVO. You hit it on the head...and better that I could have done. You tied it up very nicely, and I agree with (almost...lol) everything you said.

Sorry that I digressed so much on this Mods...back to the tropics now...promise.

--------------------
Jason Kelley


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Ed DunhamAdministrator
Former Meteorologist & CFHC Forum Moderator (Ed Passed Away on May 14, 2017)


Reged: Sun
Posts: 2565
Loc: Melbourne, FL
Re: Wrong Forum But I Don't Care... [Re: wxman007]
      #35418 - Sun May 15 2005 12:26 AM

Well at least we can agree to disagree on this one (sounds like your normal weather office to me). Some folks think that this may really be nothing more than an attempt to get the 'private weather service' ball rolling again - and they just might be correct. Obviously for a few grand, anybody can capture satellite data, however radar stuff is a bit more difficult. Does the NWS tend to exaggerate the impact? Of course, but then again I would expect them to. It is also fair to state that the 'lots more free data' that you speak of is also not mentioned in the bill. Free data at 4km isn't really too exciting if you end up paying for the 0.25km stuff that you now enjoy. The only thing wrong about the SecCom decision process is that those decisions will ultimately be guided by the law (and political pressure and funding pressure). Made for a lively discussion though!
Cheers,
ED


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Steve-O
Unregistered




Re: Wrong Forum But I Don't Care... [Re: wxman007]
      #35419 - Sun May 15 2005 12:29 AM

We'll have to disagree. As noted, if something sounds too good to be true, it is. No way Myers is donating to Santorum to not have this bill drafted. There may be aspects you like, but it's clear as day what is lying under the surface. There is a giant profit motive for the bill. Again, it is quite clear. I have read the bill. And this section and following, the reference back to it, should give any taxpayer chills. One would have to have a tremendous faith in government that no recent administration (particularly this one) with appointments of industry insiders and lobbyists to positions that sometimes greatly benefit the private sector at the expense of the public good. Here is the text that I have a serious problem with.

(b) COMPETITION WITH PRIVATE SECTOR.--The
20 National Weather Service shall not provide, or assist other
21 entities in providing, a service or product (other than a
22 service or product described in subsection (a)(1)(A)) that
23 is or could be provided by the private sector unless--

S 786 IS
3
1 (1) the Secretary determines that the private
2 sector is unwilling or unable to provide such service
3 or product; or
4 (2) the United States Government is obligated
5 to provide such service or product under inter-
6 national aviation agreements to provide meteorolog-
7 ical services and exchange meteorological informa-
8 tion.
9 (c) ISSUANCE DATA, FORECASTS, WARN-
OF AND

10 INGS.--All data, information, guidance, forecasts, and
11 warnings received, collected, created, or prepared by the
12 National Weather Service shall, to the maximum extent
13 practicable, be issued in real time, and without delay, in
14 a manner that ensures that all members of the public have
15 the opportunity for simultaneous and equal access to such
16 data, information, guidance, forecasts, and warnings.
17 (d) PROHIBITION CERTAIN DISCLOSURES.--An
ON

18 officer, employee, or agent of the National Weather Serv-
19 ice, or of any other department or agency of the United
20 States, who comes by reason of that status into possession
21 of any weather data, information, guidance, forecast, or
22 warning that might influence or affect the market value
23 of any product, service, commodity, tradable, or business
24 may not--




S 786 IS
4
1 (1) willfully impart, whether directly or indi-
2 rectly, such weather data, information, guidance,
3 forecast, or warning, or any part thereof, before the
4 issuance of such weather data, information, guid-
5 ance, forecast, or warning to the public under sub-
6 section (c); or
7 (2) after the issuance of such weather data, in-
8 formation, guidance, forecast, or warning to the
9 public under subsection (c), willfully impart com-
10 ments or qualifications on such weather data, infor-
11 mation, guidance, forecast, or warning, or any part
12 thereof, to the public, except pursuant to an
13 issuance that complies with that subsection.

Steve


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