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Archives >> 2006 News Talkbacks

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Storm Hunter
Veteran Storm Chaser


Reged: Wed
Posts: 1369
Loc: Panama City Beach, Fl. 30.16N 85.76W
Re: Forums [Re: Storm Cooper]
      #70514 - Wed Aug 23 2006 09:54 PM

Yeah i think we will be watching this one... This is starting to look like the first real system down the road
97L... i think once it gets into the carribean it will make it up to TS....
http://euler.atmos.colostate.edu/~vigh/guidance/atlantic/intensity1.png

oh yeah, this is what the Navy alerted:
UNCLAS //N03146//
MSGID/GENADMIN/NAVLANTMETOCCEN//
SUBJ/TROPICAL CYCLONE FORMATION ALERT 232330Z AUG 06//
RMKS/1. FORMATION OF A SIGNIFICANT TROPICAL CYCLONE IS POSSIBLE WITHIN
120 NM EITHER SIDE OF A LINE FROM 10.8N 54.7W TO 12.5N 62.7W
WITHIN THE NEXT 24 HOURS. AVAILABLE DATA DOES NOT JUSTIFY
ISSUANCE OF NUMBERED TROPICAL CYCLONE WARNINGS AT THIS TIME.
2. METSAT IMAGERY AND SYNOPTIC DATA AT 231800Z INDICATE THAT A 1010MB
SURFACE LOW PRESSURE CENTERED NEAR 10.7N 54.7W IS CURRENTLY
MOVING WEST-NORTHWEST AT 20 KNOTS. WINDS IN THE AREA ARE ESTIMATED
TO BE 25 TO 30 KNOTS. THE SYSTEM IS MOVING WEST-
NORTHWESTWARD AT 20 KNOTS.
3. THIS ALERT WILL BE REISSUED, UPGRADED TO WARNING OR CANCELLED BY
250000Z AUG 06.//

Moving a little fast with the trade winds... see what happens over night
**updated from NAVY....97LINVEST.30kts-1009mb-110N-547W **

--------------------
www.Stormhunter7.com ***see my flight into Hurricane Ike ***
Wx Data: KFLPANAM23 / CW8771
2012== 23/10/9/5 sys/strms/hurr/majh



Edited by Storm Hunter (Wed Aug 23 2006 10:06 PM)


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Beaumont, TX
Storm Tracker


Reged: Tue
Posts: 318
Re: Forums [Re: Storm Hunter]
      #70515 - Wed Aug 23 2006 10:10 PM

Is that some rotation I am seeing on 97L? Or are my eyes playing tricks on me? Maybe a depression by Friday?

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madmumbler
Storm Tracker


Reged: Wed
Posts: 318
Loc: Cape Haze Peninsula, SWFL 26.89N 82.29W
Re: Forums [Re: Beaumont, TX]
      #70516 - Wed Aug 23 2006 10:16 PM

Quote:

Is that some rotation I am seeing on 97L? Or are my eyes playing tricks on me? Maybe a depression by Friday?




The latest NHC discussion says conditions are favorable for something to develop over the next day or so. But I don't think there's a LLC, only mid level according to TWC's 9:50 update. That's what the hurricane hunters will find out tomorrow.
--

Okay, so I went back and re-read the TWD, and I'm pretty sure that Lyons on TWC said that there wasn't an LLC, but the TWD is mentioning a surface low.

Bottom line is, watch and see I guess.

--------------------
Lesli in SWFL.
(my 2009 guess - 14/7/5)
Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies.

Edited by madmumbler (Wed Aug 23 2006 10:21 PM)


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dem05
User


Reged: Wed
Posts: 368
Loc: Port Charlotte, FL
Re: Forums [Re: madmumbler]
      #70517 - Wed Aug 23 2006 10:19 PM

The 10:30 TWO by Stewart was pretty much to the point. Better Organized, Upper conditions remain conducive, and the conditions are expected to remain conducive for the development of a TD or TS tomorrow.

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Steve H1
Storm Tracker


Reged: Fri
Posts: 289
Loc: Palm Bay FL USA
Re: 97L [Re: Ron Basso]
      #70520 - Wed Aug 23 2006 10:33 PM

Though you have to admit Ron, this summer has seen unusual troughing in the southeast, including Florida. This same pattern that is allowing Debby to escape quickly northwest, may allow 97L or perhaps Ernesto, to turn northwest after moving through the central Caribbean. I see no strong evidence from the models 6 days out that any lasting ridging will be setting up in the east. If anything, the modles are suggesting troughiness, and an amplifying pattern.

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Genesis
Weather Guru


Reged: Wed
Posts: 119
Re: 97L [Re: Steve H1]
      #70522 - Wed Aug 23 2006 11:25 PM

6-7-8 days out its all a guess. You're talking about weather that is currently over the Pacific coming into the US and exerting its influence, and we just don't have enough data from that part of the world (there's this little problem with the OCEAN in the way of any sort of real numbers for the surface level stuff!)

Yes, we have WV imagery and such, but that's it.

WIth that said I don't like the 97L GFDL solution one bit. If there's troughiness then it is very likely to go into the gulf instead of across straight west into MX, and that's not good. The issue of course is when does it turn and how sharply; that sort of pattern puts literally anywhere in the gulf potentually under the gun.

Let's hope the GFDL is wrong on this one......

--------------------
Do you dive? http://www.scubaforum.org
Invest? Come talk on the Tickerforum


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Colleen A.
Moderator


Reged: Sat
Posts: 1364
Loc: Florida
Re: Forums [Re: Beaumont, TX]
      #70523 - Thu Aug 24 2006 12:28 AM

I've heard a lot of wx people talking about 97L tonight, and most of them are hinting that this will develop into a tropical system that we need to watch.

Please don't get me wrong anyone, but I personally would take what the NHC says a little more seriously than what TWC has to say. Not that TWC or Dr. Lyons are to be dismissed, they could very well be right. On the other hand, it's been my own observation that TWC usually agrees w/ the NHC and does not deviate all that much from the NHC's official forecast.

I should probably look myself for this information: if the TWD came out after the 9:50pm TW Update, than perhaps Dr. Lyons was relying on some old data.

Guess we will find out soon enough!

--------------------
You know you're a hurricane freak when you wake up in the morning and hit "REFRESH" on CFHC instead of the Snooze Button.


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HanKFranK
User


Reged: Mon
Posts: 1841
Loc: Graniteville, SC 33.56N 81.82W
deb/97 [Re: Genesis]
      #70524 - Thu Aug 24 2006 12:30 AM

debby doesn't have the SST/atmospheric conditions it needs to really blossom. the shear profile right now is very good, though... outflow is almost radial. if it's half that good as the sea temps and atmospheric moisture content go up, the storm could end up a good deal stronger than indicated officially. a lot of that depends on how soon the system encounters shear and how soon it begins to turn right around the ridge periphery. debby is the sort of storm we've had proportionately less of than usual since 2004, that is a storm that poses no real threat to land.
97L looks much better this evening than i'd suspected it would. barring a convective collapse or dramatic increase in shear (don't see either happening), it may well be classified tomorrow. might even happen before recon shows up, as the center will cross the southern windward islands during the day, and should provide evidence as to whether the surface low near 11/57 is closed.
97L, the 18th invest of the year, looks like the kind of system that is either going to off itself quickly or be a very big problem for somebody. the definition of the system, as far as how arced the windflow around it in the ITCZ is, as well as concentrated/bursting convection... has improved steadily during wednesday. in the short term, it is headed through a bottleneck in the trades, where the ridge is flattened to the north under the base of the broad, modest trough in the eastern u.s. there is imminent death if it meanders too far north into the southwesterly shear zone under the TUTT... but a flat, sheltering ridge oriented just along the north coast of venezuela to shelter it. this ridge is shown by some models to amplify (as an upper low is splitting off from the TUTT in the NW caribbean).. dependent on how much it does, it could provide a favorable environment for 97L. it doesn't seem highly likely that shear will prevent 97L from developing in the next couple of days; after that, the situation becomes confusing, because most of the globals don't show a real system (some also don't really see debby) and likely have the u/a picture all screwed up.
the big achilles heel 97L has, like many systems that have historically entered the caribbean, is its own speed. if it keeps plowing along at 20 kt or so, or speeds up to 25 kt, don't expect it to do very well. it will have a hard time closing/remaining closed, and won't be able to concentrate its energy or survive troublesome situations. this makes me hesitant to say it could strengthen much for the next couple of days... due to the high stakes involved. it is moving quickly and would likely be at tropical storm strength right off the bat if recon finds it closed. most guidance shows it slowing down as it gets past 65w or so... so if the system is still viable at about 70w it will most likely end up hurting somebody. really it has about two days in which to run itself to death... after that the u/a profile around it becomes its friend, and the western caribbean is kinda warm, too.
assuming it is there, near haiti/jamaica in 3 days... the potential future looks something like this: there is still enough zonal ridging over the u.s. and building into the western atlantic to probably keep it tracking wnw... with a bit of a weakness maybe influencing a viable system around day 2 and jerking it a tad nw... maybe giving it leeway with the upper low cutting off to the west. the upper low cutting off at the western edge of the TUTT will have to pull out, or it will just sit there like a spinblade ready for 97L to shred. if it withdraws 97L can keep its ridging and whatever vertical structure, maybe find a niche in the upper low (like chris couldn't 3 weeks ago), and start working its way up. the ridge over the eastern u.s. is zonal and not terribly strong... the models may have it a little underdone. the way it looks, a wnw/nw track would be favored towards the gulf.. unless it is way underdone or 97L fails to intensify much (in which case it would track more towards mexico).
but, just like chris at the start of the month, 97L has the potential to grow into a significant tropical cyclone and work its way into the gulf. hunch is the eventual track will be either mexico or the western gulf coast (tx/la), if a system forms. not something i have great confidence in, but don't think it will threaten florida. that is climatologically reasonable, but very risky, and not the sort of thing to take too seriously as of now. there are still some hurdles to negotiate, and it's a can of corn if it can't cut it in the near term.
HF 0429z24august

also, worth mentioning: globals indicate that another african wave may have a shot at development around the weekend. should track further south than debby at least through early next week, but the synoptic pattern over the atlantic doesn't really favor systems making it across through the next couple weeks or so. -HF

Edited by HanKFranK (Thu Aug 24 2006 12:35 AM)


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Storm Hunter
Veteran Storm Chaser


Reged: Wed
Posts: 1369
Loc: Panama City Beach, Fl. 30.16N 85.76W
Re: deb/97 [Re: HanKFranK]
      #70526 - Thu Aug 24 2006 01:44 AM

In the last three hours or so...97L has really came around... I think we could have a TD/TS at the 5am adv.. even without recon data.. I see navy has a sat about to fly over in 15mins or so... the blow-up of convection is showing some very cold cloud tops....The question is right now... will this last for a few more hours and allow the surface reflection to strengthen? I am thinking it may, SST's are warm... its staying to the south of the dust and the shear is not that strong. Looked at the CMC 00Z run... not good... the GOM is very warm at the last check i saw... will have to see what the rest of the models do... See the Click here then go to row one "Early-cycle intensity guidance Frame 1" ....New rule, can't link to image. I am thinking in line with hanks post above...

This should have new NAVY images in about 15 mins

learning how to place this sat image into google earth... SOME PRETTY cool stuff if you have fast computer and internet and google earth... Rainbow Flt 2 and here is the Cloud tops temp IR

--------------------
www.Stormhunter7.com ***see my flight into Hurricane Ike ***
Wx Data: KFLPANAM23 / CW8771
2012== 23/10/9/5 sys/strms/hurr/majh



Edited by Storm Hunter (Thu Aug 24 2006 01:47 AM)


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Bloodstar
Moderator


Reged: Mon
Posts: 395
Loc: Georgia Tech 33.78N 84.40W
Re: deb/97 [Re: Storm Hunter]
      #70527 - Thu Aug 24 2006 02:03 AM

ya beat me to the punch with that one... Just as a counterpoint, with the storm moving so fast, there still may not be a closed LLC. And that uncertainty may give the NHC enough pause to hold off on upgrading until recon can verify the system.

Otherwise, you're dead on, if the system maintains that nice ball of convection for the night, I'd be shocked if recon didn't find a LLC in that mass.

--------------------
TD/TS/HU/MH
19/18/0905 <- My prediction (2013 Predictions)
00/00/00/00 <- Year Totals

http://blog.bloodstar.org


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cieldumort
Moderator


Reged: Mon
Posts: 1020
Loc: Texas 30.40N 97.80W
Re: deb/97 [Re: Bloodstar]
      #70528 - Thu Aug 24 2006 03:43 AM

Counterpoint - Counterpoint

Perhaps we get an impressive-enough 37GHz, or similar microwave pass, and/or Quikscat, that is just too convincing. In either case, best I can tell the circulation is still mostly in the mid-levels, even now.

It's such a shame that we do not have buoys lined up from Africa to the Panama Canal, and everywhere in between north and south. Forecasting might be just so much easier.

97 does have a healthy anticyclone atop of it - less dry air to contend with than waves prior - certainly a mlc that may already be closed or closing somewhere at the surface - deep convection - some banding - very warm waters ahead - lots of good reasons to expect ongoing development. As has already been stated, the possible outrunning of it's envelope would surely be a major impediment, as could some impact from that outrageous shear to it's northwest, if not an outright kiss of death.


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RedingtonBeachGuy
Moderator


Reged: Tue
Posts: 319
Loc: Orlando, FL
Re: deb/97 [Re: Storm Hunter]
      #70529 - Thu Aug 24 2006 04:10 AM

Hank - at 4 am it looks like 97 is splitting in two.. perhaps it is just the heavier bands on the NE quadrant I am seeing that is suggesting it is splitting.

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EugeneF
Unregistered




Re: deb/97 [Re: RedingtonBeachGuy]
      #70530 - Thu Aug 24 2006 06:25 AM

Hey, how did you get the Navy site to show all four scans in the same image, I cant seem to find the setting on top when I go back to the parent page, I can only bring up the scans individually.

Thanks,
Gene


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dem05
User


Reged: Wed
Posts: 368
Loc: Port Charlotte, FL
Re: deb/97 [Re: RedingtonBeachGuy]
      #70531 - Thu Aug 24 2006 06:28 AM Attachment (200 downloads)

Please see attatched file of the 89H satelite photo of 97L. I do not believe you are seeing a split at all. In fact, the system is looking better organized all the time. It's a generally small system, but it's getting close to being a TD looking at this.

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cieldumort
Moderator


Reged: Mon
Posts: 1020
Loc: Texas 30.40N 97.80W
Re: deb/97 [Re: dem05]
      #70532 - Thu Aug 24 2006 07:07 AM

The appearance has been pretty darn good overnight - with the AMSRE overpass doing the system justice. Suspect that if we were flying around in there overnight it might have been slightly better than 50/50 chances of finding a closed low level center. And with the winds already supporting a call of TS, it will be most interesting to see if 97 still doesn't get the bump before recon gets in there.

Wanted to point something else out - not 98L, yet. However, we have an ULL in the NE GOM that has been sitting and spinning, with very little overall net movement for several days. Some model runs were building this feature down and spitting out a TC/hybrid from it. Believe a few still hint at such an evolution. I think that it's worth pointing out that I've plotted numerous obs from the area and have ascertained that a very weak low level reflection may be closing off underneath the ULL, somewhere in the vicinity of 26-29N/86-88W, with a min. sea-level pressure of now roughly 1012MB, and generally on a lowering trend throughout the entire GOM.


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GuppieGrouper
Weather Master


Reged: Fri
Posts: 596
Loc: Polk County, Florida
Re: deb/97 [Re: cieldumort]
      #70533 - Thu Aug 24 2006 07:55 AM

At 7:51 this morning, the Western Caribbean Satellite makes it look like a virtual train of potential storms. The scary thing is they are lined up all in the same direction, seemingly all headed toward the gulf. They do not seem to be all that far behind each other. Hopefully it will impair any one of them from strengthening past a large thunderstorm. It is ok with me if we do not have a hurricane at all this year.,

--------------------
God commands. Laymen guess. Scientists record.

Edited by GuppieGrouper (Thu Aug 24 2006 08:05 AM)


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SirCane
Storm Tracker


Reged: Tue
Posts: 248
Loc: Pensacola, FL
Re: deb/97 [Re: RedingtonBeachGuy]
      #70534 - Thu Aug 24 2006 08:03 AM

No, it's just getting itself organized. I'm kinda concerned about this one because we're getting into the peak of the season and it looks like it's destined for the Gulf area.

--------------------
Direct Hits:
Hurricane Erin (1995) 100 mph
Hurricane Opal (1995) 115 mph
Hurricane Ivan (2004) 130 mph
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Cat 5orBust
Weather Hobbyist


Reged: Tue
Posts: 90
Re: 97L [Re: MikeC]
      #70535 - Thu Aug 24 2006 08:20 AM

just looked at the new GFDL model run and it now doesn't even develop 97L. The run previous to it had it almost as a cat 2 approaching the Bahamas. seems obvious that the computers wont have a good handle on this until if forms or doesn't form.

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MapMaster
Weather Guru


Reged: Tue
Posts: 138
Re: 97L [Re: Genesis]
      #70536 - Thu Aug 24 2006 08:33 AM

I was struck this morning by how similar the two system look on sat..although Debby is better organized of course.

Striking.

MM


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cieldumort
Moderator


Reged: Mon
Posts: 1020
Loc: Texas 30.40N 97.80W
Re: 97L [Re: Cat 5orBust]
      #70537 - Thu Aug 24 2006 08:36 AM

The models have entirely underimpressed in the Atlantic basin this year.

With respect to the GFDL track into the Bahamas. This was primarily a response to the trof digging into the western Caribbean from all of the ULL action crossing NE Mexico - GOM - W Atlantic. While this seems somewhat plausible in and of itself, if the shear is to relax as most shear model forecasts suggest it will, it seems contradictory. So, I would not give too much benefit of the doubt to a NW turning N track just yet. Many other models, that so far aren't doing major flip-flops like the GFDL just did, still have 97 cruise into the Carib, gradually turning harder WNW to NW into the GOM.


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