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News Talkback >> 2007 News Talkbacks

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MikeCAdministrator
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Two Things to Watch and Flossie
      #76128 - Sat Aug 11 2007 02:03 PM

9AM 13 Aug 2007 Update
Indications from Dvorak satellite estimates suggest that 90l may now be a tropical depression, advisories may start as early as 11AM EDT.

5:20PM EDT Update
The wave off Africa has been designated invest 90, and is being tracked by the NRL as such. Model runs have began on it, and I'm not liking what I see. Westward ho--for a good while, 90 L will likely be this year's first long track Cape Verde system. (really the first since Ivan in 2004--this does NOT mean I think it will take a track like Ivan, however)



Chances for Tropical Development of Wave off Africa (90L) In Next 3 days (Updated 9AM 12 Aug - TCFA Issued)
Code:

(forget it) 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 (sure thing)
[--------------*-----]



It has the potential, if it persists, to become a depression over the next few days. The stronger it gets further east out in the Atlantic, the more likely it will recurve away from the Caribbean and potentially out to sea. Conversely, and more likely, the weaker it remains longer, the more likely it will continue a westward track.

As mentioned, this is the first potential Cape Verde storm of the season, and it should be a reminder to those in the Caribbean to be prepared. Even though we have a good number of days to watch 90L.

Remember it takes a few days for models to get a handle on newly formed systems, and data out in the Central and Eastern Atlantic for upper level winds isn't all that great. Many waves off Africa die down a bit after the initial phase, so it is possible the system will lose it, and hopefully it will. However conditions are good enough to hold it together for the foreseeable future.

Those in the lesser Antilles will want to watch for it by next late next week into the weekend (16-18th) , there is a decent chance a storm will be near or over there at that time. As such soon thereafter others in the Caribbean may need to watch.


For those along the east coast of the US, i'd watch it, if would be just about a week and a half out (21st) for it to get anywhere close to us, assuming it doesn't fall apart or curve out to sea before then.

Now for the realm of speculation, based on models...



What we don't want is the scenario given by some of the super long range models, The long range GFS earlier today had the system heading toward South Florida (Also EMCWF), and later into the Gulf near Houston, ( See this and This)
I'm sure it'll be back somewhere else at the next runs around midnight. What does this mean? Nothing--models at that range are about the same as throwing a dart from a moving car on a dirt road, but it's another sign that the season is about to get active and that we must watch. Average error for models at that range is over 1000 (a thousand) miles.

Intensity wise, the first GFDL run on the system takes it to Hurricane strength by the time it gets to 40 degrees west. (Currently it is at 20 degrees West), the HRWF model brings it to a Category 3 hurricane before reaching the Caribbean.

It's more important for East Coast and Gulf Coast folks, just wait to see model trends, and do not take any one run of the long range models to heart right now. I certainly don't think much of them beyond Wednesday or so as worth anything,.

With that said, we'll definitely be watching it, and it's a good idea to check back during the week to see the updates with this system, especially if it develops into a named Storm. The next name up on the list is Dean. There are other indications that other storms may follow this one as well, which is not too uncommon for mid to late August.

Not to forget the West Caribbean System, it's closer to land and still not really moving much, it still needs to be watches as well, but it is less likely to develop.

Chances for Tropical Development of Disturbance in Western Caribbean
Code:

(forget it) 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 (sure thing)
[-----*--------------]



Original Update
After a lull week, the system in the West Caribbean is still rather unorganized, but will have to be watched. It's near Jamaica at the moment and nearing Cuba and the Cayman Islands, mainly causing rain in the area. The system is still moving westward and will have to be watched a bit longer, but development chances are still pretty low.



The system in the Eastern Atlantic, that has recently come off Africa, is moving west, and has a long track west and will have to be watched. If it persists it could develop over the next several days, it's moving westward right now.



In the Pacific, Hurricane Flossie, crossing from the eastern Pacific Hurricane Basin into the Central Hurricane Basin, has the potential to affect Hawaii, and in such a case, would begin to be discussed here more. RIght now Hurricane Flossie's windspeed is around 130MPH. It's likely to weaken as it moves a bit westward, and the current forecast rack moves it south of Hawaiian Islands, however they are still within the cone of error. Flossie is moving out of the basin covered by the National Hurricane Center, and is now entering the area covered by the Central Pacific Hurricane Center.

More discussion on Flossie can be found Here, in this topic.

Event Related Links

Central Pacific Hurricane Flossie
Hurricane Flossie Maps/Advisories

Central Pacific Hurricane Center

West Caribbean System
StormCarib Reports from the Caribbean Islands

Caribbean Weather Observations

Barbados Brohav Weather Fax

Full Caribbean Radar Composite

Caribbean Broadcast Corporation (TV/Radio from Antilles)

San Juan, PR NWS Page

Various Caribbean Radio Stations

DR1 Dominican Republic Hurricanes


90L (Far Eastern Atlantic System) Event Related Links


float4latest.gif stormplotthumb_4.gif

SFWMD Model Plot (Animated Model Plot) SFWMD Hurricane Page


[https://flhurricane.com/floatanimator.php?year=2007&storm=4 Flhurricane Satellite Floater Animation of 90L
GOES Floater
Animated Skeetobite Model Plot of 90L


Clark Evans Track Model Plot of 90L (Animated!) Model Plots in Google Earth - In Google Maps
Clark Evans Intensity Model Plot of 90L (Animated!)

Clark Evans Track Plot of 90L

Other Model Charts from Clark

Clark Evans Top 10 Analog Storms for 90L
More model runs on from RAL/Jonathan Vigh's page
NRL Info on 90L -- RAMMB Info
COD Atlantic Satellite View


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stormchazer
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Re: Two Things to Watch and Flossie [Re: MikeC]
      #76130 - Sat Aug 11 2007 04:47 PM

Looks like the African Wave is being initialized as 90L.

NRL is not working but Weatherunderground has it up.

http://www.weatherunderground.com/tropical/tracking/at200790_model.html

Edited by stormchazer (Sat Aug 11 2007 04:49 PM)


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HCW
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Re: Two Things to Watch and Flossie [Re: MikeC]
      #76131 - Sat Aug 11 2007 04:48 PM

90L is up now on the navy site for the wave in the eastern Atlantic


I wouldn't put much faith in these early model runs but here they are


http://www.sfwmd.gov/org/omd/ops/weather/plots/storm_90.gif

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Old Sailor
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Re: Two Things to Watch and Flossie [Re: MikeC]
      #76133 - Sat Aug 11 2007 09:16 PM

Looking at Flossie looks she gone up in wind speed I would say about 145MPH . not down like they were forcasting for it to do..










Old Sailor


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Beaumont, TX
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Re: Two Things to Watch and Flossie [Re: MikeC]
      #76134 - Sat Aug 11 2007 09:30 PM

Good thing is these long range models are off by 1000 miles.

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Storm Hunter
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Re: Two Things to Watch and Flossie [Re: Old Sailor]
      #76135 - Sat Aug 11 2007 09:42 PM

well a few of the 00Z runs are up..... this looks to be our first system of the cape this year, that has the best chance down the road of forming... looking at the sats this evening... this is the healthiest one so far this season... and like others have said... its got to survive the next few days as it crosses the Atlantic.... but looks like it could stay south of the ridge and enter the islands... we really don't know until we get a couple of runs on this invest. Maybe by late monday into tuesday, we should have a better handle on what the long term sceneros may be on this system... But the WAVE train in running now... and its nothing new... just we didn't have that many last year form that close to the Cape, due to alot of dust....

****By the way i saw a story... one of the HRD researchers... will look for it online... he's been with NOAA/HRD for a long time and said on camera, that the signals are coming together now... with la nina type pattern... its looking more likely that the atlantic could get busy in the coming weeks...*** he's expecting this system could be the start to an active period going into the peak of hurricane season***

--------------------
www.Stormhunter7.com ***see my flight into Hurricane Ike ***
Wx Data: KFLPANAM23 / CW8771
2012== 23/10/9/5 sys/strms/hurr/majh



Edited by Storm Hunter (Sat Aug 11 2007 11:45 PM)


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Clark
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Re: Two Things to Watch and Flossie [Re: Storm Hunter]
      #76136 - Sat Aug 11 2007 10:46 PM

Personally, I think this is the start of a very active 4-5 week period with perhaps 8-9 storms through the middle to late part of September. The pieces are indeed all coming together out there -- waters are finally warming up off of the coast of Africa, SAL hasn't been much of a concern of late, shear is being held at bay, and for anything that can get west of 75W, the waters are like bath water. A favorable MJO (or at least upper level divergence) phase looks to be on its way and the wave train coming off of Africa is looking better. There's a lot of truth in what the guy from the HRD said, IMO.

With regards to 90L...

Barring anything unexpected overnight, I think we've passed the stage where something could substantially hinder this from developing in the next couple of days. Convection, while small in extent, is holding together and trying to consolidate near or just west of the center under light to moderate easterly shear. It seems to be just far enough south at 12N to keep from ingesting too much stable air and passing over the cooler SSTs across the region; I still think these factors will tend to hold intensification and organization in check until it gets to 40W, however. I expect we'll see some consolidation during the day on Sunday and probably an upgrade to a depression either late tomorrow or into Monday. NHC will play it conservative for now, I think, as they are well aware of the negative environmental factors still at play.

Expect slow but steady intensification until it nears 50W or so, where some slightly more significant intensification may take place. The GFS output fields have been showing a weak upper low on the north side of the ridge that the cyclone travels to the south of; it looks to be weak enough and far enough away to potentially be more of a help to the storm than a harm in terms of evacuating outflow and the like, but we'll have to watch that. It looks like we'll have a hurricane on our hands by the time it nears the Lesser Antilles in 5-7 days. Just where it impacts them -- or if it slides north of them -- remains to be seen. Any significant northward tug looks like it's going to come from the departing/deamplifying NE trough. Whether it is enough to take the system clear of Puerto Rico and Hispaniola remains to be seen.

From there, confidence is increasing on a potential threat to the SE US -- particularly Florida -- and eventually the Gulf of Mexico, as others have alluded to here. If the system currently in the Caribbean tries to develop, this thinking could be altered, particularly if this disturbance interacts with or is engulfed by the midlatitude flow pattern across the US. Simply put, however, I think that by the time this gets near the Lesser Antilles, we are going to know with a high degree of certainty where this storm is going to go in the 7+ day period beyond that time, just as we have a pretty good handle on the 5-7 day pattern now.

Having said all of that, I'll conclude with two points...
1) This looks to be the most interesting Cape Verde system and potential evolution since the early part of the 2005 season.
2) There are going to be a number of boring days ahead once this system does form...these things are nice to look at, but until you get recon out there, not *that* interesting! Once we get recon out there, though, it's game on.

Oh yeah, and current model plots (image will update as long as it is available as 90L)...


Above link to current model forecast plot...~danielw
Reduced image bicubically to make it still readable, clicking image goes to real link, see post below about animation and mirror~MikeC

Edited by MikeC (Sun Aug 12 2007 12:11 AM)


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West FL Jess
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Re: Two Things to Watch and Flossie [Re: Storm Hunter]
      #76137 - Sat Aug 11 2007 10:48 PM



Quote:

****By the way i saw a story... one of the HRD researchers... will look for it online... he's been with NOAA/HRD for a long time and said on camera, that the signals are coming together now... with la nina type pattern... its looking more likley that the atlantic could get busy in the coming weeks...*** he's expecting this system could be the start to an active period going into the peak of hurricane season***




do you have a link for the story?

--------------------
~jess~



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MikeCAdministrator
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Re: Two Things to Watch and Flossie [Re: Clark]
      #76138 - Sat Aug 11 2007 11:45 PM

Clark's models are also mirrored here at This link and the animated version of it at this link.

Note that Clark's website at FSU;s live link follows the 90 naming convention, whereas flhurricane uses a running storm count, ie storm 4, if another system were to be named a depression, it would take the 4 slot and 90l would be moved to 5, if 90l develops before any other system, it will remain at storm 4. If 90l were to die out and not develop and 91L replaced it, then 91l would take the #4 spot. If 91L develops while 90L is active, 91L would take the #5 spot.

The images are a work in progress,,so it may not be until later in the week that they get updated more often.


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Storm Hunter
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Re: Two Things to Watch and Flossie [Re: MikeC]
      #76140 - Sun Aug 12 2007 02:12 AM

**will post a link if i can find that story***

Was looking at the last few years of GOM, SST's and trying to compare them... something of notice i saw... 2005 SST's in GOM in the first week of August, look almost the same as 2007's SST in the last week... the 2006 water temps stand out like a sore thumb... One place that stood out with water temps in GOM is from Tampa, down to the Keys... ITS VERY WARM water showing up in the last few days....
Water Temps near the keys Station 42014
Hot Bath water - around 90 degrees!!!
Water just to the west of Tampa Station 42022

Aug 10th, 2007 SST
Aug. 10th, 2005 SST
Aug. 10th, 2006 SST

Tropical Cyclone Heat Potential Look at the GOM in a whole..... Boy sure does look like the Loop Current is flaring up now... *warm waters coming up from Carb. into GOM**

TCHP Carb.

--------------------
www.Stormhunter7.com ***see my flight into Hurricane Ike ***
Wx Data: KFLPANAM23 / CW8771
2012== 23/10/9/5 sys/strms/hurr/majh



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Steve
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Re: Two Things to Watch and Flossie [Re: Storm Hunter]
      #76141 - Sun Aug 12 2007 08:36 AM

I know the site's official bet on 90L is 5.5 out of 10 that it develops. I'd give it 8.5. I'm not sure where it's going to get classified, but I think it's probably going to happen. GFS long range has been all over the place over the last 3 days with threat areas. It's speculated everything from a fish spinner, to coastal NC, to GA/SC, to South Florida, to the Panhandle, to New Orleans, to Houston, to Mexico (per the 06Z GFS)

http://www.nco.ncep.noaa.gov/pmb/nwprod/analysis/namer/gfs/06/index_pcp_s_loop.shtml

Western Pacific teleconnections (TD #09) would agree with strong ridging into the SEUS 10 days down the line. That's something to watch to see if it becomes an eventual hit on Taiwan or the Chinese mainland (telegraphing downstream ridging 7-10 days in the West Atlantic).

https://metocph.nmci.navy.mil/jtwc/warnings/wp0907.gif

Gonna be an interesting few weeks. I completely agree with Clark and other mets who beileve that once this season gets going, it's going to be fast and furious.

FWIW, Accuweather's 8/07 video update said they were still calling for 6 U.S. landfalls (4 canes - 1 or 2 major, 2 Tropical Storms). We haven't seen much yet, so if those guys are right, 2007 will be remembered for a long time to come much like 2002, 2004 and 2005 have been thus far in the decade.

Steve

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MikeCAdministrator
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Re: Two Things to Watch and Flossie [Re: Steve]
      #76142 - Sun Aug 12 2007 09:07 AM

A Tropical Cyclone Formation Alerta (TCFA) has been issued for 90L, and the chances on the front page have been upgraded appropriately. This means that 90L is expected to form into a depression or better within 24 hours.

Also Clark still has a few quirks with his model graphic, so it probably won't be updated all that much if at all this week.


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Ron Basso
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Re: Two Things to Watch and Flossie [Re: MikeC]
      #76144 - Sun Aug 12 2007 10:46 AM

There seems to be an emerging consensus on the expansion of the upper Level ridge over the southern plains eastward into the western Atlantic Ocean. The ECMWF 500 mb pattern from days 7 through 10 shows this development. If this pattern holds, the US east coast could be spared from soon to be tropical cyclone Dean. Of course, that means FL, the Greater Antilles, Yucatan, and GOM may be in the projected path of this system down the road.

From 8/12 morning HPC Disc:

SOUTHERN PLAINS/LOWER MS VALLEY/TN VALLEY/SOUTHEAST...

THE MODELS ARE IN GOOD AGREEMENT ON THE DEEP LAYER ANTICYCLONE AND
CORE OF THE HOT AIR MASS REMAINING ACRS THE SOUTHERN PLAINS AND
LOWER MS VALLEY AND DRIFTING EAST DAYS SIX/SEVEN. THERE IS ALSO
AGREEMENT ON THE DEEP LAYER SOUTHWEST ATLANTIC RIDGE BUILDING WEST
TO THE SOUTHEAST COAST...WITH THE POSSIBILITY OF THE TWO MERGING
INTO ONE LARGE/ELONGATED RIDGE ACRS THE SOUTHERN PLAINS TO THE
SOUTHEAST COAST BY DAY SEVEN. MODEL DIFFERENCES ARE ON THE LEVEL
OF DETAIL SO A CONSENSUS SHOULD SUFFICE.

--------------------
RJB


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MikeCAdministrator
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Re: Two Things to Watch and Flossie [Re: Ron Basso]
      #76145 - Sun Aug 12 2007 10:59 AM

There is also another system that's poised to start a wave train behind 90L,



A few models have already picked up on that as well, it complicates the forecast, and really for 90L it could go anywhere, still watching trends in the models, the European one still takes it close to the Florida coastline, although the latest run even suggests a turn out to sea, while the GFS wants to head it into the Gulf eventually. I'm not sure the models are taking the SAL into account correctly, either. It just means the Southeast and Gulf states will have something to keep watch on until we know more next week.



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Random Chaos
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Re: Two Things to Watch and Flossie [Re: MikeC]
      #76147 - Sun Aug 12 2007 12:44 PM

While the CMC is known for blowing up systems where none occur, it's having a scary time with the gulf system that is being watched, turning it into a major storm that loops around the Yucatan and then hits Mexico. I don't hold much credence to the model given that GFS, NOGAPS, and UKMET aren't seeing it yet, but it is still a system to pay attention to.

--
Edit - adding additional reference:


UKMET shows a possible system looping around the Yucatan, but doesn't deepen it the way the CMC does. Link:
http://weather.uwyo.edu/cgi-bin/model?MO...one&C1=pmsl

---
Edit 2:

The 12Z model runs don't develop the gulf system at all.

Edited by Random Chaos (Sun Aug 12 2007 02:39 PM)


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MikeCAdministrator
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Re: Two Things to Watch and Flossie [Re: Random Chaos]
      #76148 - Sun Aug 12 2007 03:42 PM

trying to avoid overstating 90L, since we did somewhat with 99L earlier this month, but I don't think it'll make depression status today. The center is a bit too exposed for that, maybe tomorrow afternoon.

The model runs this afternoon are interesting, the best case this time is the European model, which dissipates the system (I'm hoping for this one). However, that particular model isn't all that great with tropical cyclone development.

Most other models have gone west into the Eastern Caribbean, CMC puts it as a category 3 hurricane.near the leewards, GFDL and HWRF predicts a category 2 hurricane, GFS keeps it lower as a tropical storm, NOGAPS isn't picking up on it at all, and the UKMet keeps it a tropical storm as it nears the Leewards.

I think with the fast forward motion it won't have the chance to really develop into too strong a ssytem, so I'd go with a high Tropical Storm or Category 1 Hurricane toward the end of the week. The current speed of the models predicts it getting near the Lesser Antilles around Thursday. Still, I hate going too much into systems that have not formed into tropical entities yet.

I don't really take all that much stock in the models, I do agree with the current westward trend, at least until Wednesday or so. I'm not buying into a lot of the high end intesity forecasts, and rather hope that it just falls apart. Relative shear is ok for the system at the current rate of motion to keep itself together at least as it crosses westward.


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Random Chaos
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Re: Two Things to Watch and Flossie [Re: MikeC]
      #76149 - Sun Aug 12 2007 04:29 PM

90L:

Taking a look at the SSTs and hurican heat potential (HHC) maps, there isn't a lot of heat before it reaches the Windward Islands. If the storm curves north toward the east coast, the surface temperatures are lower, and development will be slower.

I do see that in addition to lower-than-optimal SSTs ahead of it, there appears to be some SAL (Saharan Air Layer) dipping in front of it that will probably slow it's development.

I would expect that it won't do a lot until it passes the Windward Islands, but then it will get into much warmer waters that could aid development, but that's too far out for anything more than guessing.

Reference SST/HHC: http://www7320.nrlssc.navy.mil/hhc/all_watl.html
Reference SAL: http://cimss.ssec.wisc.edu/tropic/real-time/wavetrak/sal.html


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GuppieGrouper
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Re: Two Things to Watch and Flossie [Re: MikeC]
      #76150 - Sun Aug 12 2007 07:19 PM

Mike, I really am hoping that every one is jumping the gun on this 90L. Conjuring the name Ivan is also worrisome because so many of us in Florida were so devastated by this particular named storm. I realize that much can happen before the invest becomes a threat to the first island chain, but we really, really need to not hype this storm due to the financial devastation that could occur in Florida due to the panic and speculation of the busineses and general public who make millions off of hurricane supplies, speculations of disasters and so forth. I appreciate the coverage here especially when there is a real threat to anyone in the path of any hurricane. But please, please wait until the models are verified before allowing the hype to start here. So many people have learned of this site in the last 5 years and take it almost more seriously than the news media Thanks Mary

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hurricaneguy
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Re: Two Things to Watch and Flossie [Re: GuppieGrouper]
      #76151 - Sun Aug 12 2007 07:26 PM



The storm is starting to blossom a little bit. The NHC said any increase of organization would result in a TD. Does anybody think they will up it at 11pm? Or just be conservative since it is so far out to sea and wait?

Edited by hurricaneguy (Sun Aug 12 2007 07:27 PM)


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Storm Cooper
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Re: Two Things to Watch and Flossie [Re: GuppieGrouper]
      #76152 - Sun Aug 12 2007 07:42 PM

What MikeC. has pointed out is a very, very early assessment of this system. Nothing at all is set to prove true forecast wise other than model runs and they are just that, model runs.. If you bunch everything up right now that is about all we have. I think the message here being missed is to be ready just in case. We have a ways to go yet so lets not get too involved in the next possible system.

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Hurricane Season 2017 13/7/1


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