| cyclonekiller |
| (Verified CFHC User) |
| Thu Nov 03 2005 06:59 PM |
Pascal's and Bernoulli's principle combined will weaken Hurricanes
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Here is how it will work. Anchor a large tunnel to the sea floor like a buoy but in several locations around the tunnel to hold it fast to the sea bed.
Position it to where one open end opposes the current at depth where the cool water is and the other open end at the surface faces away from the current. What happens is a difference in pressure is created at both ends and when a pressure difference is created flow occurs. That is the beauty of Bernoulli's principle. Cool water is bought up from below thus mixing with the warm water at the surface. The tunnel is neutrally buoyant with the top end just under the surface. Remember it can only work where there is a current. No current, no difference in pressure. Also, enough electricity can be generated for millions of people in Florida.
| cyclonekiller |
| (Verified CFHC User) |
| Thu Nov 03 2005 07:38 PM |
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Re: Pascal's and Bernoulli's principle combined will weaken Hurricanes
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With the use of both of these principles combined no pumps are needed since the water will flow up the tunnel naturally. They can also be placed in the Yucatan and Caribbean currents thus cooling the Gulf of Mexico via the loop current thus saving the Gulf States, if placed SW of Key West They will save the whole East coast Of North America. The ssts can be regulated to 70 to 75 degrees by the addition of a gate on the discharge end of the tunnel that regulates the flow of cool water flowing from them. Also, these tunnels will generate enough electricity for millions of people from the flow of water coming from them.
| cyclonekiller |
| (Verified CFHC User) |
| Sun Nov 06 2005 03:29 PM |
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Re: Pascal's and Bernoulli's principle combined will weaken Hurricanes
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So sad. My idea would prevent this from happening.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051106/ap_on_re_us/midwest_tornado
| Clark |
| (Meteorologist) |
| Mon Nov 07 2005 06:28 PM |
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Re: Pascal's and Bernoulli's principle combined will weaken Hurricanes
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And what about the ecological impacts across the Gulf of Mexico? How about the cost feasibility for the Gulf, Caribbean, and Atlantic? How about the overall impacts on global weather and climate -- after all, hurricanes redistribute heat from the tropics to the midlatitudes to keep the global climate system in balance. And, last I checked, tornadoes don't have a lot to do with the oceans.
I'm sorry, but while it may sound good in principle, it just doesn't work in reality, creating many more problems than it would solve -- as strange as that may sound given the cost of hurricanes in terms of both human life and dollars. Removing hurricanes would throw the entire climate system out of balance, with many repercussions.
| cyclonekiller |
| (Verified CFHC User) |
| Mon Nov 07 2005 07:35 PM |
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Re: Pascal's and Bernoulli's principle combined will weaken Hurricanes
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The idea does not eliminate the hurricanes it modifys them to a much weaker state no more than a catagory one by regulating the SSTs. The transfer of heat to the mid laditudes still occurs. The ocean temperature is regulated between 70 and 75 degrees and therefore as the storm crosses the cooler water it just weakens but it is not eliminated. BTW during the winter the temperature of the gulf is below 70 degrees so this should not harm sea life.
Tornado's may not even form in the mid west because of the cooler temperatures in the Gulf thus cooling the warm air migrating to the North out of the Gulf Of Mexico. Since the air is cooler not as much lift is created in the atmosphere for tornados to form.
| Clark |
| (Meteorologist) |
| Tue Nov 08 2005 01:57 AM |
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Re: Pascal's and Bernoulli's principle combined will weaken Hurricanes
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Again, it's not quite that simple. The amount of heat transferred is proportional to the storm's intensity; by modifying storm intensity -- taking the SSTs down to 70-75F would not lead to category 1 storms, it would lead to almost no storms, with the caveat that SSTs are not the sole factor toward TC intensity -- you would be changing the heat transfer across the globe.
Water temperatures are not constant with depth; in fact, they are far from it. Further, the annual cycles of SSTs plus the change in SSTs with depth play a key role in maintaining stability within the oceans and supporting all manners of life, whether on land or in the water. How exactly do you propose doing this over a (rough estimate) 6.25 million square kilometer region in the Gulf of Mexico, anyway? The cost of such a system just over the Gulf of Mexico to work effectively -- never mind the inherent problems to the "solution" -- would be well into the billions of dollars, if not trillions, and likely would not work even then. Do you have any idea of the amount of water that would need to be affected over just a 1 mile x 1 mile box in the Gulf, or the amount of pipes & mechanisms needed to effect this change over reasonable length scales? It's much, much more than you would think.
What about other regions of the globe, both in the Atlantic and not in the Atlantic? What about midlatitude weather systems? Many people depend upon the sea for their way of life, and by changing that you would be eliminating their way of life. I could go on, but as in most facets of life -- things are not as simple as they would seem.
| cyclonekiller |
| (Verified CFHC User) |
| Tue Nov 08 2005 02:12 AM |
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Re: Pascal's and Bernoulli's principle combined will weaken Hurricanes
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It would cost about 10 billion dollars to make the 1500 tunnels. They would cross the 50 mile width of the Gulfstream just SW of Key West and would protect the east coast of the USA. from Key West to Maine. The water can be regulated to any temperature between 70 and 90 degrees by opening or closing a gate on the discharge of the tunnel at the surface thus regulating SSTs. The power generated woud be enough for 22 million people and the tunnels would pay for themselves over time and nip away at the cause of global warming. It seems like a small price to pay instead of paying for 200 billion dollar plus storm nowadays let alone the lifes they take. If it would save one life it would be worth it to me. 70 degrees is what winter time temps. are anyways so no harm to environment would occur.
| Myles |
| (Weather Hobbyist) |
| Tue Nov 08 2005 01:23 PM |
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Re: Pascal's and Bernoulli's principle combined will weaken Hurricanes
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As Clark has pointed out, this is an environmentally fatal solution. You may be right that winter temps are in the 70's during the winter, but thousands or more species of marine life depend on the warm ocean waters of the gulf during the summer. Many fish and crustations, including the spiny lobster, migrate during the summer months from the warm, deep, waters of the GoM and Caribbean Sea to the now warm waters of the coast. Not only would you disrupt their migratory patterns, you would most likely change their whole environment. As the deep waters would be cooler, along with the suface temps.
This plan would probably induce thousands of extinctions throughout the Atlantic tropics and possibly throughout the mid-latitudes, as you are displacing where the naturally heated waters goes; From the gulf stream, up the US east coast and all the way to Europe; Great Britain to be more specific. If you stop this heat transfer you would more then likely(I put it at 90%) cause another ice age. Its happened before, the gulf stream shut down and temperatures plummeted.
Cyclonekiller, you seem to be missing the point. Lower temps will cause less hurricanes, or no hurricanes all; there's no question about it. It's all the other implications that make it unfeasible. Environmentally you would disrupt all of the at Atlantic ocean, if not the whole ocean, costing far more in money, and life, then any hurricane.
| cyclonekiller |
| (Verified CFHC User) |
| Wed Nov 09 2005 12:27 AM |
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Re: Pascal's and Bernoulli's principle combined will weaken Hurricanes
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No I think everyone is confused in that the tunnels are on all the time. That is not true. The deep water coming from below can be turned off after the storm has passed and turned on 5 days prior to the strom arriving to the East coast. I think the forcasting of Hurricanes 5 days out if they are going to hit are pretty good nowadays. If you cool the water down by the Keys and let the cooler water flow North there would be enough cooling to protect the whole East coast. Then you just simply close the gate and the cooling no longer occurs.However, the electrical generators don't stop running because the power to run them is near the surface seperate from the cooling phase of the operation.
| Myles |
| (Weather Hobbyist) |
| Wed Nov 09 2005 02:36 AM |
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Re: Pascal's and Bernoulli's principle combined will weaken Hurricanes
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Ok, now there is a few more problems. One, how much water do you think these pipes are going to be able to move and at what rate? Do you think that these tubes will 'pump' enough water to cause a significant change in temp? Since you obviously do, please post some numbers so that they can be verified. There is a lot of water moving and mixing from the Keys up the East Coast, its going to take A LOT of cool water to lower its temperature significantly.
Next, how will these electrical generator pumps create power if there is no water flowing through during the times that they are not operating? You say because they are close to the surface, but that doesn't explain where the generated electricity comes from. Please elaborate more.
I think this is intriguing, so please, continue with your ideas.
| cyclonekiller |
| (Verified CFHC User) |
| Wed Nov 09 2005 03:11 AM |
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Re: Pascal's and Bernoulli's principle combined will weaken Hurricanes
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First off they are not generator pumps they are hydroelectric generators at the surface where the Gulfstream current flows to the north past them at 6 to 7 mph thus turning the impellars and generating the power.
I calculate each tunnel will move 330,000,000 cubic feet of water per hour through them and exiting the tunnel at 5 mph. This should be enough water to generate near 50 megawatts of power per tunnel. With 1500 tunnels that is a staggering 75,000 mega watts of pure clean energy and would curb greenhouse gasses to some extent.
| Myles |
| (Weather Hobbyist) |
| Wed Nov 09 2005 05:03 AM |
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Re: Pascal's and Bernoulli's principle combined will weaken Hurricanes
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Umm...330 billion cubic feet per hour for one tube? You realize that is roughly 91,000 cubic feet per second? How large of a diameter do you think one of these things would be?
Next question....you have a figure of 5mph in there. Would this be the rate at which the water flows from the bottom to the surface, or which the gulf stream flows at ahead? However, what really matters, is what happens when you move enough water from the bottom of the ocean to the surface so that the gulf stream shuts down all together? You must realize that as the gulf stream moves north, it interacts with the cool Labrador current in the northern latitudes. This mix of warm and cool water currents causes the currents to behave in a certain fashion. What do you think is going to happen when the cool water you release into the gulf stream cools faster then normal up the east coast and interacts with the very cold water of the north? I'm not sure, but I certainly don’t want to test any theories.
| cyclonekiller |
| (Verified CFHC User) |
| Wed Nov 09 2005 10:48 AM |
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Re: Pascal's and Bernoulli's principle combined will weaken Hurricanes
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That is 330 million not billion. This is about 1/30 of the total flow of the Gulfstream. Also, since the flow is going in the same direction as the gulfstream we only have to account for a one mile per hour loss af speed of the water going through the tunnel due to frictional and verticle lift losses through the tunnel. Only 1/30 of total amout of the Gulf stream is flowing through the tunnels at any given time.There are more frictional losses in the Gulfstream due to ships traveling through it every day. So little effect if any to the Gulfstream will occur . This is well worth the investment if it can save lifes and 200 billon in damages per storm. The tunnels restore the balance to planets warming problem caused by greenhouse gasses and at the same time privide power to 22 million people and sealife loves them.
| Myles |
| (Weather Hobbyist) |
| Wed Nov 09 2005 12:28 PM |
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Re: Pascal's and Bernoulli's principle combined will weaken Hurricanes
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You are correct, it was late and counld't see. However, you're still not providing any data here, you spewing numbers with nothing to back them up. Math please! Plus, the major point I'm trying to make is that any disruption in the gulf stream could cuase far worse problems then we have now. Not friction, but temp differences could completely change how the gulf stream flows, or if it flows as all.
You also say that these fix the problem caused by global warming. This one thing is going fix all of global warming? There is a lot of stuff contributing to global warming, if it is even true. This only changes the temps of the water, there are still greenhouse gases from fossil fuels and other carbon emmisions, you think these pipes can rewind all that?
| cyclonekiller |
| (Verified CFHC User) |
| Wed Nov 09 2005 05:27 PM |
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Re: Pascal's and Bernoulli's principle combined will weaken Hurricanes
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Ok here is the math it is well established.
Pascals principle:
F1 is the force of the gulfstream exerts on the mouth of the tunnel at depth.
http://www.scientia.org/cadonline/Physics/fluids/pascal.ASP
Bernoulli's principle:
A negative pressure is created when the gulfstream ruhes pass the exit of the tunnel near the surface.
http://theory.uwinnipeg.ca/mod_tech/node68.html
All I did was combine both principles together to make the thing work with the tunnel.
| Unregistered User |
| (Unregistered) |
| Wed Nov 09 2005 07:04 PM |
Re: Pascal's and Bernoulli's principle combined will weaken Hurricanes
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This tunnel idea is very intresting but after thinking about the reprocussions, I reckon it wouid it would get very cold here in the uk. As we rely on the gulfs heat.
| cyclonekiller |
| (Verified CFHC User) |
| Wed Nov 09 2005 07:21 PM |
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Re: Pascal's and Bernoulli's principle combined will weaken Hurricanes
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no need to worry it is only on for five to seven days then the flow is cut off by closing a gate.
| Myles |
| (Weather Hobbyist) |
| Wed Nov 09 2005 09:07 PM |
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Re: Pascal's and Bernoulli's principle combined will weaken Hurricanes
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Thats the problem, for 5-7days you completly change how the gulf stream works. That could completly change it forever.
| Myles |
| (Weather Hobbyist) |
| Wed Nov 09 2005 09:10 PM |
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Re: Pascal's and Bernoulli's principle combined will weaken Hurricanes
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One more thing, I dont want to discredit your resources, but the bernoulli's principle page says...
Quote:
If you know that a hurricane is coming it is therefore better to open as many windows as possible, to equalize the pressure inside and out.
Thats not the brightest thing to do, that will get your roof blown off.
edit: the best thing to do if you know a hurricane is coming is to clean up, board up, then get the hell outta dodge
| cyclonekiller |
| (Verified CFHC User) |
| Wed Nov 09 2005 11:34 PM |
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Re: Pascal's and Bernoulli's principle combined will weaken Hurricanes
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The gulfstream won't stop flowing because the Earth would have to stop spinnig for that to happen.
The numbers can vary greatly for the tunnels depending on the size of them. Until I figure out the size of them I will not give any numbers yet. I'll let you do some numbers though. Estimate the tunnel opening at the surface to be 200 feet wide and 50 feet tall with the current coming out at 5 mph and see how many cubic feet of water per hour exit the tunnel. Then calculate how many MWs this can produce?
| Myles |
| (Weather Hobbyist) |
| Thu Nov 10 2005 01:10 AM |
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Re: Pascal's and Bernoulli's principle combined will weaken Hurricanes
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Quote:
The gulf stream won't stop flowing because the Earth would have to stop spinning for that to happen.
I hate to burst your bubble, but the gulf stream has shut down before. It caused a relatively short ice age. I say relatively because I believe it was in the hundreds or thousands of years, long for us, short compared to some ice ages. I don’t think the Earth has ever stopped spinning, though.
The spin of the Earth does cause currents to flow, but its not the only factor. Cold water sinking in the north by Greenland plays a major role in where the gulf stream goes. The pressure principle you've been talking about, its applied right there. The cold, sinking water causes a pressure difference. As it sinks, it pulls warm water up from the southern latitudes. You don’t think this might change if its no longer pulling warm water, but much cooler water?
| cyclonekiller |
| (Verified CFHC User) |
| Thu Nov 10 2005 01:16 AM |
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Re: Pascal's and Bernoulli's principle combined will weaken Hurricanes
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No the temperatue difference is not great enough for that to happen otherwise it would happen in our winter time when the temperatue of the water falls below 70 degrees.
| Myles |
| (Weather Hobbyist) |
| Thu Nov 10 2005 03:04 AM |
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Re: Pascal's and Bernoulli's principle combined will weaken Hurricanes
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You assume too much. First, colder artic water migrates south in the winter so that the temperature difference is relatively the same. Cooler water might be moving north from the equator, but at the same time extremely cold water is moving south from the artic.
Second, some temperature difference would shut it down. If water moving up from the equator became nearly as cold as the artic water, then the system would stop working. Now, that’s an extreme and I'm not saying that’s going to happen. What I'm saying is that a temperature change of 10 degrees could very well alter it significantly in direction and strength, a change that might not correct itself after the temp's are back to normal.
| cyclonekiller |
| (Verified CFHC User) |
| Thu Nov 10 2005 03:32 AM |
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Re: Pascal's and Bernoulli's principle combined will weaken Hurricanes
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The temperature change is what makes the exchange happen. It is similar to the tunnel if no differential in pressure occurs then no flow occurs. The same happens with temperature if no differential in temperature occurs then no exchange will happen. The temperature is well above that point even at 70 degrees.
| Myles |
| (Weather Hobbyist) |
| Thu Nov 10 2005 11:18 AM |
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Re: Pascal's and Bernoulli's principle combined will weaken Hurricanes
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Are you so sure? You know for a fact that in the middle of summer, when you release 70 degree waters up the east coast, that its not going to change the way that gulf stream flows? I'm not saying shut it down, I'm saying change it.
| Clark |
| (Meteorologist) |
| Thu Nov 10 2005 04:47 PM |
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Re: Pascal's and Bernoulli's principle combined will weaken Hurricanes
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How is this going to be large enough to effect a change over the entire Gulf of Mexico? It does nothing for a series of storms like we saw in 2004, either, or any of the other years where the East Coast was affected. A temporary change can be enough to affect a much larger change; not just that, but a cyclic change in ocean temperatures is going to wreak havoc with coral/subterrainean life/industry along the coast. Further, the Loop Current stretches over many hundreds of square miles, extends very deep into the ocean, and has eddies that spin off at random intervals around the Gulf of Mexico. How do you plan to account for that?
Plus, these principles have been around for hundreds of years; it's not like they are new concepts that no one has thought about before now. It's just not feasible. The better -- and safer -- course of action is to have people do what they are supposed to do when a storm threatens, i.e. prepare and leave. So many lives could have been saved from many storms in the past just by people doing what they should do during storms. I understand that not everyone has the means to escape on their own, but everyone does have the means to get to a shelter, hitch a ride with someone out of town, or at least take basic precautions to prepare themselves for a storm. It's not a question of awareness and response from authorities now; at some point, people have to take responsibility for their own actions. This proposal does not bring that about and quite frankly would likely cause more problems than it would solve.
| cyclonekiller |
| (Verified CFHC User) |
| Fri Nov 11 2005 02:52 AM |
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Re: Pascal's and Bernoulli's principle combined will weaken Hurricanes
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I would agree with you but the water temperature can be regulated to any temperature between 70 and 95 degrees just by opening or closing a gate on the discharge end at the top. The loop current in the gulf is created by the Yucatan and Caribbean currents joining together from the Caribbean Sea. If the tunnels were placed across the Yuctan channel the tunnels would cool all of the Gulf Of Mexico in about 14 days to any temperature. Sorry, I just don't see the harm in it if it can save lifes. When finished just close the gate and let temperatures stabalize again and wait for the next storm to come by then repeat the process.
| Convergence |
| (Weather Watcher) |
| Fri Nov 11 2005 03:29 AM |
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Re: Pascal's and Bernoulli's principle combined will weaken Hurricanes
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If you're only concerned with saving lives then come up with some actually feasible ideas for improving evacuations.
I don't think you are grasping the fact that this project of yours is essentially impossible at this point in time. It would be the largest engineering project in the history of the human race. Construction would take decades. Upkeep would cost trillions and require constant massive-scale maintenence. Let alone the environmental effects that you are completely ignoring.
You are also ignoring the point that hurricanes are a necessary part of the climate. They occur for a reason. Do you honestly think we should cut off such a large vent of tropical energy? Do you even have the faintest idea of what that would do? No, you don't, because no one knows.
Are you pulling these figures out of thin air? How can you arbitrarily declare that you can cool the entire Gulf 25 degrees in 14 days? I would like to see these "calculations".
| cyclonekiller |
| (Verified CFHC User) |
| Fri Nov 11 2005 04:08 AM |
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Re: Pascal's and Bernoulli's principle combined will weaken Hurricanes
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Calculate the cubic feet of water coming from a tunnel 200 feet wide 50 feet tall at five miles per hour then multiply that by 1500 tunnels.
| Clark |
| (Meteorologist) |
| Mon Nov 14 2005 06:31 AM |
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Re: Pascal's and Bernoulli's principle combined will weaken Hurricanes
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Quote:
The loop current in the gulf is created by the Yucatan and Caribbean currents joining together from the Caribbean Sea. If the tunnels were placed across the Yuctan channel the tunnels would cool all of the Gulf Of Mexico in about 14 days to any temperature. Sorry, I just don't see the harm in it if it can save lifes.
Therein lies the problems. One, water doesn't move that fast across the Gulf; researches have been tracking the discharge from rivers & cities due to Katrina's impact and its impacts could only be felt across part of the northern Gulf even a month after the fact, all regulated by the eddies. You aren't going to cool water across the entire basin that quickly with anything unless you spread it across the entire Gulf. That's just not feasible, even if it weren't asking for an ecological disaster.
Two, you don't know the repercussions of such an activity. Many people depend upon the Gulf for a living. Drastic and sudden changes to the ecosystem in the Gulf can disrupt that -- sometimes permanently. The result of the change, even if it were as simple as you believe it to be (which it isn't), could be as negative as a hurricane would be.
The best way to save lives and property is not to attempt to modify these storms by regulating their environment, a largely impossible and impractical task, but instead to educate people about their impacts, urge them to take precautions for any storm to protect both life and property, and adhere to stronger and smarter building codes, among other activities. It's much less costly, has no impact upon the environment or ecosystem of the region, and achieves the exact same goal.
| cyclonekiller |
| (Verified CFHC User) |
| Mon Nov 14 2005 11:26 AM |
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Re: Pascal's and Bernoulli's principle combined will weaken Hurricanes
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"Drastic and sudden changes to the ecosystem in the Gulf can disrupt that -- sometimes permanently. The result of the change, even if it were as simple as you believe it to be (which it isn't), could be as negative as a hurricane would be."
The temperature change is not that drastic since the difference of the temperature change is less than what occurs between summer and winter. Since the difference is less than what normally occurs between summer and winter the negative impact would be far less than another Katrina. And the cooling of the loop current in the Gulf would have a huge impact on any storm crossing its path.Here is the proof.
Link: Scroll down just a little to view the article. I've done my homework on this and the idea will work.
http://www.usatoday.com/weather/huricane/science/warmpool.htm
| Myles |
| (Weather Hobbyist) |
| Mon Nov 14 2005 09:40 PM |
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Re: Pascal's and Bernoulli's principle combined will weaken Hurricanes
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You seem to fail to relize that those summer and winter temps are just that, summer and winter. Animals behave differently during those time, do different things, are in different places. You cant just change the temp on them by 10-15 degrees then have it slowly change back, the animals would completely change what they are doing. You might cause a mass migration, or stop one. You certainly don't know. I certainly dont know. I doubt anyone really knows.
BTW, that link didn't provide any information that people here didn't already know. Cooling the waters would slow or stop hurricanes, yes its true, its all the other problems we are all woried about.
One more thing, thats a news article, not the best source for information. Look to scientific journals, university webpages, ect, for good quality information.
| cyclonekiller |
| (Verified CFHC User) |
| Mon Nov 14 2005 09:58 PM |
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Re: Pascal's and Bernoulli's principle combined will weaken Hurricanes
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I do take a look.
http://wind.mit.edu/~emanuel/home.html
| Myles |
| (Weather Hobbyist) |
| Mon Nov 14 2005 11:57 PM |
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Re: Pascal's and Bernoulli's principle combined will weaken Hurricanes
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Excellent, that appears to be a great source of info. However, we aren't discounting that lower water temps will lower hurricane intensity. We are saying that economically it will cost billions, if not more. Also that ecologically it would be disruptive at best, catastrophic at worst.
| cyclonekiller |
| (Verified CFHC User) |
| Tue Nov 15 2005 12:05 AM |
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Re: Pascal's and Bernoulli's principle combined will weaken Hurricanes
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I would agree If the tunnels cooled the SSTs lower than 70 degrees, cooler than that in the winter time. Otherwise no ill effects will happen except to the hurricane.
| Myles |
| (Weather Hobbyist) |
| Tue Nov 15 2005 12:11 AM |
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Re: Pascal's and Bernoulli's principle combined will weaken Hurricanes
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You think that lowering water temps to 75 degrees in the middle of summer would have no effect on marine species?
| cyclonekiller |
| (Verified CFHC User) |
| Tue Nov 15 2005 12:20 AM |
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Re: Pascal's and Bernoulli's principle combined will weaken Hurricanes
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NO
| Myles |
| (Weather Hobbyist) |
| Tue Nov 15 2005 12:24 AM |
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Re: Pascal's and Bernoulli's principle combined will weaken Hurricanes
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Then you need to do some more research. It certainly would have an effect. You must take into account what time of the year it is when these temperature changes take place. It would completely change an animals behavior. Most likely in a deadly way.
| cyclonekiller |
| (Verified CFHC User) |
| Tue Nov 15 2005 12:42 AM |
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Re: Pascal's and Bernoulli's principle combined will weaken Hurricanes
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I have and cold fronts can cool the water 15 degrees overnite in some areas. If the fish don't like it then they just swim away. What do you want to do, boil them to death with global warming?
| Myles |
| (Weather Hobbyist) |
| Tue Nov 15 2005 12:54 AM |
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Re: Pascal's and Bernoulli's principle combined will weaken Hurricanes
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Umm...the oceans aren't going to boil away, not unless we nuke the planet or the sun explodes.
Cold fronts may lower it 15 degrees, but that is the surface temp, underneath it takes a lot longer to cool that much. Also, what about the species that can't swim away, like coral? What happens to that? How about when the fish swim back and you release more cold water again? Then they swim away, then swim back. Then they probably do it again, and again, and again. That is until they are so stressed out from the temperature changes that they simply give up and die.
One more thing, your idea won't stop global warming. The energy is simply going somewhere else on the globe. It can't go away, goes against the laws of thermodynamics. The only way to stop global warming(if it even exsists, thats still debatable) is to remove heat from the earth. Sounds like another project for you.
| cyclonekiller |
| (Verified CFHC User) |
| Tue Nov 15 2005 01:12 AM |
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Re: Pascal's and Bernoulli's principle combined will weaken Hurricanes
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At least the fish will be getting good excersise swimming back and fourth all the time. CORALS! This is another problem Pascal's & Bernoulli's theory will solve with the tunnels.Corals are dying becuse the oceans are to hot already. To them it is as if we are boiling them alive.
| Myles |
| (Weather Hobbyist) |
| Tue Nov 15 2005 01:21 AM |
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Re: Pascal's and Bernoulli's principle combined will weaken Hurricanes
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I'm sure fish get plenty of exercise already without our help. But on a serious note, I don’t think corals are going to like it much more when the temperature drops 10 degrees in a couple of days then rebounds, and then does it again. They’ll go through the same stresses as any other animal. That will only help to kill them.
| cyclonekiller |
| (Verified CFHC User) |
| Tue Nov 15 2005 01:36 AM |
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Re: Pascal's and Bernoulli's principle combined will weaken Hurricanes
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The tunnels don't kill sea life. Hurricanes kill sealife.
| HomesteadGirl |
| (Registered User) |
| Tue Nov 15 2005 06:34 PM |
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Re: Pascal's and Bernoulli's principle combined will weaken Hurricanes
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What you are suggesting would most definetly disrupt sea life, all sea life. Before going hogwild on this idea, which is good in it's own theory, you may want to consult with a biologist, more specifically a marine biologist. I work for an environmental company, and have seen many different things get swept under the rug (so to speak) in the past only to come up and bite people in the you know where. How about draining the Everglades to eliminate the immense flooding after the Lake Okeechobee Hurricane in the 20's. Someone said "geez, we lost a lot of lives. Let's dig huge canals and drain the swamp and straighten out the Kissimmee River so farms and cities along the lake wont flood during the next hurricane." Sounded good at the time but now look what they're doing. The government is spending multiple billions of dollars on preserving the Everglades as best they can from what they had done back some 70+ years ago. They're trying to undo what they had done because not enough knowledge was available (or not used if it was) to determine the reprocussions of their actions. We have the knowledge available to us now. Not maybe the other bloggers here or myself personally, but there are people who would agree with us and back it up with facts. All that we're saying is have a consult with someone in the field and then try to determine if its feasable.
One more thing, if you will look at the dates of each hurricane/TC this year there was no more than 2-3 days in between the ending of one and the beginning of another with exception of maybe the first storm back in June and then this last month. We'd be opening up the floodgates quite often to eliminate a higher intensity hurricane. That would for sure put a huge strain on marine life. Just do some checking and then reassess your decision.
| Unregistered User |
| (Unregistered) |
| Wed Nov 16 2005 04:52 AM |
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Re: Pascal's and Bernoulli's principle combined will weaken Hurricanes
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A hurricane also puts unnessary strain on sea life and coral heads without global warming. We are making them more plentiful and stronger with global warming. So which one is the worse of the two?
| Unregistered User |
| (Unregistered) |
| Wed Nov 16 2005 05:24 PM |
Re: Pascal's and Bernoulli's principle combined will weaken Hurricanes
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Good discussion... I'm heading to Cancun this weekend and was concerned about TD27... while surfing for info, came across this page. Kudos to cyclonekiller for at least coming up with a creative idea. Great leaps in humankind start with ideas that start off sounding crazy. It takes investigation and research into these ideas until there is a feasible plan or it gets trashed. Asking for mathematics at this point is pretty useless IMHO, as long as the principles are sound, it's still worth talking about.
The others are right, we don't really know what the impact or cost of this would be... but a couple key points from a layman:
1) if the tunnels main purpose is to prevent or slow the development of land threatening hurricane, fine, then its only "on" for a few days out of the year, marine life and the gulf stream "should" be okay, but this won't generate siginificant or reliable electricity (hence your cost or energy savings formula is out), so I would just drop that argument altogether.
2) life will adapt to change as it always does... minor changes to temperature is not as threatening as it sounds... the little lobster is here today because it and its ancestors can adapt to the changes in the Caribbean including temperature change and hurricanes
shujat
| Unregistered User |
| (Unregistered) |
| Sat Jan 21 2006 10:14 PM |
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Re: Pascal's and Bernoulli's principle combined will weaken Hurricanes
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A very original idea.
If moving up his tunnel to air: one open-end above sea level, another open-end to vacuum cold space, maybe it will be better. Just sending the vapor to space by one tube.
Or a much large scaled Eiffel Tower to transfer the heat to space.
But the Earth is emitting heat to space any moment. The higher the temperature, the more heat lost. Seems we needn't to do anything.