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Wednesday - 5PM Update As expected TD #6 has been upgraded to Tropical Storm Frances at 5pm. Frances continues to move to the west at 14kts with sustained winds of 35 knots and pressure now down to 1005mb. NHC still anticipates a more west northwest track and eventually a northwest track - and still cautions that the tropical storm could take a more southerly track with west northwest rather than northwest motion in a day or two. Gradual intensification is anticipated. ED Original Article The strong tropical wave that departed the west coast of Africa a few days ago has developed into TD #6 this evening. The Tropical Depression is located well southwest of the Cape Verde Islands and is moving to the west at 15 to 20 knots. Maximum sustained wind is 25 knots and pressure is 1009mb. TD #6 should move on a west northwesterly course over the next couple of days while slowly growing in intensity. The tropical cyclone should become Tropical Storm Frances on Wednesday. The long range NHC forecast takes the storm on a more northwesterly course, however there is still some doubt about this motion since the mid Atlantic trough will not create a significant weakness in the mid Atlantic ridge located south of the trough. The forward motion is on the increase, but it should be slower than the forward motion that was noted with some of the tropical waves earlier this season Plenty of time to watch this system evolve - and we will. ED General Links NRL Monterey Marine Meteorology Division Forecast Track of Active Systems (Good Forecast Track Graphic and Satellite Photos) Check the Storm Forum from time to time for comments on any new developing system. Follow worldwide SST evolution here: Global SST Animation NASA GHCC Interactive Satellite images at: North Atlantic Visible (Daytime Only), Infrared, Water Vapor LSU Sat images Some forecast models: NGM, AVN, MRF, ETA ECMWF AVN, CMC, GFDL, JMA, NOGAPS, UKMET DoD Weather Models (NOGAPS, AVN, MRF) Multi-model plots from WREL Other commentary at Independentwx.com, Robert Lightbown/Crown Weather Tropical Update Accuweather's Joe Bastardi (now subcriber only unfortunately), Hurricane Alley North Atlantic Page, Cyclomax (Rich B.), Hurricane City , mpittweather , Gary Gray's Millennium Weather, storm2k, Barometer Bob's Hurricane Hollow, Snonut, Even more on the links page. |
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I don't think this storm is going to be a fish like everyone is forecasting. It will have to fight some major shear down the road to become a major cane. http://www.hardcoreweather.com |
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This system has what other systems so far this year have lacked--a slower speed and an eastward extending trough, both of which will ensure that the winds will wrap around fairly well to the south |
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Hard to say at this point. But, I don't think it will hit Florida. I could be going out on a limb. MaryAnn |
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TD6 continues to track just north of west at around 275 degrees with increased forward speed. My thinking remains that it will continue to slowly develop and follow a track for the next three days that will be significantly further south and west than the official track. This would be in line with the tendency so far this season for waves to develop slowly and move rapidly west. Not looking as good on IR this morning as when as I went to bed last nite. Will it be a TS today? The visibles should tell a lot. Hurric |
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TD6 looks more like an open wave this morning if there is a real center looks to be 12N traveling west at 280 degrees,,,, due west 270 degrees, if it doesn't fall apart may just be an east coast event. |
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Is it possible that instead of going north the top part of TD6 pulls north and the bottom part continues west. All during the slow development there has been a dual sort of center (elongated?) and I would think it might be more likely that it will stuggle for a bit and the lower half may end up going further west than previously predicted by the models. Will see.. has been pretty to watch but more complicated than it looks. |
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The convection may be elongated but then it wouldn't have been a TD if the NHC didn't think it was TD material. We'll see at 11 but this may just be 2 steps back and one step foward, if it does get down-graded to a tropical wave. |
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System doesn't look all that impressive at the moment... as stated on an earlier post, and probably most would agree, the weaker the system, and longer time it takes to develop, the more west it will go... still to early to call.... However, there is always the possibility that the system never meets its intensity forecasts.... until much later in the track... which of course would make for an interesting development... and of course, it may not develop at all... there is NOTHING certain about tropical systems.... except of course everyone's speculation on where they are going to go, and how strong they will become... mother nature just does not listen to us very much does she... Let me add that in my opinion I do believe this system will develop and become a hurricane.... I think it has too much going for it not to become one... its does have rather a large circulation and moving at a nice speed for development.... still not sure where it will end up... and I'm still sticking to my 50/50 chance for it to spin or hit the islands.... of course this will change over time... |
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Agree with above comments about the system not looking too healthy at the moment but that is normal in weak systems those pulsings up and down.What is interesting is that it is moving west 275 so I guess that by 11 AM the nhc will have to adjust a little bit to the left the track. |
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With Dvorak's at 2.5/2.5 and a fairly impressive satellite loop, I pretty much think we have Frances at 11:00. |
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Believe it or not, I think she gets named at 11 am. Looks pretty good on visable sat, heading almost due west. 2.5 on the T numbers, noname on NRL, gotta believe she's coming out to play. |
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Well, She better get named now! LOL. Great minds do think alike. |
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Frances she shall be. Numerical models now leaning to more of a stairstep path for Frances with a turn back to the west well before the islands, a few even forcing her to the south a little at 5 days. Islands need to stay alert for a surprise, the battle of the models for the hearts and minds of the NHC forecasters has started.......I see a more westward path myself. 20N 60W is possible, and storms that come in under that mark can spell trouble for the mainland down the road. |
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Guess you just lost your cigar. First of all I would argue that it WAS a TS at 11:00. HF & I have said this before, but now I'm taking action. You can post without becoming a registered member, but if you post anonymously, it will be deleted. Simply ID yourself in some way |
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No - still a depression at 11 am. NHC notes possibility of more westward movement after 120 hours, but of course too early to call. Odd that NRL lists it as noname but it's a depression. -Brad |
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Tropical Depression Six Advisory Number 3 Statement as of 11:00 am EDT on August 25, 2004 ...Tropical depression continuing westward with little change in strength...no immediate threat to land... at 11 am EDT...1500z...the center of Tropical Depression Six was located near latitude 11.4 north...longitude 39.1 west or about 1515 miles...2440 km...east of the Lesser Antilles. The depression is moving toward the west near 17 mph...28 km/hr... and this general motion is expected to continue for the next 24 hours. Maximum sustained winds are near 35 mph... 55 km/hr...with higher gusts. Some strengthening is forecast during the next 24 hours... and the depression could become a tropical storm later today or Thursday. Estimated minimum central pressure is 1008 mb...29.77 inches. Repeating the 11 am EDT position...11.4 N... 39.1 W. Movement toward...west near 17 mph. Maximum sustained winds... 35 mph. Minimum central pressure...1008 mb. The next advisory will be issued by the National Hurricane Center at 5 PM EDT. Forecaster BevenTropical Depression Six Discussion Number 3 Statement as of 11:00 am EDT on August 25, 2004 Tropical Depression Six is looking a little ragged this morning. While still organized into bands...the associated convection has decreased significantly in depth and coverage since sunrise. The reason for this is not clear...although the system may be ingesting some of the dry air seen nearby in water vapor imagery. Satellite intensity estimates are 35 kt from SAB...30 kt from TAFB...and 25 kt from AFWA. The initial intensity remains 30 kt. The initial motion is now 275/15. The cyclone is currently south of a subtropical ridge. Large-scale models indicate that a mid/ upper-level level low currently seen in water vapor imagery just southeast of Nova Scotia will dive southeastward and weaken the ridge from 48-96 hr and then lift out to the northeast. If this verifies...it would allow the tropical depression to turn northwestward after 24-36 hr...and then possibly turning more westward by 120 hr as the ridge rebuilds to the north. The dynamical models generally agree with this scenario. However...the GFS has shifted its track considerably to the south and west of the GFDL...UKMET...and NOGAPS. The official forecast track also shifts to the left of the previous track...but not as far as the GFS. The new track is along the western edge of the other dynamical models in best agreement with the GFDL and the consensus models. Other than the current ragged appearance...conditions generally apepar favorable for the cyclone to intensify for the first 72-96 hr. The intensity forecast will call for slow strengthening for the first 48 hr or so in agreement with the current organization and trends...then call for faster development as the system nears hurricane strength. After 72-96 hr...if the cyclone tracks as far north as forecast...it may encounter westerly shear to the north of the upper-level ridge forecast to lie east-west along 18-19n. That would limit strengthening as indicated in the forecast. An alternate scenario would be if the cyclone stays south of the ridge axis...which would allow greater strengthening than currently forecast. Forecaster Beven forecast positions and Max winds initial 25/1500z 11.4n 39.1w 30 kt 12hr VT 26/0000z 11.8n 41.3w 35 kt 24hr VT 26/1200z 12.6n 43.7w 40 kt 36hr VT 27/0000z 13.5n 45.6w 45 kt 48hr VT 27/1200z 14.5n 47.2w 50 kt 72hr VT 28/1200z 16.5n 49.5w 65 kt 96hr VT 29/1200z 18.5n 52.0w 75 kt 120hr VT 30/1200z 20.5n 55.0w 75 kt http://www.hardcoreweather.com |
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Still TD6, still think they are looking too far north at 3-5 days. |
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watch the area East of Florida. Metnioned in the 11:30 TWO and definite spin on visible from Nexrad. Coup for Joe B. if verifies. AN AREA OF CLOUDINESS AND SHOWERS NEAR THE SOUTHEASTERN COAST OF THE UNITED STATES IS ASSOCIATED WITH A WEAK LOW PRESSURE AREA ALONG AN OLD FRONTAL SYSTEM. SURFACE OBSERVATIONS INDICATE THAT PRESSURES ARE HIGH IN THE AREA AND DEVELOPMENT...IF ANY...SHOULD BE SLOW TO OCCUR. |
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Agree Caneman, coup for JB. Looks like a LLC is trying to form. Wish they'd reposition Floater 2 over it. The trof is now leaving the scene and the high to the north is definitely adding some spin. Gotta check some buoy readings for pressure drops. |
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appears to be getting better organized on visible imagery with a well-defined circulation center and rotation, and outflow to the west looking more like a TS with each passing hour as for the system off of Florida, could develop by the end of the week, as upper winds appear to be in the process of developing an anticyclone aloft wide view of both |
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TD 6 sure looks like Frances to me. Its banding features look like a maturing storm, not a TD. Regarding that system to the east of Florida - where do you think the center is located? It looks like it is more to the south of and not off of Jxville. |
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http://www.ndbc.noaa.gov/Maps/Florida.shtml |
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the st augustine one was displaced after or just before Charlie..the 2o mile an d120 mile are up and running |
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A close in homegrown area of disturbed weather has hung out near 30, 80 for last couple days along old frontal line. This type of weather lingering over warm waters, as mentioned by many, always needs to be monitored for development this time of year. Not sure it would be a coup for anyone unless they are forecasting a cane moving up east coast and impacting areas on the way. It does look today like something is starting to spinup. I am looking at the twist near in clouds around 28.5, 79. I wish I knew if that spin is the "Vortex Max" mentioned in the Melbourne NWS discussion. It looks likely to track off to the NE and the open Atlantic. Hope it attains TD status on the way out giving us something else to track. Hurric |
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Agree Joepub...models are something like 50/50 with ît: http://www.hurricanealley.net/Storms/06LALLMDL.html |
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You sure wouldn't think that anything tropical was forming near Florida. I was out about 25 miles in the Atlantic out of Port Canaveral yesterday and there was not a breeze or a wave to be found. I thought I was on a lake. As to TD6, that has got to be the best looking tropical depression I have ever seen. And, not to compare tracks, but Andrew started as a depression about where Frances is, dropped to a wave, moved northwest above the islands and then flattened out to move due west into Florida. That's a long, long way off, and I'm NOT saying it's going to follow Andrew, just saying to look at the analogies and that if models are saying it may not be a fishspinner, we need to watch it. andrew was never operationally declassified from tropical storm, FYI. but yeah, that's pretty much the track. -HF |
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What's the latest forward speed on TD6? Just curious if this one is a mover like all the others or the future Frances is ambling along? |
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That post was by me - I forgot to log in. Sorry! |
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They had it heading 275 @ 15 in the 11:00am discussion. NRL has changed the name to Frances on the home site. Steve |
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JB's giving increasing attention to the spin off Fla...mentioning that it is in the same area where Hurricane Carol developed 50 years earlier. Also three of the last four runs of the GFS have soon-to-be Frances making US landfall, the last run takes it into the Gulf. The weaker it stays, the more of a threat it becomes to the US east coast. |
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http://www.nrlmry.navy.mil/htdocs_dyn/th...b-113N-369W.jpg Everything that you wanted to know about Frances http://hardcoreweather.com/showthread.php?t=536 |
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First of all this storm is moving around 15 to 18 mph to the west. It has been on a track to the west or slightly north of west for the last 15 degrees. Since 25 west. It has moved very little north since then. The Gfs has shifted left every run since the 00z in now shows it skiming the northern leewards. What else is wrong with the gfs is it is moving at around 18 mph this thing is not going to slow down as much as the Gfs says. I say by tomarrow afternoon it will be around 45 maybe 46 west. This could just as easly fellow the southern hurricane models with this. So this is my thinking it should not get pass 12 north intill 11pm tonight. Then should not pass 15 north intill nearing 60 west. I expect a cat1 hurricane with in the next 48 to 60 hours. NOTE TO ANON. You can choose to go back and add your name to this post or it will be deleted by 6:00 today. |
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Tropical Storm Frances Advisory Number 4 Statement as of 5:00 PM EDT on August 25, 2004 ...Tropical Depression Six becomes Tropical Storm Frances...no immediate threat to land... at 5 PM EDT...2100z...the center of Tropical Storm Frances was located near latitude 11.6 north...longitude 40.5 west or about 1420 miles...2285 km...east of the Lesser Antilles. Frances is moving toward the west near 17 mph...28 km/hr...and this general motion is expected to continue for the next 24 hours. Maximum sustained winds have increased to near 40 mph... 65 km/hr...with higher gusts. Some additional strengthening is forecast during the next 24 hours. Tropical storm force winds extend outward up to 45 miles...75 km from the center. Estimated minimum central pressure is 1005 mb...29.68 inches. Repeating the 5 PM EDT position...11.6 N... 40.5 W. Movement toward...west near 17 mph. Maximum sustained winds... 40 mph. Minimum central pressure...1005 mb. The next advisory will be issued by the National Hurricane Center at 11 PM EDT. Forecaster Beven don't post a straight ripped discussion or advisory package without commenting on it in some way. there are already links to this information on the board. hardcore you do post a lot, why don't you go ahead and register, man? http://www.hardcoreweather.com |
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All those that called Frances a fish will please dunk your head in the nearest aquariam. It starting to sound a little like Andrew track and that's not good. I know it's a long way out but I personally don't see anything to knock her out of the picture. Since the east coast trough has pulled west for now. The door is more opened for now but that can change in the "world of weather". |
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Post deleted by LI Phil |
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It has been mentioned before, but it bears repeating. Anonymous posts will no longer be accepted. You do not have to register, simply ID yourself in some way. Thank you. More importantly, JB has again posted today and what he has to say about Frances is not good. He's now calling for a CAT III (perhaps) midway between Hispaniola and Bermuda by next Tuesday or Wednesday. I smell Hattaras. |
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Quote: Wow why bash me into the ground! >>> Not bashing you. Every anon will be treated equally. Thank you very much for IDing yourself. Good post by the way. |
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Andrew track not Andrew strength. That strength nobody wants. No doubt it's way to far to say it will hit any land but for those that jump the gun on calling a wave a fish will soon need to dunk there head in the ocean and if it is a fish i'll go dunk my head in the ocean. |
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Quote: I'm guessing West Palm Beach to Charleston. This guess is bases on the system heading either due West or WNW after the NW component is gone. |
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Yeah, I'm inclined to agree that an east coast hit is possible with this one. I've stated before that the West Palm Beach area and along the Gold coast north of Miami has been spared major hurricanes now since it got densely populated. Gotta watch the Frances and the wave train carefully, paticularly around Labor Day......BBBBRRRRRRRRRRR!!! |
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what phil said earlier about anons.. yeah, just add a name if you don't want to register. the moderator/admin guys can tell who you are, but nobody else here can. it's an accountability thing... when the board gets active the people who screw it up are usually unregistered anons, trying to piss everybody off. if people ID themselves it's unlikely john and mike in admin will pull the unregistered posting option in those times. sucks to cut people off, but the benefit is worth it. in the meanwhile it's up to the moderators to keep things from getting messy. playing nanny really sucks, so just add a name to your post and there's no problem at all. gotta respond to caneman.. it's way the hell out there, but that's a risky take, even for a gut feeling. that section of coastline dodges the bullet more than any other. have more to say later. HF 2150z25august |
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Excellent observation " The Gfs has shifted left every run since the 00z in now shows it skiming the northern leewards. What else is wrong with the gfs is it is moving at around 18 mph this thing is not going to slow down as much as the Gfs says. " Just 2 days ago everyone was calling it a fish.. now seems the models are 50/50 on everything and no one is sure anymore. Which proves the point that you can't decide where something is going to be while its wallowing over the Cape Verde Islands. |
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"WHICH WOULD ALLOW GREATER STRENGTHENING THAN CURRENTLY FORECAST" ****** Very ominous wording if you ask me in the discussion. Not saying it would be of Andrew intensity.. not going there. No reason to at this point (very far out) but just saying.. ominous wording added in at the end of the discussion. |
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On the Water Vapor Loop the system east of FL still looks like an upper level low is above or just to the west of it (pulling dry air south along the GA coast). Development looks marginal at best for the time being. |
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I noticed the Water Vapor Loop is showing some strong westerly shear across the Carribean Sea to the west of Frances. Will this be any sort of influence on Frances in the days ahead as it approaches the general vacinity of the Northern Leeward Islands ? |
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I'm sure it will affect TD#6, but probably not enough to inhibit devlopment, to the point were it starts to weaken. But this is all based on the current forecast track, nothing is certain. |
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there are three scenarios for this as far as I am concerned: 1) the shear will persist and likely push the storm to the north, towards the Southeast with a similar track to Fran in 1996--note how it turned north near the islands, then turned back to the west 2)slightly less likely, the shear will move westward at the same rate as Frances, and will enhance the outflow and allow it to move west and intensify, with a track similar or to the south of Allen in 1980, but again, nowhere near the intensity. 3) least likely (right now, anyways) is that the shear will blow this system apart much like it did to TD2 and Earl in the eastern Caribbean |
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I've been looking at the models and the the GFS seems to be taking this hurricane to the direction of Galveston or a little more south. The GFS seems to be on target this year and works well with systems in the general area of where Tropical Storm Frances is, (ex. Andrew). If Tropical Storm Frances does remain south of the ridge axis, it will continue, westward, and maybe inflict an area on the Gulf States as something weak or maybe mainly because of the shear in the carabiean area. That's my scenario for this storm. |
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>>> the shear will blow this system apart much like it did to TD2 Didn't TD2 eventually become Bonnie? Granted, the soon to be patented HF "rabbit voodoo hex" [tm HF] went to work on it, but it did survive to become a named entity. So, that makes it 6 for 6...TD's becoming TS's. To my thinking, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but a classified system which becomes an open wave but then regains classified status, is still a classified system. I'm actually confused, because the Unisys lists TD2 AND Bonnie, as though they are separate systems. That doesn't make any sense...so I'll pose it to the board...Are TD2, the remnants of which became Bonnie, two separate and distinct systems or are they, for argument's sake, one in the same? I'm being serious here. Here is how Unisys calculates this storm. Is it proper, per se, to consider these as two distinct and separate systems, or should TD2 and Bonnie be considered to be one system, even with the several-day classification lag? |
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Well Phil... think Unisys for now is correct. There was a TD2. Remnants of TD2 developed into Bonnie. Remnants or TD2.. remants means pieces of... Imagine at the end of the season the NHC will write the official book on this one... NOW... back to the topic Think in the morning the track will be pulled more to the left. Read what SNONUT wrote this evening. He seems to feel what many others are also saying. Someone ..somewhere on the East Coast might really have to deal with this.. possibly even the islands. Bill Kamal on the news here tonight spoke of all interests in the Turks and Virigin Islands paying close attn to this storm. Sure 11pm team will say the same. Looking like a Labor Day Cane right now. |
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I agree with you partially, in physical terms they are the same storm but then in techinal terms, which the Unisys is in to, it isn't. If a depression forms but then dies it becomes a totally different system, it's like it's re-born. |
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They came out with the 11pm discussion very early tonight - I'm reading it now - and the intensity is still 35kt. Should make for some interesting results to the first track/intensity forecast of the storm! The 120hr position is ever-so-slightly to the left of the previous position, being just 1 degree further west than before (but no further north). The official track is still well left of the UKMET and well right of the GFS, agreeing with most of the other models and with most previous thinking. See no reason to disagree except to maybe nudge the track a bit further to the left...but not too much, maybe a degree or so. Intensity forecast...no qualms there either. Wish I had more to add, but classes have begun here once again and those late night hours of a week or two ago have come and gone, unfortunately. |
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quick note on td2/bonnie: td 6/7 last year is an example of a similar occurrence.. not as much lag time between closed systems this time, nor did the system become quite as indistinct.. but you may have noticed the system we're currently on, frances.. was td 6. very simple logic follows.. the nhc has operationally regarded bonnie as a td 2 reincarnation. frances is tending a bit left of my previous thought track. i've been on to this no-quick-out-recurvature line for a few days now, finally there's enough model support that the official line is just that.. but of course there's always a chance frances can still find some bizarre way to recurve. but i'm not going with that. speed up the official, have a more pronounced stair step and an intensity cough in the track for the weekend.. and you have my philosophy.. frances will turn nw and slow for a time in response to the ridge weakness, miss the islands, negotiate some shear, and then turn left and probably accelerate westward next week. i keep hearing references to andrew.. can only blink at that. i'm thinking more of a floyd situation, because i don't expect there to be enough ridge near the east coast late next week for frances to come barreling across florida. always safer to bet on wilmington or morehead city north carolina.. something like that. really no idea at this point, because gfs is what i'm going by and i know gfs takes a few days to feel out the pattern and get the wavelengths/speed/amplitudes close enough to make educated guesses on. right now it's still a shot in the dark.. at a target that is for now distant. timetable for arrival, if it makes it across.. is around saturday the 4th. this would fairly well teleconnect with typhoon chaba smacking japan in a couple days time. closer in to home, getting a better feel for the disturbance off the southeast coast. it isn't in a rush to develop, but won't be going much of anywhere until the weekend.. time is still on it's side. low level convergence is too weak to jam a low together, it's going to live or die on whether a convective flare can get an embryonic center started. there is decent ridging aloft.. mid/upper low peeling away into the gulf is enhancing it for now. disturbed weather also trying to focus away east near bermuda.. but i'm going to stick with the area east of jacksonville, near 80w. give or take 50 miles i think that's the place. new wave skipping merrily off the african coast, and gfs is showing some development by early next week on it.. so will stay appraised. minor feature.. weak trough near 26/52 sliding westward... nearing the mid oceanic trough. a convective burst could modify this small feature in a heartbeat.. but very low potential. that's the line for now. frances is getting retired, one way or another... those folks may have jinxed us. HF 0251z26august |
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I just don't see this storm getting that far north that quickly. I certainly am I on the side of the GFS at this point. That trough is going to have look much better for me to believe it's going to effect Frances that much. They are obviously thinking that the ridge breakdown is what will have the effect on the system, and not the trough so much. Still, I am not buying that much of a move to north right now. |
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A small cdo has formed over the last few hours. With perfect outflow on the west,southwest,northwestern quads. While the storm still has only poor to fair outflow on the eastern quad. Also to note is a small pin point hole forming around 12.3/42 at this hour moving west with a every so slightly north of west. Nrl information also sees kind of a eye like future but is not closed as of this moment. One thing is remember what a storm named Isabel, did once it got loose of the trough last year. What happen is it went under a ridge of high pressure. Then the eastern quad of the storm had the back side of the trough to make a nice outflow channel. This also happen with Floyd and Andrew with many other big storm in the past. If the trough catchs this system in looses it. Then watch out. If the trough doe's not catch it then this system will move more westward at around 18 to 20 mph. Just to fast for it to get to strong that fast. In would likely not have the nearly the enviroment to bomb as if the trough catchs it. The last few runs of the gfs has been for more westward. So we will see what happens. |
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Frances now has a T-number of 3.0/3.0. |
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It is significant that each New Run of the global models has a forecast track farther to the west...so if this trend continues...there will be interesting days ahead. |
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Quote: I've posted in other boards my concern is that Florida use to be visited by both minor and majors far more frequently than is has in the past 30 years and can't help to wonder if we're not getting back to that pattern. The 5:30 TWO looks mighty ominous. And furthers more and more models have trended left. What is the old saying - the trend is your friend? 5 day forecast has it at 20-60 and if that bears out, it would seem someone is apt to get hit with the type of ridge that is forecast to build in. |
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Just yesterday the models had Frances going to Galveston area, now where taking a more northerly track as was excepted. My thoughts on this system, is that it will hit the carolinas (most likely outer banks area) as a CAT.2 and take it self up to the northeast and impacting LI as a Tropical Storm or Tropical Depression. But this track could change depending on when the next cold front comes through. The other system, I'm not so sure about. As Hank Frank said before, it all matters on how it can do in the day if it wants to survive. This may become another system but I'm to sure, my confindence is low. |
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Looking at her this morning.. she's not only developing a cdo.. but shes developing banding as in an eye wall. IF Frances was a term paper she'd be called filled with well thought out ideas, well developed and excellent grammar usage. Climbing enough that the shear should affect her less and think shear is forecast to lessen.. would like to know if that is true. And, you are right..sometimes the trough grabs it but just can't hold on. My question is ..is there a trough that strong to grab her. Right now.. she looks pretty amazing out there all alone in the Atlantic. Lifting a drop in latitude but for how long? Keep watching...enjoy watching from a distance right now because she's going to get closer..that much is for sure. |
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I think Unisys is wrong, since Tropical Storm Bonnie was not a new tropical depression (that is, we had tropical depression 3 become Charley and 4 become Danielle etc.). If Tropical Storm Bonnie was a different entity from TD2, it would've taken up a slot as TD3 and subsequent storms should be TD4 --> Charley, etc. Sometimes the NHC will make two separate entities from the same wave such as last year with TD6 and TD7. ~David |
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Yes, it does look good this morning. I don't really think it will happen today, but wouldn't be surprised to see an eye peeking out from under the cover of the CDO. I am still leaning towards a path left of the official track. Somewhere from St. Croix on the south to some place to the left of the 20n, 60w corner. A few more days to enjoy before things are looking more serious for someone along the way. For now, it's models to the left, models to the right, and your guess is as good as mine. Hurric |
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Think the Galveston Run can now be thrown out. Still far out, yes... your guess is as good as mine. Maybe a blend of Allen and Fran? Not going that far west but not recurving so much either |
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Anybody got any links to tracking models? Hurricane Alley hasn't been updated since yesterday. Thanks. |
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This is one of my favorites: Mid-Atlantic Wx.com Larry |
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Quote: I like this one wunderground models Hardcore, please use the URL, do not post the image. Thanks. Fran thread http://hardcoreweather.com/showthread.php?t=536 |
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The GFS is now putting the system to hit Georgia, but I think this is the correct genral path, just more to the north. Also CLIPPER as seems to be giving that same genral path. So both dynamical and statiscal models are in agreement, as Hurric said before, I think we should throw out the Galveston run but I did feel that if the system devloped when it was in that area it would have taken that path, which the GFS had shown. |
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you dont throw out any path more then 5 days out, models will continue to change. Never throw out anything more then that many days |
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I do agree with you, thankyou. Models are the only way to aide us on our forecasts, besides other people, so for now I follow the crowd. |
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TS Frances remains at this category for the 11:00 update. A lot of good posts, so I'll be brief. Frances has excellent satellite signature, with pretty strong convection...and an eye...which would seem to put her at very close to Hurricane strength...would think that she will be at 5:00. She's over very warm water and in a low-shear environment, so it's not hard to argue that further strengthening will occur. Way way to early to tell where she'll go, but this has the classic CV Hattaras look to it. All depends upon how deep and how strong the trof gets, and then whether she can duck under the developing ridge further west. This could be a huge headache for the entire East Coast late next week into the holiday weekend. I would not discount this becoming a major cane as it takes aim at the coast... Cheers, LI Phil |
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http://www.ssd.noaa.gov/PS/TROP/DATA/RT/float-vis-loop.html Looking good, I guess I'm seeing a more Northerly component to it's Westerly movement. So what do you think the cut off is for it to be a fish? 15N 55W ?? |
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Regarding the following quote from the discussion I would say that since one of the main steering features for the future track relies upon a low coming down from Canada then I would give much weight to the Canadian's evaluation of the current situation... more than maybe at other times. Agree also that the low isn't going to dig much and am worried about the ridge rebuilding. "THE CANADIAN MODELS TAKE THE CYCLONE MORE WEST-NORTHWESTWARD AND EVEN WESTWARD. THE MAIN DIFFERENCES LIE IN HOW MUCH EROSION OF THE SUBTROPICAL RIDGE OCCURS NORTH OF FRANCES IN 36-72 HOURS AS A LARGE EXTRATROPICAL LOW OFF THE CANADIAN MARITIMES DIGS SOUTHWARD. THE UKMET AND NOGAPS MODEL SHOW MORE EROSION OF THE RIDGE...WHILE THE GFS...GFDL...AND CANADIAN MODELS LIFT OUT THE UPPER-LOW MORE QUICKLY...WHICH ALLOWS THE RIDGE TO BUILD BACK WESTWARD TO THE NORTH OF THE CYCLONE AFTER 72 HOURS. THE PAST 24 HOUR TREND IN WATER VAPOR IMAGERY SUGGESTS THAT THE UPPER-LOW HAS PROBABLY PUSHED ABOUT AS FAR SOUTH AS IT CAN...WHICH WOULD SUPPORT THE GFS-GFDL-CANADIAN SCENARIO OF A MORE WESTWARD TRACK BY 96 HOURS" |
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Anyone have any thoughts about the frontal boundary sitting off of the Carolina coast. I am sitting here in Charleston watching rain continue to push onshore. Could a low form in this location? Given some of the long-term forecast (as questionable as they are) for Frances, a double whammy for the carolinas could happen. I have some friends in the McClellenville and Georgetown areas (north of Charleston) where Charley hit the second time that are still cleaning up debris. I'm sure that they would rather not have another hit this year. Hmm...feels like hurricane weather. Any thoughts? |
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I've been watching it, too. My guess is that it's not going anywhere. |
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I don't get a good feeling about this storm. It's really a gut instinct, but I'm seeing a lot of the same things that I did with Isabel last year, down to the northerly jog that would put it just north of the islands. The GFS handled that storm very well last year, so it will be interested to see how this plays out. I don't think the intensity will be anything like that, but you-never-know with these CV storms. Class time, so I've got to run...more later, perhaps. |
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Looks like I was a bit too hasty myself with the WNW track; Frances's track has been consistently left of the forecast. If that bias continues, it may clip the NE Antilles in a few days. Frances has a lot going for it on its current track. There are warm SST anomalies of about 0.5 C along its forecast path, and north of the Antilles the SSTs will be especially favorable, 29 C <. Its rather small size--which seems to be typical of storms this year--is another plus, as it allows for rapid changes in intensity (up *or* down, it should be noted). So for now, I have to agree with the Floyd or Isabel analogue crowd, though I'm still not going so far as to expect landfall on the East Coast at this stage of the game. |
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Frances is producing an excellent outflow boundary, which is helping to push some of the dry air away. Right now that seems about the only thing to inhibit strengthening. That's a lot of dry air. |
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What's the satilite's cutoff for coloring all that air in brown, in terms of humidity? But that loop is a really good picture of how good it's outflow is, very wispy clouds mark the areas of good outflow. Actcually, I orbserved that outflow when I was following supertyphoon chaba. It's the combo of some shear and excellent outflow that produces very strong tropical cyclones. |
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Something could form but it is right now unlikely. Surface pressure is high, and the frontal boundary is starting to weaken, but then again you have more cold fronts on the way for some additional lifting, so we'll see then. But for right now looks the rain will continue to push on-shore and end during the night and then start back up again. I would be more concerned with Frances. |
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I wouldn't be so quick to write this one off. JB just did a midday missive on this system...to paraphrase... --------------------- Current upward pulse of convection may be for real, and that is what is necessary to begin development. Some evidence a center may start to organize 50 miles east of Charleston. We won't know until tonight, because the convection must get going and stay organized. IF it does so, the outflow forecast is excellent, and it should stay over the warm water and continue to strengthen...At the very least, the potential for torrential rains exists for NC and the rest of the East Coast, with the additional potential for a strike from Frances the following weekend. --------------------------- JB's been wrong more than he's been right this year, but when he's been right, he's been dead on. I think anyone with interests in the Carolinas, especially the OB, had better keep an eye on this one. First Alex, then Charley, possibly another tropical (subtropical) storm, then possibly Frances...I was actually planning an Outer Banks vacation in September...I hope it's still there. |
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LT Phil..... You forgot BONNIE this year also ... killed three in tornado near Wilmington from the remants as it passed over |
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Todd, Sorry...it wasn't intentional. BTW, it's "LI" (as in Long Island) Phil, not Lieutenant. Don't feel bad, though, I've also been called Lil Phil too. BTW, Dvorak's up to 4.0/4.0, so we now have a hurricane on our hands. |
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http://hadar.cira.colostate.edu/ramsdis/online/Lasttrpg8wvL.html shows your dry air pocket well.. shes doing pretty good in there like a quaterback in the pocket |
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This system off of the carolinas is right now ill-defined but in the loops it almost looks like it's almost converging at lower levels. If this system gets going it could become quite strong, JB might be right on this one. |
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Here's the discussion about the SC disturbance from the Wilmington NWS. Models all over the place, but no real mention of tropical features: MODELS ARE STILL IN DISAGREEMENT WITH WHAT TO DO WITH THE SYSTEM OVER THE NEXT COUPLE OF DAYS. THE ETA FINALLY RECOGNIZES THERE IS INDEED SOMETHING OUT THERE PAST 12 HOURS INTO THE FORECAST. IT TAKES THE LOW SW INTO N FL. THE GFS TAKES THE SYSTEM WNW UP THE SAVANNAH RIVER THROUGH SATURDAY. AN ETA SOLUTION WOULD ALLOW MUCH DRIER AIR TO SLIDE SOUTH AND DRY OUT THE NORTHERN HALF OF THE CWA BEGINNING FRIDAY. THE GFS SOLUTION WOULD KEEP MUCH MORE OF THE AREA UNDER THE GUN FOR SHOWERS. WILL SPLIT THE DIFFERENCE FOR NOW SINCE THE ETA WAS SO UNRELIABLE YESTERDAY AND GO WITH 20-40 POPS MOST AREAS IN THE SHORT TERM. |
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Just a thought, is it totally out of the question that Florida, ironically, could get a hit again? I think that would be one for the history books! :?: |
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Looks like Frances is now a hurricane:- http://www.srh.noaa.gov/data/WBC/CHGHUR.0408261846 |
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It's really never out of the question that Florida could get hit from the low off the southeastern coast but thats like saying what are the odds of getting struck by lighting twice in the same month. |
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Yes, very close....from the TWD... TROPICAL STORM FRANCES CENTER NEAR 13.1N 45.0W...OR ABOUT 1105 MILES...1775 KM...EAST OF THE LESSER ANTILLES AT 26/1500 UTC. FRANCES CONTINUES TO MOVE WEST-NORTHWEST AT 15 KT. MAXIMUM SUSTAINED WIND SPEED HAS INCREASED TO 60 KT WITH TO GUSTS 75 KT AND THE ESTIMATED MINIMUM CENTRAL PRESSURE IS 990 MB. |
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Lord hopes that doesn't happen! Well we don't have anymore trees to lose so I guess thats the good thing about it. |
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http://www.ssd.noaa.gov/PS/TROP/DATA/RT/float-ir4-loop.html |
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The northewesterly track has begain, it now seems more likely that it will impact the US. I wonder what will happen if Frances comes in contact will the low off of the southeastern coast, very interesting. |
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The way the forecast track bends to the West reminds me of Andrew's track. |
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Quote: Huh? What northwesterly track? |
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More importantly, every model now takes Frances south of 20/60 and most have Frances well west of 60 before 20N. |
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Still, the effects of the ridge will have much to do with the whereabouts of Francis by the time it gets near to PR or Hispaniola- if and only if it gets that far south and west. |
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so far today it traveled wnw...then a drop more westerly.. than again wnw you have to look at the movement over time.. that is how NHC does track so..they will stay with wnw but... as a storm builds its path is not always fluid and hard to see where the shape of the eye turning distorts what looks like movement looks like a real stair stepper to me which makes it harder to figure out anyone see it slowing down? Heard this morning that it would begin to be affected by different steering currents and begin to slow down forward progress.. dont see it yet. |
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how far out is that from today? and wondering on what everyone thinks on this one will it come in under the infamous 20/60 line? |
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Look at the AVN projections for Frances: http://www.midatlanticwx.com/modelmap.htm Talk about an outlier! |
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The AVN projection is classic Cape Verde, wouldn't you say? I wonder what variables they are using in that model (or, what variables are missing?) |
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Not sure. I've been following tropical weather for years, but pretty much a newbie to some of the technical aspects of this forum...so you're saying that the AVN is based more on the history of CS storms, rather than on some other analysis? |
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It is worthy to note that the very preceding run of the AVN had it impacting the SE coast of Florida with landfall in 13 days - the same length of time as that model goes out to...so don't put really any faith in that solution. Of note, however, is that the 12z GFDL (may not be publicly out yet) brings Francis to 147mph in 5 days. A couple of the proprietary models we have here are the strongest of them all (not incl. the GFDL). It should also be noted that the track forecast continues to bend to the left ever-so-slightly. There are some bad analogs for this storm...but we'll see how it all plays out. |
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I think that they're seven variables that are used in all of the models, at least for regular meteorology(not tropical). The saying that I always use if I have inaccurate forecasts is that are seven variables and only six equations to solve for the seven unknowns, that's why it is so hard to figure out weather. Hurricanes are different because they are heat engines, and since we poorly understand how heat is transfered into motion it is hard to perdict were these storms will go. |
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80 MPH |
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It's official. Frances is a hurricane and everyone along the coast needs to keep a close eye on her. According to this discussion the Bermuda High will be building back in. http://www.wunderground.com/tropical/at200406.disc.html |
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The following should explain pretty much everything about the models. It's some lengthy reading, but it will help to explain each model's strengths and weaknesses. I would also like to point out what scottsvb said earlier as well as what Ed's "credo" is...anything beyond 5 days out is pure speculation. model explanations This needs to be watched...closely...and everyone on the entire east coast and probably for now the Gulf should monitor Frances' progress. But this storm is still a long way away from the US mainland. For now, don't take what the models are predicting past 120 hours (and more realistically 72 hours) as anything but speculation. |
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But you are right; anything beyond 72 hours has a lower confidence score; therefore any projections beyond 5 days have even less. It's just for all to beware and be on alert. |
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I know it's exciting that Frances is a hurricane now, but look at the long range radar from Savannah. Could that be a low pressure system just off shore of South Carolina? Savannah Radar |
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>>> I know it's exciting that Frances is a hurricane now This is going to be a major hurricane before the weekend is over, and it doesn't look like it's going to spin the fish. The only question is how strong will it be at landfall, and where will landfall be...I wouldn't call the feeling anyone is getting when they could potentially be in the bullseye "exciting." Carolinians also need to be watching the frontal boundary for development. |
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what does everyone think of the statement that Frances is or will go more west and the Bermuda High is moving in? Just how will the Bermuda HIgh affect Frances's direction? Ticka1 |
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Quote: I think that exciting is the wrong word for the feeling that many of us here in central florida feel as Frances organizes. There is an excitement that comes from looking at a cane that is forming, and has nothing to do with the dread that we feel at the thought of one of these beautiful monsters taking aim at the east coast. Everytime I drive in to Orlando and see the aftermath of Charley, I wonder why I love watching these storms develope. Yet here I am every night, surfing from site to site, trying to teach myself something about the mystery of the big storms. Education was my only weapon against the fear. For the most part everyone is still talking way over my head, but I get the drift and go hunting for explinations to the things that have been posted. Frances "feels" and looks like what I saw with floyd. I do not know if it is the size of the storm building, or the speed it is organizing. It is still out there a ways, and the hand of god can still push it more north, but someone is going to deal with this baby. In my very VERY novice opinion. For what its worth. Be Safe Whatever happens!! |
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I don't know how being in the path of a hurricane is exciting maybe exicting is not the word, more like anxious. This hurricane will pose a serious threat for the coastline, it is very dangerous and there's nothing exciting about it. |
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This one is worth watching now. Looks like another widow maker to me. The distance belies any real guess to it's eventual path, so why go there yet. It will be interesting to see if the Bermuda high keeps it westerly. Following the pattern this year, this sure looks like a player. Intensity will be up there, of course. One wonders that if it gets to a major hurricane soon...How long can it stay at that?...don't they have a natural life cycle....time wise...or the fact it is way out there....does that mean it can stay a major cat 3 or better...long enough to punish us?... probably CAT 5, Mobile bound, of course... Rick...I knew it wouldn't take you long...since there are many new to the board who don't get it, lets make this the last reference. Thanks, big guy. |
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Already showing an offshore rotation, about 50 miles east of CHS. Intellicast loop |
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I agree that this may peak early, so its eventually strength (should it head for land) is anyone's guess. Remember that Andrew was barreling along only to get squashed when he was north of Puerto Rico. I thought initially that it would diminish. Then came the ridge from the NW that built over him and drove him west then WSW. |
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A major hurricane-to-be like Frances deserves respect; one must act with wisdom- since we can't control the weather, we can control ourselves and act to protect our lives and property ( as best that be done). Hopefully, it won't be a landfalling system- too much distance from us to responsibly state landfalling probabilities with any confidence. All we can do is view this sytem with awe and respect for mother nature's beauty. |
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looks like its getting better organized slowly, although there is still no invest on it |
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HanKFranK just put up a new thread. All new replies should go there. Thanks! |
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Hmmm maybe he thinks tax audits from the IRS are exciting too...................I am still getting over Charley...........I don't need the excitement that this poster mentions...............oh well |