MikeCAdministrator
(Admin)
Tue Aug 30 2005 05:53 PM
Katrina Aftermath Continues

Are you Looking for information about a specfic area or have information tos hare, or have stories to tell about Katrina, please use the disaster forum.

Katrina is heading north toward the Northeast US over land, and is no longer being tracked by the hurricane center.

New Orleans is around 80% flooded, and since 91L isn't quite ready to form (although it may over the next few days) this thread will be a continuation post about general information about Katrina and it's imapacts as a storm.
Knowing what hurricanes can do to an area gives you a better idea how to pepare.

Please use the disaster forum for information about specific areas You do not have to register to post in the disaster forum.

Discussion about former TD#13 and 91L is allowed both here and in the storm forum.

Event Related Links
General Links
Color Sat of Gulf
RAMSDIS high speed visible Floater of Storms

Graphic showing elevations of New Orleans

Emergency Management/County info
Gulf Coast Storm Alert Network
FloridaDisaster.org - Florida Emergency Management
Mississippi Emer. Management
State of Florida Division of Emergency Management/floridadisaster.org
Louisiana Emergency Management

Video/Audio Links
NOAA Weather Radio out of New Orleans
Hurricane City - Live Audio and Video
HurricaneTrack/Mark Sudduth HIRT Team

Television/Radio
WWL TV 4 (CBS Affiliate in New Orleans) - KHOU is streaming WWL TV as well HERE
ABC 26 TV (ABC Affiliate in New Orleans)
WDSU Channel 6 (NBC Affiliate New Orleans)
Fox 8 (New Orleans)
WTIX 690 News Radio
WWL 870 News Radio
WTOK 11 / Missippii Alabama ABC Affiliate -- Jason Kelly is assisting Operations Here <a href="mms://a1558.l1207832090.c12078.g.lm.akamaistream.net/D/1558/12078/v0001/reflector:32090" target="_blank">Video stream from here</a>
Hurricane Now - Video reports from former CNN hurrican reporter Jeff Flock
Weathervine.com
Joseph Johnston's Mobile Bay Webcam
WKRG 5 in Mobile/Pensacola
WPMI Channel 15 from Mobile

Other
NOLA - Everything New Orleans
South Mississippi Sun Herald
Al.com - everything Alabama - Katrina Photos
AP and Reuters Photos from Katrina areas (Continually updated)

-- Looking for more Video/Audio links for the approach areas, please let us know if you have any links/information!

Former TD#13

Animated model plots of Former TD#13

Invest 91L


Rich B
(British Meteorologist)
Tue Aug 30 2005 06:27 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

First of all let me begin by offering my sincere thoughts and prayers to everyone affected by Katrina, certainly was a monster storm - and indeed catastrophic to many areas.

Looks like we could see exTD13 reclassified tonight or wednesday. This has been showing signs of reorganisation the past few hours, with a well defined comma cloud pattern over the eastern semicircle. It is, fortunately, no threat to land, and stands a good chance of becoming Lee tomoro or Thursday.

91L also looks likely to become a classified system, probably Wednesday after visible imagery becomes avaialble. Still to early to call where this one will go, but indications are it will probably follow a somewhat similiar path to TD13 and its remnants.

Once again, keep safe!

Regards


HanKFranK
(User)
Tue Aug 30 2005 06:50 PM
quiet, but damage done

katrina is undoubtedly the new landmark in american natural disasters. lets hope it stands alone for many years to come. we still have no sound estimates on the dead and how high the monetary cost will be. the economic repercussions will reach us shortly in significantly higher gas prices.. and subsequent added costs to consumer goods.
i can pretty much rehash last night's review, because not much has changed. former 13 is moving nnw into the open atlantic ahead of a large weakness in the western atlantic. invest 91L is being sheared by a sharp low latitude upper trough, that should induce a more poleward movement and put it on a similar track. it has a significant amount of shear to survive for the next day or so before it reaches a more favorable environment. neither of these have tremendous development chances, but either has modest potential. numerous globals showing the next wave developing. will have to be watched based on time of year and overland signature.
big stew in the western and central atlantic. former 97L is indistinct near 25/60 along a convective cluster. an llc from one of the complexes near bermuda is spinning vigorously south of the island, but being sheared.
late in the week and into the weekend a large pattern-pulse type feature should be induced off the east coast and perhaps in the northern gulf. globals handle on this feature suggests it may not be a tropical feature. nevertheless it may potentially develop something close-in. models show a lot of shear, but may not be handling the circulation features well. there is a typhoon going west to taiwan, so that favors a resurgent ridge near the eastern u.s. via teleconnection... the other system appears okinawa or eventually japan bound. a similar response in the atlantic would support more landfall threats, but there don't appear to be any features in place to make the pattern connection.
rest of the week should be fairly quiet. the damage is done, however.
HF 2248z30august


JMII
(Weather Master)
Tue Aug 30 2005 07:24 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

Quote:

Knowing what hurricanes can do to an area gives you a better idea how to pepare.




Agreed. My wife thinks I'm a sick-o for watching all this hurricane coverage but living in South FL I know the next time it could be our family on top of our own roof waiting for the helicopters to come. After last years record number of landfalls we added new items to our "hurricane safe box" - mostly surgical type medical items (gloves, anti-bacterial creams, ect).


tashina
(Verified CFHC User)
Tue Aug 30 2005 07:46 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

Local TV is reporting that the 17th st levee fix has failed and to get this out to everyone ASAP in case anyone can reach relatives.The pump is being disabled. The East Bank of Jefferson Parish and Orleans Parish is expected to now flood to 3' above sea level - estimated 12'-15' of water.

Edit: They just corrected themselves- the 3' above sea level is correct. It should be 9' of flooding in the next 12-15 hours.


The feed I'm watching is:
http://www.khou.com/perl/common/video/wmPlayer.pl?title=beloint_khou&props=livenoad


Humanriff
(Verified CFHC User)
Tue Aug 30 2005 07:51 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

Amazing video here, now

http://www.wwltv.com/perl/common/video/wmPlayer.pl?title=beloint_khou&props=livenoad


Clark
(Meteorologist)
Tue Aug 30 2005 07:53 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

This just keeps getting worse and worse. Reports of 60,000 in the Superdome they need to get out, people on their roof all over town, people trapped in waist-deep toxic waters, and with the water continuing to rise, it's going to be very, very difficult to get all of these people out. The entire region is under martial law and if things keep getting worse, the predictions of allowing people back in next week to get some things aren't even going to be able to hold.

My prayers to all of those affected by this -- and hopefully this is one that will not be topped for a very, very long time.


BTfromAZ
(Weather Hobbyist)
Tue Aug 30 2005 07:56 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

Some of the national media who didn't "get it" seem to be waking up. The Wall Street Journal, which carried their Katrina stories in the second section of this morning's print edition and included statements such as "An aging New Orleans levee broke, but the city was spared utter devastation as the storm failed to reach predicted levels", now carries a lead headline on their web site that says: " Katrina Crisis Worsens; Superdome to Be Evacuated"

Jeffmidtown
(Weather Guru)
Tue Aug 30 2005 08:04 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

I continue to watch the coverage of the unfolding tragedy and it keeps getting worse and worse and worse. Now I hear the 17th St Levee repair has failed and there could be 9' of water in parts of Jefferson and Orleans parish.

Every time I watch or see a report on-line I have to fight back tears and with the latest report I have to think...My God how much more suffering are these people are going to endure?

Please everyone, look up the charity folks and get in touch with them to donate to them as well if youre religious or not, say a prayer for the folks on the gulf coast.

I'm sorry if this is off topic and if you need to delete it, I understand, but here in Atlanta I'm sitting here crying as I write this....

Stay Safe everyone


BTfromAZ
(Weather Hobbyist)
Tue Aug 30 2005 08:12 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

CNN is broadcasting comments from a WDSU (NO NBC affiliate) reporter who says their station's transmitter was "fried" but, worse yet, they found it impossible to report the story from New Orleans because people were demanding their reporters hand over their cameras or anything else that could be used for barter. The station has packed up and moved to Jackson, MS!!! He also mentioned reports of car-jacking and a policeman being shot. What we have here, folks, is anarchy and it will only get worse until large numbers of military troops arrive. Where are they?

VolusiaMike
(Weather Hobbyist)
Tue Aug 30 2005 08:16 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

Reports coming in are not good. The initial Overhead Team (group that sets up the systems necessary for emergency responses), many of whom have worked all disasters since Hurricane Andrew, indicate that the situation is the worst they have ever faced. That is especially significant considering some of the events these people have worked.

Looting in NO is starting to get out of control. Police are too busy to deal with the looters - remember they are still in search and rescue operations, plus dealing with their own situations (lost homes, family members, etc.).

Tomorrow the DMORT's (Disaster Mortuary Operatonal Response Teams) will move into the area. Locations of known bodies are being marked, but they have nowhere currently to take the bodies. The DMORT units will set that up tomorrow. I am afraid that the total toll of this terrible storm will not be known for many days.

USAR (Urban Search and Rescue) Teams are being brought in from all over the country.

The support necessary to sustain these operations will be incredible. Teams going in now are taking what they need to survive for a minimum of five days. After Andrew, the Army set up feeding stations for emergency workers, which will probably occur in this situation. Many teams have mobile canteens to support their teams and can get resupplied to keep operations going.

One big issue always is, and will certainly be in this situation, the availability of fuel for the equipment.

Michael


LI Phil
(User)
Tue Aug 30 2005 08:16 PM
i'm crying as i type this

words can no longer describe the magnitude of this disaster...i'm currently watching some of the most amazing (and sickening) footage on msnbc shot by their chopper pilot showing 17 (that's seventeen!) miles of utter devastation along the mississippi coast...

they mentioned that among other areas, hattiesburg was also devastated...speaking of which

i still have heard nothing from danny or frank or rick...

i'm sure their priorities are not to post here and i doubt any of them have power or phone...possibly even residences...i can only hope they still have their lives

if there's any good news, i (being the weather nut we all are) was able to push my boss to get NY national guard units and others to get their a$$es down to the affected areas...we all remember how much all ya'll helped us after 9/11...well...now it's our turn...

i'm crying as i type this...godspeed to all...of course if i hear anything from anyone, especially danny rick & frank...i'll let the boards know asap


twizted sizter
(Weather Guru)
Tue Aug 30 2005 08:18 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

I am seeing shots out of MS...can not believe 90...I'm afraid as they get to some of these areas & start showing more aerial footage that what we've seen already will pale in comparison.

nl
(Storm Tracker)
Tue Aug 30 2005 08:27 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

hey guys! i just got on. ive been watching the news all day today and seeing the heartbreaking videos. i keep thinking about what if that was us here in fl and what if it happens this yr. found out that my wive katrina's uncle lost his house in gulfport but is staying in jax. he is ok thank god! ive been so depressed all day watching this footage and im watching msnbc right now. did i hear them correctly comparing it too hiroshima and other things? i really feel for those people and my prayers go out too them. i think its time for hollywood too step up and do something and other countries. thank god for americans! thank you ryan and god bless you and ny. im moving too buffalo area next yr so illl be a nyorker. but i just hope we dont go through this in fl.

Ryan
(Storm Tracker)
Tue Aug 30 2005 08:28 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

Hey, Ryan here

im devestated when i see all this destruction..it makes me sick to see people looting, so stupid, eveyone needs help down there so don't go causing more damage and fighting over things that arent even yours.

You may think oh why is he soo devestated he lives on LI, my best friend moved to Pascagoula, MS, their home was pick up and dragged through their neighboors home, destroying them both. And i know other people down their, like my aunt and uncle. They have 4 kids and their grandparents live with them(my great grandparents). My great grandma passed away as flood waters came up drowning her and my great grandpa died from a heart attack. My g.gma's body is yet to be found. This is a horrific event, i feel guilty almost. I wish there was anything i could do.


LI Phil
(User)
Tue Aug 30 2005 08:34 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

Quote:

I wish there was anything i could do.




you can ryan...help the red cross help the victims...and it doesn't have to be money...donate blood, man a call center, gather up clothes, bottled water, blankets, anything they say will be needed...click the post at the top of every page on this site or call 1-800-HELP-NOW. you can also pay pal mike on this site and he'll get the money there...

anyone and everyone who can help in any way...please do so...this isn't a local disaster, it's an AMERICAN disaster...

>>> im moving too buffalo area next yr so illl be a nyorker

well, not really, but thanks for your kind words...

*still crying*


Clark
(Meteorologist)
Tue Aug 30 2005 08:35 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

Ryan, my condolences to you and your family on your losses. It's never easy losing a loved one, especially in a circumstance such as this. I can only hope that the cleanup can go well in that area and you all will be able to have some closure on this event.

It goes to show you how far reaching the impacts of this storm are (and will continue to be) -- everyone is going to be emotionally drained, if not already, and on edge for quite some time. Hang in there and hopefully, things will get better. When there's nothing else, there is hope.


MissouriHurricane2008
(Verified CFHC User)
Tue Aug 30 2005 08:35 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

WOW! The damage in Biloxi, Gulfport, and New Orleans is azmazing. We havent even been able to get to all the areas hit by the hurricane. These people are going need months to rebuild. All i can say is WOW at the damage. I will be praying for these people.

Big Red Machine
(Storm Tracker)
Tue Aug 30 2005 08:36 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

Oh my. I was pretty pessimistic coming into this. It's obvious that I was not pessimistic enough.
Horrible news below. For those of you who have been on all day today. I posted earlier about this particular prison I believe. Apparently things took a turn.
And Ryan, my sincerest apologies for you and your family at this time.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/HurricaneKatrina/story?id=1081633&page=1

Aug. 30, 2005 ó Inmates at a prison in hurricane-ravaged New Orleans have rioted, attempted to escape and are now holding hostages, a prison commissioner told ABC News affiliate WBRZ in Baton Rouge, La.

Orleans Parish Prison Commissioner Oliver Thomas reported the incident to WBRZ.

A deputy at Orleans Parish Prison, his wife and their four children have been taken hostage by rioting prisoners after riding out Hurricane Katrina inside the jail building, according to WBRZ.

Officials are expected to hold a press conference regarding the riots at 9 p.m. ET.

A woman interviewed by WBRZ said her son, a deputy at the prison whose family is among the hostages, told her that many of the prisoners have fashioned homemade weapons. Her son had brought his family there hoping they would be safe during the storm.


Beaumont, TX
(Storm Tracker)
Tue Aug 30 2005 08:41 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

Well, I'm back from New York. We have many who evacuated here in Beaumont. Many here have family in Louisiana
who are now staying with them. I expected that Katrina would head more towards Louisiana because our weatherman had told
us we had a high over us that should protect us. Anyway, we here in Beaumont are praying for all of our neighbors in Louisiana
and Mississippi.


Ryan
(Storm Tracker)
Tue Aug 30 2005 08:42 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

Quote:

Quote:

I wish there was anything i could do.




you can ryan...help the red cross help the victims...and it doesn't have to be money...donate blood, man a call center, gather up clothes, bottled water, blankets, anything they say will be needed...click the post at the top of every page on this site or call 1-800-HELP-NOW. you can also pay pal mike on this site and he'll get the money there...

anyone and everyone who can help in any way...please do so...this isn't a local disaster, it's an AMERICAN disaster...

>>> im moving too buffalo area next yr so illl be a nyorker

well, not really, but thanks for your kind words...

*still crying*




i have gave water and non-preishable foods tot he red cross already, clothes to my church who send them to Louisiana-Mississippi, i just wish theyre was a way to like save every life you know, the power of nature has truly proven itself dangerous to me.

Thank you all for your sympathy im sure there's people in my same situation.

and nl, why buffalo?, business..family?, that's kind of Canada..i consider it Canada.

This is a bad start to my birthday countdown, huh?


StormKrone
(Weather Watcher)
Tue Aug 30 2005 08:48 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

To Ryan: my deepest sympathies to you and your family.

I am also deeply saddened (and disgusted) to report this from Tallahassee. It seems that Katrina evacuees in our fair city (read sarcasm) are being told by motels that they have to vacate their rooms by Friday since all motels are booked for the upcoming Miami/FSU game.

And, to add insult to injury, the churches that are being used as shelters want the evacuees out so that they (churches) can prepare for Sunday services.

So much for asking, "what can I do to help?"

I am doing what I can to get the word out to see how the community-at-large will respond to this situation.

At all cost, business-- the bottom line -- will prevail.. Also, please note that this is a restrained post, I restrained from saying what I'd really like to say.
i'll say it for you. the hell with business. these places are shelters for refugees. football games and church services will have to take a back seat. that is the way things are now. --HF


tpratch
(Moderator)
Tue Aug 30 2005 08:52 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

The motels are quasi-understandable (somewhat reprehensible, but still borderline acceptable business practices).

The churches however, ought to find a way to accomodate people. What sort of message are they giving by saying "we thought it would just be a day or two, we weren't ready to commit to this"?

*sighs and shakes head*


LI Phil
(User)
Tue Aug 30 2005 08:52 PM
football versus hurricanes

last year before jeanne made landfall, there was a rather heated discussion on the boards because dave wannstead (EX coach of the dolphins) did NOT want to move the dolphin game...in fact i damn near quit the boards over it...(not the football game, the discussion here)...don't even get me started

and i love football, so it has nothing to do with that...but people don't have any priorities anymore...it absolutely blows my mind

sorry for the vent...back to reality


nl
(Storm Tracker)
Tue Aug 30 2005 08:54 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

are u kidding me? im a really big nole fan and if i had a ticket or a booked room i would glady give up my room for them. how dare them! and for the churches no comment!

emackl
(Storm Tracker)
Tue Aug 30 2005 08:56 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

O.K., If that turns out to be the case I'm really ticked off. FLORIDA should know better. This is a classic example where the media can be a blessing. If this would get national airplay, it would certainly change their tune. Anyone have any connections?

twizted sizter
(Weather Guru)
Tue Aug 30 2005 08:56 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

The scumbag looters I thought were bad enough...now the prison post & this,,,I hope this gets out to every paper, radio, politican in Tally...I hope ticket holders boycott...2nd thought I bet they wouldn't...doesn't affect them...geez this is so sad...the words I want to use right now are so bad...and CHURCHES...what a world we live in.

Just as times like these bring out the best in mankind it also unfortunatly brings out the worse...where's the compassion, the empathy?

Ryan...I am sorry for your loss...my thoughts are with you & your family.


Londovir
(Weather Guru)
Tue Aug 30 2005 08:59 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

I share and extend my heartfelt sympathies to all (esp. Ryan) who have suffered greatly through this horrific natural disaster. We suffered in small comparison last year through 3 canes in Florida, and our minor inconveniences, which seemed so difficult to bear then, seem now to be selfishly extravagant.

I just watched the video of the poor gentleman whose wife was pulled away from his grip when his house split apart. I'd read about it before, but hadn't seen it on video. The emotion is so heart-wrenching it brings tears to my eyes, and I'm not a softie really. Then I just saw video of people rescuing a guy from the attic of his house. His exhaustion was so profound, and the look of joyous relief to be rescued just continues to pull at my soul while I sit here watching.

I'm blessed because, when it gets too hard, I can turn the channel to get some relief. My heart goes out to those whose lives don't have a channel to change to feel better.

God bless all of you affected by this tragedy. Our prayers go out to you.


WhitherWeather
(Verified CFHC User)
Tue Aug 30 2005 09:00 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

The pump at the 17th street canal has failed. The water is going to rise faster, and is going to rise to the level of Lake Pontchartrain--3' above sea level.

Now being predicted that even the French Quarter will be under up to 9' of water within 12-15 hours. This from the Mayor of New Orleans.

Being reported live on WWLTV WWL TV Live coverage.

WhitherWeather


Humanriff
(Verified CFHC User)
Tue Aug 30 2005 09:01 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

I've gotta say that as far as "looting" is concerned, what I am seeing on these feeds is just people trying to stay alive. They seem to be taking food and drinks. Since the economic system has broken down, and a lot of this food will go bad pretty fast, and there is no potable water, I can't say that if I was in the same situation and didn't have any food and water stored (which I do) I might be doing some "looting" myself. This is entirely different to me from people taking electronics and bling. I just feel bad for these people who are just trying to survive in what will soon be an unsurvivable situation.

twizted sizter
(Weather Guru)
Tue Aug 30 2005 09:06 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

The food & water could be understandable..desperate times & all that...but what is the excuse for the people taking bags of clothes, tvs, breaking open atms? That's low...a very, very bad word to decsribe them...profiting from the misery of others.What the hell do they need a tv for...there's no electric.

LI Phil
(User)
Tue Aug 30 2005 09:11 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

i've seen the footage, and anyone who's "looting" food, diapers, anything to survive...i'd prolly do it too...

those taking tvs and stereos...those holding cops hostage or tv camera crews...i not only have no sympathy for, but i would wholeheartedly support the national guard units in SHOOTING THEM if they didn't immediately drop what they were carrying and surrendering...

martial law...people...god

and you know what...

we ain't seen NOTHING yet


Random Chaos
(Weather Analyst)
Tue Aug 30 2005 09:14 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

Everything I've read for the last day has left me with dread, and it only keeps getting worse.

------

Here's a photo of the levee breach:

http://media.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/photo/homepage/hp8-30-05ii.jpg

--RC


Ryan
(Storm Tracker)
Tue Aug 30 2005 09:20 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

one of the worst things i think is like ok my house didn't get destroyed but its filled with water and im gonna have to rip it down when all's over with after mold takes it over. True, or not true?

age234
(Verified CFHC User)
Tue Aug 30 2005 09:25 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

MSNBC is showing footage of looters in an Alabama Wal-Mart, looking right into the camera grinning with a cart full of CDs. I hope they catch them with the help of this footage, and throw them away for the rest of their lives.

Disaster Master
(Weather Hobbyist)
Tue Aug 30 2005 09:26 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

MY trip to N.O. has been put off until friday. I am a good source of information at this time whether it by critical of logistical. I would rather answer questions than tie up endless post with information. Please feel free to ask away.

R.P.
National Flood Insurance Program


VandyBrad
(Weather Hobbyist)
Tue Aug 30 2005 09:27 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

Quote:

CNN is broadcasting comments from a WDSU (NO NBC affiliate) reporter who says their station's transmitter was "fried" but, worse yet, they found it impossible to report the story from New Orleans because people were demanding their reporters hand over their cameras or anything else that could be used for barter. The station has packed up and moved to Jackson, MS!!! He also mentioned reports of car-jacking and a policeman being shot. What we have here, folks, is anarchy and it will only get worse until large numbers of military troops arrive. Where are they?




My brother is stationed at Ft. Polk, LA. He was due to return to Iraq from RR to complete his second term there. As I last heard, they were due to leave yesterday. I'm not sure if that occurred or not but it seems to me that he would be better off serving in his own backyard than returning at a time like this.


twizted sizter
(Weather Guru)
Tue Aug 30 2005 09:27 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

Wait till you see the footage of the @#%$ going thru the Wal-Mart stealing carts of toys, cds...I believe Wal-mart is making a sizeable donantion...as they should...I hope they blow the faces up of these people, post the pics & refuse them so much as abottle of water...sorry I'm an eye for an eye type of gal.

Ryan
(Storm Tracker)
Tue Aug 30 2005 09:28 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

this is really random, sorry, but i was wonderig if theres a snow forum or winter weatehr forum as we prepare for what aome are saying a "snowy snowy winter"...sorry, if this gets removed i understand...you can PM me with sites that would be great thanks for all your help and sympathy, again

emackl
(Storm Tracker)
Tue Aug 30 2005 09:29 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

Just heard an interview with the Attorney General of NO. Not too impressed. If fact, it the looters heard him they will be out in force tonight.

Ryan, I'm so sorry for you loss. Hang in there.

Any news from Rick, Frank, Margie's brother or the other members?


Clark
(Meteorologist)
Tue Aug 30 2005 09:29 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

R.P. -- quick question, any idea what it looks like in the Kenner area north of I-10? I imagine it's not pretty, but wanted to get some more concrete info.

We're going to organize a relief effort here in Tallahassee for the storm. More as it becomes available...


Disaster Master
(Weather Hobbyist)
Tue Aug 30 2005 09:30 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

Once Marshall Law is imposed. The word will get out quick. A few shot up bodies on FNC and it will slow or stop.

Disaster Master
(Weather Hobbyist)
Tue Aug 30 2005 09:31 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

6 - 8 foot of water in Kenner north of I-10. in the Williams Blvd area. I know for a fact. my hotel reservations where there, thats why im waiting till friday to leave.

LI Phil
(User)
Tue Aug 30 2005 09:33 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

>>> Any news from Rick, Frank, Margie's brother or the other members?

no...not yet...although i was outside a few minutes ago taking a smoke break and some one had called me, leaving no message, but i think it was margie (area code told me so)...so MARGIE, (i'll also pm you), if you're reading this, call me...i'll make sure i smoke INSIDE now...

*hacking up lung cookies thru tears*

btw...still have no info on steve and many others from NO or the NO area...

of course, anything i hear i'll post


Disaster Master
(Weather Hobbyist)
Tue Aug 30 2005 09:34 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

FYI 17th st canal repair has failed. extecting another 15 ft of water in that area. Like throwing rocks at a machine gun turent. They are talking about filling shipping containers with concrete and barging them in

bobbutts
(Weather Hobbyist)
Tue Aug 30 2005 09:34 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

Sounds like the officials have conceeded the city will flood to +3 above sea level. My thoughts are with those trying to survive this horrible night.

Does anyone know specifically what this flooding means for the Superdome? Will there be a way in and out?


Disaster Master
(Weather Hobbyist)
Tue Aug 30 2005 09:36 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

Super dome is 3 levels.(ask the jumper) They will move them to upper levels.

Clark
(Meteorologist)
Tue Aug 30 2005 09:37 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

Thanks for the information. I imagined it was pretty bad there, but as always with only some visuals and second-hand reports, it's tough to get anything definite. I have a friend who lives just a few blocks from Williams Blvd. -- they had heard conflicting reports as to water or no and if so, how much. That puts it into perspective...thanks.

Disaster Master
(Weather Hobbyist)
Tue Aug 30 2005 09:39 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

No Problem. It takes me a minute to thumb through the 40 or so pages of info i have. I will resond as fast as i can. im fax is ringing again as i am typing this reply.

Colleen A.
(Moderator)
Tue Aug 30 2005 09:42 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

I was just going to ask you that, Phil. I am so worried about all of them up there. Just heard on Larry King that the "plug" they tried to use in N.O. has failed and the mayor is telling people to head to higher ground within the next 2 hours. They're looking at 15 ft. flood waters there. They showed a picture of the inside of the Superdome, there are holes in the roof; although I have no idea how far above sea level the Superdome is, I have to believe that flood waters will be able to get in there and add to the already horrible plight of those there.
May God bless all of those suffering. I never thought I'd see something like this happen in my lifetime. It's almost imcomprehensible.
And I'm not afraid to tell you that I've been shedding many tears for my fellow Americans.


wiley
(Verified CFHC User)
Tue Aug 30 2005 09:42 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

Re: the looters in NO. How are they planning to get any of the stuff they steal out with them? I'm assuming they're as trapped as anyone else...This may be one of the most tragically absurd things I've ever heard.

Big Red Machine
(Storm Tracker)
Tue Aug 30 2005 09:48 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

Steve from Metairie apparently made it out alive. Here is a post on S2K about his situation.

http://www.storm2k.org/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=72461


rule
(Weather Guru)
Tue Aug 30 2005 09:49 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

Ryan,

It depends on how your house was constructed and with what materials. It can range from tearing it down to just letting it dry out. Sorry I'm not more definitive, but it makes a big difference.

If you don't know it's construction, just tell me when it was built. I can guess it's construction method from that.

I understand you're looking for good news. If you can tell me more about it's construction, I can be more definitive. However, if you have insurance, it's going to depend on more on how they define the situation, not how actually fixing the problem.

Basically, either way it sucks...

My childhood house (when I was 6) went through Camille. While it survived (only Ĺ mile North from where Jim Cantore rode out the storm surge) I fear it's way damaged or not there now. There are railroad tracks between there and the house.. maybe every foot of elevation counted.

I think we've finally found the storm that topped Camille. Not that we were looking for it...

rule


Colleen A.
(Moderator)
Tue Aug 30 2005 09:52 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

Londivar --- I saw that interview, too. Even the reporter was crying. "Take care of the kids..." and she let go of his hand as the house split in two. I believe that there will be many, many more stories like that before this is all said and done.
My Mom was watching some show tonight when I was talking to her and she said that a Walmart in N.O. just told people: "Take whatever you want." What else are they supposed to do? These people are so used to having nothing that they WILL take anything. The strange part about it is they have no where to TAKE IT TO.
Now, when people start shooting and beating up those that are trying to protect them? I say SHOOT. The hell with them. I can't see the Superdome situation getting any better either.
Gotta run for a while, will check back in in about an hour. I have a very sick little boy, which is why I have not been able to get on as much as I wanted to.


Justin in Miami
(Storm Tracker)
Tue Aug 30 2005 09:53 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

This is historical, catastriphic, and makes me speechless! I actually had to stop watching some of the footage today because I was feeling sick. I do plan to donate to this relief effort. Couple of thoughts going through my mind tonight...considering New Orleans' past over the last 200 years or so...is this the city's worst disaster ever? I think so. Rebuilding this city will be an enormous task...nothing that I can remember in history on this scale. Almost every structure in the city proper has damage or will be gutted by flooding. Another important and long term issue will be the impact this storm had on the Missippippi River Delta southeast of the city. Is it still there? Does anyone have links to current sat picks? If that is destroyed...will they need to build a seawall to protect N.O. for the next 100 years?

my thoughts today....I agree Colleen, we always knew this could happen, but seeing live on TV and hearing about it is stunning. Sad day for our country.


Disaster Master
(Weather Hobbyist)
Tue Aug 30 2005 09:56 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

As far as the flood insurance goes it depends on the Firm Date and the elevation. anything in N.O. built after 1985, coverage starts at the lowest structural member on the elevated building. Which is the floor joist. If your house is on concrete slab most odf the time it is covered completely( most are pre-1985). Biggest concern will be mold. Most of these structures you are seing on TV IE: CNN, FNC are single family pre firm on slab. There will be full coverage. Anything sitting in water for the 3 -4 weeks they are predictiong will be classified as a total loss. Problem is im afraid that most of these folk only carry enough flood insurance to cover there mortgage. Very common problem. Any more questions, post em and i will answer. i have all of the policies. resedential and RCBAP here in front of me.

Disaster Master
(Weather Hobbyist)
Tue Aug 30 2005 09:59 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

Most of the area south and east of N.O. is now part of the Mississippi. They got hte same surge that Bilouxi got 25-34ft. I spoke with a buddy i worked a flodd claim for in 2003 in Slidell. He said his house on 8 ft pilings is gone with the rest of town and still under water. 15 - 18 ft deep.


Pardon my Grammar. Ive had a few and im trying to type as fast as possible with 2 fingers.


bobbutts
(Weather Hobbyist)
Tue Aug 30 2005 10:03 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

High res sat pic from today
http://rapidfire.sci.gsfc.nasa.gov/gallery/


Heather
(Weather Hobbyist)
Tue Aug 30 2005 10:07 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

While waiting for the storm to make landfall, we all heard a lot about the worst case scenario. The destruction in New Orleans, etc. sounded like it would be something out of a sci-fi movie. First reports were more positive, but with conditions continuing to decline, our we looking at the worst case scenario?

Also, thoughts and prayers to all of our members here who are in harms way.


WhitherWeather
(Verified CFHC User)
Tue Aug 30 2005 10:07 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

When all of New Orleans is under water level with Lake Pontchartrain, how, and to where, are they ever going to get it out, particularly given the status of the lands to the south and east already?

How much is it going to cost to get the water out?

And after it's been under that much water for that long, what will be worth the expense? To have a place to build where it can all happen again?

These may be rhetorical, even Zen questions. But now that what the Mayor has called "the point of no return" has been crossed to be unable to keep the bowl from filling, what's going to be there is a filled bowl. Is anybody really confronting the cost and time to get the water back out--and what, really will remain?

It sort of seems that all comparisons being made are to things not even remotely comparable.

WhitherWeather


Sheeper
(Weather Hobbyist)
Tue Aug 30 2005 10:12 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

here is some info that people may not be aware of. The Red Cross has a system called "Disaster Welfare Inquiry" (DWI). They can communicate from disaster zones to the outside world to let someone know that you are "ok" (or not). I believe that this communications is from Red Cross people in a disaster area to local chapters and not to people directly. Warning: the Red Cross changed it's handling of DWI recently due to budget issues and I'm not entirely sure of the impact.
I know the Red Cross is overwhelmed (as is everyone) but they're working at it. Members of my team here are enroute right now. I'm waiting to catch up with FEMA teams and should be enroute either soon or within 2 weeks as a relief team for those already in place.


WiscoWx
(Registered User)
Tue Aug 30 2005 10:12 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

DisasterMaster (or anyone else in a position to know),

I am a school administrator in Wisconsin. We will certainly be organizing donation efforts to mainstream charities in our schools like we do for every major disaster, but I am wondering what specific assistance schools elsewhere can offer to those directly impacted by Katrina. We had a local family call us today asking about residency requirements because they have relatives who hope to relocate for a few months until the recovery takes hold, which underscored the massive refugee/dislocation crisis that is upon us.

I know that there must be contingency plans for this. For dislocated families that are not moving to be with family in other areas, but will be residing in camps, what are the plans for the schooling of the children? Is this being coordinated at the states or federal level? We are planning on our budgets being strapped due to energy prices, but if we have excess materials, supplies, equipment, etc. that is of OK quality, will it be needed and what would be the point of contact? Essentially, is there anything school institutions outside the affected area can do to and how do we link up?

Thanks much!


Margie
(Senior Storm Chaser)
Tue Aug 30 2005 10:12 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

OH my god - that was taken AFTER some of the waters receeded?

Half of Jackson County and half of Mobile county is missing (underwater).


Justin in Miami
(Storm Tracker)
Tue Aug 30 2005 10:13 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

Those are my thoughts too...I also think we have not seen the scope of this disaster fully yet. I can't believe the pumps are failing and the levees are breaking...if anyone said the city doged a bullet they have been proven wrong today. I am one of them.

Katie
(Weather Guru)
Tue Aug 30 2005 10:15 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

what happens if the water doesn't go down? I mean, is that even possible? I would assume we are looking at months and not days before the water is gone.

LI Phil
(User)
Tue Aug 30 2005 10:16 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

i just got a PM from margie...she's awaiting a call from her sister (who is expecting a call from her missing brother's wife)...she'll call me after...

hopefully i'll have some good news to report...

btw, if anyone really needs a diversion from the coverage, turn on USA .. there's a really awesome tennis match going on between Roddick & Muller...

EDIT: i posted this before margie's post...


Margie
(Senior Storm Chaser)
Tue Aug 30 2005 10:17 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

Quote:

While waiting for the storm to make landfall, we all heard a lot about the worst case scenario. The destruction in New Orleans, etc. sounded like it would be something out of a sci-fi movie. First reports were more positive, but with conditions continuing to decline, our we looking at the worst case scenario?

Also, thoughts and prayers to all of our members here who are in harms way.




Yes.

The worst case scenario only required a Cat 2 in the right location, not a strong storm.

Katrina was in the right location and the west side of the storm was very week (this attenuatin could be seen prior to landfall as dry air made its way into the hurricane), so it could be compared to NO getting a Cat 2.


Catawba
(Registered User)
Tue Aug 30 2005 10:19 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

I've been unable to watch the TV most of today, but have followed this forum and a few other blogs/news sites. Just now seeing the video, though, and am flabbergasted, for a better word. Is there any word yet on the Naval Support Activity? I was stationed there for two years in the early 90's, and just read that the BRAC decided to keep it open. Now wondering if there is anything left to keep open.

-MB


rule
(Weather Guru)
Tue Aug 30 2005 10:21 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

We may already be there...

I saw a report that said the water could be pumped down 1" per hour (best case scenario). Realistically, with structures flooded for weeks... I don't know.

The cost of restoring them will outweigh the expense of replacing them. While it would be a boon to the national economy, it would be at a cost to the government. (taxpayers)

Should we replace the buildings? Only to get flooded in 50 years?

This is really bad, scary stuff, folks. Let's hope the news reports are a bit excited, and things are not quite as bad as they seem. Though I fear it's going to get worse.

rule


errorcone
(Registered User)
Tue Aug 30 2005 10:28 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

Quote:

We may already be there...

I saw a report that said the water could be pumped down 1" per hour (best case scenario). Realistically, with structures flooded for weeks... I don't know.

The cost of restoring them will outweigh the expense of replacing them. While it would be a boon to the national economy, it would be at a cost to the government. (taxpayers)

Should we replace the buildings? Only to get flooded in 50 years?

This is really bad, scary stuff, folks. Let's hope the news reports are a bit excited, and things are not quite as bad as they seem. Though I fear it's going to get worse.

rule




That, I think, is the million dollar question.

more like the $50 billion question

It's one thing to consider rich person beach houses to be temporary structures, it's another to consider an entire city to be temporary.

The insurance for buildings and houses in that area I'd imagine is going to be quite a bit more then in the past.

I'm looking at this as the removal of a city. I'm sure NO will exist in the future, but I'm not sure it will ever be a major city again. At least not in the near future.


Disaster Master
(Weather Hobbyist)
Tue Aug 30 2005 10:28 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

All efforts in that matter should be handled through the American Red Cross. That will save you a phone call.

Margie
(Senior Storm Chaser)
Tue Aug 30 2005 10:29 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

He's ALIVE!!!!

Phil I'll call you - first I have to call my great-aunt.


Disaster Master
(Weather Hobbyist)
Tue Aug 30 2005 10:31 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

All movable vessels where pulled out, its irocin that the fed gov. builds all coastal base structures to withstand 200mph winds. Most are elevated 4-6 ft. Have you ever not walked up stairs in a gov building.

LI Phil
(User)
Tue Aug 30 2005 10:35 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

Quote:

All movable vessels where pulled out, its irocin that the fed gov. builds all coastal base structures to withstand 200mph winds. Most are elevated 4-6 ft. Have you ever not walked up stairs in a gov building.




heh...i work in one...and although we've been in the building for 2 years, we're still not ADA compliant...someone in a wheelchair must be literally carried from the curb up 5 rather large steps before they can enter the building...of course the landlord promised ada compliance prior to us signing our lease...your taxes at work

back to the disaster at hand...


routerheads
(Registered User)
Tue Aug 30 2005 10:35 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

Great news Margie!

Please update us with his first hand information when you get it.

JB


Disaster Master
(Weather Hobbyist)
Tue Aug 30 2005 10:37 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

I have more than 3000 rounds of amunition in my shop out back. i will donate all to deal with these Scumm Bag looters. Sorry Mods for the name calling, but this is one of those situations. Examples need to be made.
Food i can understand. Most stores would donate what they cant sell anyway. But Watching these scum bags steal Toby Keith Cd's from walmart crosses the line. LoL anyone else need the laugh?

steal it? i didn't think they could give it away

Vey funny Phil. NOT!


mojorox
(Weather Watcher)
Tue Aug 30 2005 10:37 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

I have been a mess emotionally. I think it is a mix of feelings returning after the three I went through last year, an empathizing, and a horror at what is happening. It is hard and I feel helpless. I have MS and can't donate blood but I will send in a donation but it just seems so little....Grieving here in Orlando

Disaster Master
(Weather Hobbyist)
Tue Aug 30 2005 10:39 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

Margie, i hope your talking about your Bro. God Bless him. He's a hero. I need his location and address. I will give to FNC. He need to be on the air. We need something like him to talk about. If even for a few minutes.

Catawba
(Registered User)
Tue Aug 30 2005 10:41 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

It's been well over 10 years since I was stationed there, so my memory may be faulty, but I am not so sure that all of the buildings were built as sturdily as you say. Of course, that was pre-Andrew (by a few months), so maybe they upgraded the older buildings since then. But since this particular base straddles the river on both sides, I was actually more concerned about the flooding. If I recall correctly, the east bank side is on Dauphin Street. I don't remember the name of the major street on the west bank, but it was in the Algiers area. I imagine the East bank side is flooded out, or will be soon with this levee breech.

Margie, I'm glad your brother is ok!

-MB


Disaster Master
(Weather Hobbyist)
Tue Aug 30 2005 10:41 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

first pick of Slidell on CNN

WhitherWeather
(Verified CFHC User)
Tue Aug 30 2005 10:43 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

A great relief to hear that your brother is alive. News of every personal triumph of survival is balm for many troubled souls.

WhitherWeather


G. J.
(Weather Watcher)
Tue Aug 30 2005 10:44 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

Quote:

I have more than 3000 rounds of amunition in my shop out back. i will donate all to deal with these Scumm Bag looters.




I've got 500 rounds of .44mag. loaded with 300gr. Hornady XTP's stacked on top of the highest amount of Winchester 296 powder recommended for any handgun I'd gladly donate

That was funny Phil

yeah, and i'll donate all my 7mm RM 160gr. to charity, too. come on, quit talking about shooting looters. i'm sure the army will take care of things... if some jackasses want martial law, they've bit off a lot more than they can chew.-HF


Colleen A.
(Moderator)
Tue Aug 30 2005 10:45 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

I'm listening to Ed Reams with WDSU/Channel 6 for New Orleans. He just said that he heard from the mayor that another levee (sp?) is now on the verge of breaking because sandbags that were supposed to be delivered by the Army could not be delivered. Another reporter said that a looter shot a policeman in the head, but that he is expected to live. The reporter also said that if the mayor is correct and most of the city will be underwater, the looters loot won't be worth anything because they'll all be underwater. The reporter also said that he is reporting from Jackson, MS because they felt they were in too much danger. I think you could say LA is in a state of mass confusion. Have there been any reports from Grand Isle, LA? At 6:30 tonight, NBC News reported that no one had been able to get there.
There is no way they can get that water out until they are able to get the pumps working again. That can't happen until they have electricity. The pumps that are running on diesel are failing because it's just too much for them to handle, so they are just shutting them down. It will be weeks before that water is gone.
I have a question: if they want to evacuate the Superdome, just how are they going to do that? I know they are moving them up, but how to get them down to get them out? They are also taking people from Tulane University Hospital TO the Superdome because of flooding. There are (what looks to be) 100's of people sitting under the overpasses near the Superdome. Where is higher ground and HOW are they going to get there?
Next question: has anyone heard from the UN or our so-called allies telling the US that they would do anything to help us? So far, the only countries I've heard about is Saudi Arabia and Venezuala.
I am now hearing on CNN that the police and the National Guard are making their presence known in the looting areas.
Looking at these pictures is like looking at the tsunami videos from December or some Third World country.


Disaster Master
(Weather Hobbyist)
Tue Aug 30 2005 10:48 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

Grand Isle is part of the Mississipi River now. only a hand full of people stayed. No reports from that area other that , it being gone.

Disaster Master
(Weather Hobbyist)
Tue Aug 30 2005 10:49 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

75,000 National Gaurd.
40 countries have made pledges.


Disaster Master
(Weather Hobbyist)
Tue Aug 30 2005 10:51 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

Just got via fax that 40 Shipping containers will be barged in tomorrow and they will fill them with dredge from the river side of the mississipi. to try another repair on the 300ft portion of breeched leeve.

bobbutts
(Weather Hobbyist)
Tue Aug 30 2005 10:51 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

Quote:



The worst case scenario only required a Cat 2 in the right location, not a strong storm.

Katrina was in the right location and the west side of the storm was very week (this attenuatin could be seen prior to landfall as dry air made its way into the hurricane), so it could be compared to NO getting a Cat 2.




I was thinking today that the amazing wind speeds, and the center of the cone right over the city with Katrina before landfall saved alot of lives. Had it been an 'innocent' looking cat 1-2 come in, especially one that took a surprise path very few probably would have left and loss of life would have been worse.


StormHound
(Weather Guru)
Tue Aug 30 2005 10:52 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

Colleen, assuming they can get boats to the SuperDome, they can get them out. There are circular ramps around the outside that are open air. People inside the Dome were apparently trying to get space on the ramps to get out of the heat inside.

Colleen A.
(Moderator)
Tue Aug 30 2005 10:53 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

Oh, Margie...thank God! I am so happy to hear that! (((hugs)))

Disaster Master
(Weather Hobbyist)
Tue Aug 30 2005 10:53 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

it would be logisticaly impossible to move 30,000 people by boat from the supedome

Disaster Master
(Weather Hobbyist)
Tue Aug 30 2005 10:56 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

that is 6,000 trips @ 5 people per trip in a flat bottom boat.

Heather
(Weather Hobbyist)
Tue Aug 30 2005 10:56 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

Is it the rising water that is concern for the people in the Superdome or the lack of supplies and necessities? I know everyone is doing everything they can, it just doesn't seem like it is going fast enough. I don't have to words to explain, just being helpless while watching all of this unfold...

StormHound
(Weather Guru)
Tue Aug 30 2005 10:57 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

Quote:

it would be logisticaly impossible to move 30,000 people by boat from the supedome




Can you think of any other options? They certainly can't airlift them by helicopter. They did say something about land vehicles that have a few feet of ground clearance. I'd imagine they'd have logistical problems getting in there.


Random Chaos
(Weather Analyst)
Tue Aug 30 2005 10:57 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

Quote:

it would be logisticaly impossible to move 30,000 people by boat from the supedome




Yeah, assuming inflatables which they can put in easiest, it would take 120 inflatables on half hour round trips 24 hours to move 30,000 people.

It would probably be faster and have less chance of a riot to build a floating dock from the freeway to the superdome and let the people walk.


StormHound
(Weather Guru)
Tue Aug 30 2005 10:59 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

Quote:

that is 6,000 trips @ 5 people per trip in a flat bottom boat.




I'm not talking a small boat. I'm talking military craft that handle 50 to 100 people at a time.


Random Chaos
(Weather Analyst)
Tue Aug 30 2005 11:00 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

Quote:

Quote:

that is 6,000 trips @ 5 people per trip in a flat bottom boat.




I'm not talking a small boat. I'm talking military craft that handle 50 to 100 people at a time.




You don;t have the ground clearence for that type of craft. You're talking about keel depth of 30+ feet for most of the larger ships. You have to first get them into the city, then have them clear both the ground and all the houses and other buildings. You simply can't do it.


StormHound
(Weather Guru)
Tue Aug 30 2005 11:01 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

Have any floating docks lying around the garage long enough to cover that much ground?

I've read estimates of anywhere from 20,000 to 60,000 people in the Dome. Anyone have a relatively accurate number?


Disaster Master
(Weather Hobbyist)
Tue Aug 30 2005 11:02 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

Which road would you get the materials in from. The Flooded roads , or the Interstate that has 300ft missing from it in both directions. Im not trying to sound like a jerk, but im sure all options are on the table at this time. Superdome has 3 levels with plumbing and kitchens on all levels. The main concern is getting plumbing and fresh water to these people before complete chaos breaks out. N.O. has many gangs. Its only a matter of time before there is a riot in that dome.

evergladesangler
(Weather Hobbyist)
Tue Aug 30 2005 11:02 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

Mayor of NO is on CNN now and just 12-14k people in the Dome.

Random Chaos
(Weather Analyst)
Tue Aug 30 2005 11:03 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

Well, the floating docks they put up in Annapolis for the annual boat shows could probably cover a couple miles. I'm sure they could find enough floating docks if they put their minds to it.

As for how to get the stuff there - no idea.

But you can't get the people out by sea or air any easier.


StormHound
(Weather Guru)
Tue Aug 30 2005 11:05 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

Um, not talking about a ship either. I was thinking more along the lines of inflatables or large flat bottoms. Down here in Florida there's a lot of water only a few feet deep. We've got plenty of boats that hold a lot more than five people and only draw a few feet of water at most.

G. J.
(Weather Watcher)
Tue Aug 30 2005 11:05 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

How about the 2 female deputies or security guards "lookin' for looters" while filling their shopping cart with boxes of shoes!!!!!!! :?:

age234
(Verified CFHC User)
Tue Aug 30 2005 11:05 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

MSNBC just showed a clip of A COP looting the same Wal-Mart, doing nothing to stop the others. If I were her, I would have shot them, maybe in the leg, to be nice.

The Today show will have a full report tomorrow.

Just heard that armed groups of people are roving the French quarter. MSNBC.

This is insanity. We are supposed to be better than this. But those who aren't, I say pop 'em.


Disaster Master
(Weather Hobbyist)
Tue Aug 30 2005 11:06 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

single file the folks in that dome would stretch 2.6 miles. LOL . your talking solid, pile supported structure.

Colleen A.
(Moderator)
Tue Aug 30 2005 11:08 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

Thanks, StormHound. Glad to hear that there is a way to get them out. The Governer did say that they would have to evacuate those shelters as soon as possible, so I was wondering.
***Mayor of N.O. is on CNN right now*** To cut to the chase, he just said that "the bowl everyone talks about us living in is filling up."

Glad to hear that other countries have pledged to help. i hadn't heard anything on TV about that...might have missed it between taking breaks from watching the TV.


twizted sizter
(Weather Guru)
Tue Aug 30 2005 11:08 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

Airboats would work...there's tons of them there...don't need much water to go in & can go thru areas with lots of water...a thought.

damejune2
(Storm Tracker)
Tue Aug 30 2005 11:12 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

I didn't read the posts above - but i did see on Fox News channel airboats being used. Good idea.

Margie - So happy to hear about your brother!!! Thank goodness!!!

Mods - Any word from Danny??


CoalCracker
(Weather Hobbyist)
Tue Aug 30 2005 11:13 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

How about Germany's environment minister hinting that the US was to blame for the hurricane because of its refusal to cut greenhouse gases? Thanks for the sympathy and words of support. How about a few bucks as payback for the billions we spent to help Germany in the postwar effort? The supplies we flew in to Berlin during the Cold War? The K rations and D Bars my Dad and other GIs shared with the German people? Don't want to start a debate on global warming, so mods if you want to delete this, okay by me. It takes a lot to get me peeved. I'm there.

StormHound
(Weather Guru)
Tue Aug 30 2005 11:14 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

Quote:

Airboats would work...there's tons of them there...don't need much water to go in & can go thru areas with lots of water...a thought.




True. They can even travel short distances on land if they need to. They may not be where their owners left them, though.

It took me about three minutes on the internet to find a 24' inflatable River Runner that sits 24 people. I'm sure there are larger models.

I'm not suggesting this is the only or best way to get them out. I'm saying its one scenario I can think of that seems plausible. They may have amphibious or other types of vehicles available.


Disaster Master
(Weather Hobbyist)
Tue Aug 30 2005 11:15 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

That many boats in downtown N.O. Try telling a group of males in that dome that it is not ther turn. That they will have to wait. There boat doesnt get there for another 24 hours. See what happends then. The only opption is for those folks to wait out the water and walk out to the interstate. you talking hundreds of boats in areas where there is many under water obstructions. cars, fire hydrants, ect... it sounds like a good option, but im sure it wont be a first option. not sure its possible.

twizted sizter
(Weather Guru)
Tue Aug 30 2005 11:18 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

Women, children, sick & elderly first right? People have to be made aware of the seriousness of the situation they're in...I'd tell them wait or drown...and for what I'm sure in many cases to act like a man for once too.

Disaster Master
(Weather Hobbyist)
Tue Aug 30 2005 11:21 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

In a perfect world. Not trying to profile but come on. Seriously. The same folks are toting in pillow cases full of Nikes from foot locker on Bourbon St.

twizted sizter
(Weather Guru)
Tue Aug 30 2005 11:22 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

I'm sure even worst case desperate scenario, with what the miliatry, law/fire rescue, Coast Guard, & private citizens, if boating was the only way out they could have the resources.

Disaster Master
(Weather Hobbyist)
Tue Aug 30 2005 11:23 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

would be easier to boat in supplys, skitto cans and water.

Colleen A.
(Moderator)
Tue Aug 30 2005 11:23 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

Just a question: where would they get the gas to operate all of these boats? I did hear somebody say at the FEMA press conference that they are thinking of bringing in planes to get those people out.
Seems like so many logistical problems, none of which seem to have any good answers.
Not to be even more depressing, but my hubby is an ME and he said there is no way those levees are going to hold because the pressure of the water. He said those pumps were only supposed to withstand a Cat 2 or 3 storm.
37,000 National Guard troops are on their way to N.O. They better be running, because I have a feeling things are going to go from bad to worse inside that Dome.
We are human, yes...but when we face situations like this, we turn to survival tactics...and sometimes turn into animals. I think what we are seeing now is people trying to survive one by one.
What we need right now is the same person who parted the Red Sea to step in and part Lake Ponchatrain.


ohioaninmiss
(Weather Watcher)
Tue Aug 30 2005 11:24 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

To shift north a bit ....

Has anyone heard from Danny? He's in Hattiesburg, MS, and it got hit pretty hard, too....Katrina passed right over Hattiesburg as a CAt 1-2 and did quite a bit of damage there (not as much as the coast, of course, but pretty extensive for 90+ miles inland). I haven't seen him post since Saturday and I'm starting to get worried.


twizted sizter
(Weather Guru)
Tue Aug 30 2005 11:24 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

Hey it's not profiling it's fact...on live tv in most cases...hence my act like a man comment...I believe the Guard is armed correct...noone in there is...they were searched...one thing to run your mouth another to be packing...hopefully it wouldn't come to that.

StormHound
(Weather Guru)
Tue Aug 30 2005 11:25 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

DM, I understand that it is difficult, but what solutions do you suggest? The water is going up, not down. There are too many people in a structure that can't accomodate them. The heat must be unbearable. There must be fights happening, at least one apparent suicide already (that we know of). You want them to wait three or four weeks until the water subsides?

The military pushes armies with thousands of men many miles across all types of terrain. I'm quite certain they have vehicles that can move a few thousand people a few miles.


LI Phil
(User)
Tue Aug 30 2005 11:25 PM
margie phone call

i'm still on the phone with margie...she's going to post an update as soon as we get off...

scary s+!t still going on with all this, but at least her brother is ok...

keep the faith ya'll


StormHound
(Weather Guru)
Tue Aug 30 2005 11:28 PM
Re: margie phone call

DM, are you getting any reports about what is going on inside the SuperDome? Unless they can get some air conditioning and bedding in there, they need to get those people out ASAP. It's gotta be over 100 degrees inside there during the day. Hungry, homeless, hot and angry people aren't going to last long sleeping in bleacher seats. It's going to get really ugly, really fast. I'll cut it off at this point and leave it to the professionals.

Great news about Margie's brother. I'm sure the stories are sad, but if he survived there must be other good stories.


WhitherWeather
(Verified CFHC User)
Tue Aug 30 2005 11:29 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

Quote:

What we need right now is the same person who parted the Red Sea to step in and part Lake Ponchatrain.




I can only wonder, at that sentiment, who sent Katrina in to begin with.

WhitherWeather


Disaster Master
(Weather Hobbyist)
Tue Aug 30 2005 11:29 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

I would bet the farm that it will come to that. Right now there is a prison riot with hostages.
I would bet that within 48 hours there is a small riot inside the superdome. Anyone wanna take that bet? I have PayPal.....anyone?? Even if the 3 ft of water on the runway at N.O I A. is gone you still have to get folks to the planes. I heard a rumor of a Tent city in Nashville being erected(not a comfortable word). That was brought up in a FEMA conference call at 3pm today. So much for tail gating at the Titans game.


WiscoWx
(Registered User)
Tue Aug 30 2005 11:29 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

I'm sure there will come a time when the Superdome will be evacuated as part of the overall citywide evacuation, but if adequately policed and supplied it sounds like it has the capability to house (badly) those people for a period of time. These next few days will be the worst, but it's apparent that the federal government is mobilizing a lot of resources on both the civilian and military side for rescue, relief, and recovery. But it takes time to assemble and move those resources and the geographic scope of the devastation is a big problem.

CNN Pentagon Mobilizing is reporting that the Bataan is now in operations off Louisiana and the Iwo Jima is en route from Norfolk. These amphibious assault ("gator") carriers will be good platforms to helicopter aid into the region. It will take some time and there will be coordination issues, but the feds aren't sitting on their hands. It's an unprecedented problem and it will put a strain on planning and resources, but given that it's less than 48 hours after Gulf landfall it is evident that the mobilization is unprecedented too. Let's hope that all these efforts all the way from Homeland Security and Northern Command down to local emergency responders, plus the private charities, are up to the challenge.


twizted sizter
(Weather Guru)
Tue Aug 30 2005 11:29 PM
Re: margie phone call

Listening about another shooting....&#$%'s] with AK47s shot up apolice precinct...WTF!!! They better get control of this soon.

Disaster Master
(Weather Hobbyist)
Tue Aug 30 2005 11:34 PM
Re: margie phone call

As of 6pm est time the gaurds inside the Dome are armed. There have been several shots fired in the dome to keep the peace. There are supplies on the way to the dome. My dog chills when i give him treats. Im sure the same will apply here. MRE's and Water on the way. Enricon is sending drying equipment to the dome as well. Water will be pumped out and steady air flow will help matters. God i cant imagine the smell.

BTfromAZ
(Weather Hobbyist)
Tue Aug 30 2005 11:36 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

If you go to the German Embassy web page, you will find a clickable "contact" button. I sent them the following billet doux:

Quote:

Sirs:

I find it difficult but necessary to tell you how disgusted I am at the remarks of your Environment Minister, Herr Trittin, concerning Hurricane Katrina and the insinuation that it was caused by policies of the present US government. What an insensitive and unfriendly thing to say at a moment like this! I think your government owes an immediate apology to all Americans and I further think that in the absence of such apology, you will find a great deal of animosity toward Germany rightfully building in the American public with ultimately quite negative consequences for Germany. Do the right thing. Apologize now and relieve this tactless bureaucrat Tritten from the job for which his capabilities are so obviously inadequate.




I invite the rest of you to do something similar.


WhitherWeather
(Verified CFHC User)
Tue Aug 30 2005 11:38 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

Quote:

what happens if the water doesn't go down? I mean, is that even possible? I would assume we are looking at months and not days before the water is gone.




As I understand it, there is nowhere for the water to "go down" to from the soup bowl that is--or was--the Big Easy.

Once it fills, I think months to get that inconceivable amount of water out is a reasonable guess. If ever.

We may need to start getting aclimated to the idea of Lake New Orleans.

Even if it does somehow get reclaimed eventually, trying to extrapolate the economic impact becomes an exercise in blindly feeling the edges of infinity. Just for instance, how many businesses based there can survive and restart after that long being shut down? How many businesses there rely on the tourism? I can't easily go on. There's nowhere to go.

WhitherWeather


StormHound
(Weather Guru)
Tue Aug 30 2005 11:40 PM
Re: margie phone call

Quote:

As of 6pm est time the gaurds inside the Dome are armed. There have been several shots fired in the dome to keep the peace. There are supplies on the way to the dome. My dog chills when i give him treats. Im sure the same will apply here. MRE's and Water on the way. Enricon is sending drying equipment to the dome as well. Water will be pumped out and steady air flow will help matters. God i cant imagine the smell.




And to think this isn't worst case scenario. I guess worst case scenario would have at least taken care of the looters. This is truly a disaster like we've never seen.

DM, you have a lot of long months ahead of you.


Disaster Master
(Weather Hobbyist)
Tue Aug 30 2005 11:43 PM
Re: margie phone call

I was told to be ready for a 16 month deployment. Thats along time away from freinds and family. What a i talking about. I havent had freinds outside of work since i started this Bizz 12 years ago.
Time for a smoke break. back in 5


Kimster
(Weather Hobbyist)
Tue Aug 30 2005 11:45 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

"it would be logisticaly impossible to move 30,000 people by boat from the supedome"

I heard on the news this evening some mention of utilizing Cruise Ships. I don't know if they were discussing moving large amounts of people to a different area or using them for temporary housing.

i don't know if moving cruise ships in there is a good idea...they'd prolly just get looted


Chesapeake Phil
(Verified CFHC User)
Tue Aug 30 2005 11:47 PM
Re: margie phone call

In terms of flooding, if N.O. does, indeed, flood until it is level with Lake P., then it IS the worst case scenario. That's as far as it can flood - it makes the city indistinguishable from the lake except for the buildings, elevated highways, power lines, etc., poking above the surface. The news media is doing an OK job of explaining this, but just from talking to friends and family, I still think a lot of people can't wrap their minds around it. This is not "normal" flooding. If the water is not pumped out (and I, too, don't know how this can happen if the water level in NO becomes even with that of Lake P - where do you pump it to??), this is the permanent expansion of a lake.

I guess what you mean is that the WORST case scenario would have been the "soup bowl" filling up much faster, which would have wiped out many of the survivors who have been rescued from roofs, attics, etc.

bad scenario, but this isn't worst case. worst case would have been surge topping the levees and levee failure during the height of the storm. deeper water/more damage/climbing onto roofs more dangerous. no, the big easy got a small favor by 15 miles or so. -HF


bobbutts
(Weather Hobbyist)
Tue Aug 30 2005 11:47 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

Quote:

Right now there is a prison riot with hostages.



ABC News is reporting that this rumor is untrue


Anton Ross
(Weather Watcher)
Tue Aug 30 2005 11:48 PM
Military Mobilizing

CNN reporting that the military is sending quite a bit of help towards NO. Hospital ship from MD, Iwo Jima and 4 support ships, 4-6 minesweepers being sent in for SAR (recovery, at this point), USAF SAR copters, 200 National Guardsmen already at the SuperDome (I bet their sort of nervous), 500 Coasties are being activated from the area, and more.

Also sending in additional Navy SeaBees to assist Corps of Engineers. Carrier JFK may get sent as well.

Also reports are in that one of the fires blazing on the West side is an area heavily populated by chemical plants and refineries.

I guess my original fears about what hazards the flood waters and fires may cause are coming to fruition. I totally forgot about the human element where looting and riots are concerned, though.

This is a nervous time for NO on so many levels. Locally (Charleston, SC) we're working with a few charities to get canned goods and bottled water assembled and sent of to a staging point. It is a small effort though, compared to what needs to be done (I think).

On the WX side of things, it is interesting that Time magazine has a lede story about global warming. (CLIP: One especially sobering study from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology found that hurricane wind speeds have increased about 50% in the past 50 years. And since warm oceans are such a critical ingredient in hurricane formation, anything that gets the water warming more could get the storms growing worse.)

Maybe Mother Nature is speaking her piece?

Such a tragedy.

/Anton
that MIT study is not reputable. if you want a realistic perspective, read any of bill gray's season forecasts. he knows hurricane climatology better than most anybody. -HF


Disaster Master
(Weather Hobbyist)
Tue Aug 30 2005 11:49 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

i can hear it now via bull horn. in 10 ft of water outside. Now boarding Royal princess cruise to _ _ _ _ . Wow we are really stretching the imagination now. Once again Dome to Cruise boat.... How does this happen?

LI Phil
(User)
Tue Aug 30 2005 11:51 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

bill gray on msnbc right NOW

bobbutts
(Weather Hobbyist)
Tue Aug 30 2005 11:52 PM
Re: margie phone call

Quote:

In terms of flooding, if N.O. does, indeed, flood until it is level with Lake P., then it IS the worst case scenario. That's as far as it can flood



Had the city flooded during a storm the level would have been significantly higher because you'd have to add the storm surge to the normal lake level.


Kimster
(Weather Hobbyist)
Tue Aug 30 2005 11:53 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

funny...but most items are bolted down on cruise ships. I guess they could take the pillows, sheets, dishes and silverware. It seems like a good idea to move 2 to 3 thousand people at a time. Question is, where do you drop them off? I believe Carnival Cruise was at the port of Orleans and has at least one or two boats "homeless" right now. Might as well put them to some good use...somehow.

evergladesangler
(Weather Hobbyist)
Tue Aug 30 2005 11:53 PM
Re: Military Mobilizing

What's amazing is that the ACOE doesn't seem to have much of plan vis-a-vis the levees. The spokesman who was just on MSNBC said they had quit for tonight and the 3,000 lb. bags did not work at all. He even thought it was possible that the bowl would fill up to the point of equilibrium between the lake and city.

Kimster
(Weather Hobbyist)
Tue Aug 30 2005 11:55 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

Seriously, couldn't they shuttle them? The Cruise ship wouldn't have to pull rt. up to the Dome. Cruise lines often shuttle people to and from the islands.

BTfromAZ
(Weather Hobbyist)
Tue Aug 30 2005 11:56 PM
Attachment
Re: margie phone call

Phil and the rest: Lake Pontchartrain is not a closed system. It is open to the Gulf and is subject to tidal action. Therefore, water pumped into it will flow out into the Gulf. IF the integrity of the levees can be restored and the pumps got working, they will be able to pump the water out. I believe I recall hearing they can pump the entire city at a rate of about an inch per day. That would mean, of course, that it could take several months to pump it dry, assisted of course by evaporation and perhaps minimal absorbtion into the ground. Attached is a map of the Lake P. outlet.

StormHound
(Weather Guru)
Tue Aug 30 2005 11:56 PM
Re: margie phone call

Quote:

I guess what you mean is that the WORST case scenario would have been the "soup bowl" filling up much faster, which would have wiped out many of the survivors who have been rescued from roofs, attics, etc.




Certainly not what I mean. Many people will be saved since the flooding will happen over a couple of days instead of a few hours. I was a bit more flip than I meant to be.

They wouldn't be able to get the cruise ship into the city. If they had a spare cruise ship for housing, that might accomodate a couple of thousand people. Probably somewhat more comfortably than a tent city.


Colleen A.
(Moderator)
Tue Aug 30 2005 11:57 PM
Danny & Other Stuff

I don't remember who posted about Danny, but I can tell you this: he works the night shift dispatching ambulances, so he may be on duty and not be able to respond.
I'm not sure exactly what city this is happening in (Kennis, LA?) but they are bringing in school buses to take refugees "points north".
As for the Superdome, now I understand why they took away the combs with the pointy ends. If they are not letting anybody else in at this point, I think that the only gunshots you will hear will come from the National Guard. I have heard reports of looters breaking into sporting goods stores and taking as much ammunition as they could. That's a scary thought.
Aaron Brown made a comment about why it took so long to get more National Guard troops in...I think that it may have something to do with N.O. imposing martial law today. I don't think, as he does, that it was a case of poor planning.
Anyway...I'm off to bed...full of thanks that I have one to sleep in.
Nite all.


Chesapeake Phil
(Verified CFHC User)
Tue Aug 30 2005 11:57 PM
Re: margie phone call

Quote:

Quote:

In terms of flooding, if N.O. does, indeed, flood until it is level with Lake P., then it IS the worst case scenario. That's as far as it can flood



Had the city flooded during a storm the level would have been significantly higher because you'd have to add the storm surge to the normal lake level.




I stand corrected and apologize for overlooking that. There's a reason why I have only made six (now seven) posts in a year of being registered.

I guess I was thinking of the water that would have been around now, not what would have been there during the storm, which would have exacted a much higher death toll and caused even more (hard to believe it's possible) damage. With the surge, that would have been much, much worse, yes.


Margie
(Senior Storm Chaser)
Tue Aug 30 2005 11:58 PM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

Hi everyone thanks so much for your posts. That really means a lot to me.

I had to call some relatives and then I did talk with Phil on the phone a bit.

I was starting to get a little crazy this evening. I had exhausted all the resources I could online and the prospect of not doing anything was too much, so I called my brother's house in TX and talked to my SIL. We're talking on the phone and she shrieks that there is a call waiting and it is my SIL in Pascagoula. So they talked to her and my brother for just a couple minutes before the connection went dead.

I heard this second-hand from my brother in TX: they had been working around the clock nonstop for three days (since Sunday). They had just been given a couple hours off to get some sleep. I think that says a lot about how stretched the resources are at attempting to deal with this disaster, and how bad the disaster is. So they tried the phones again and now they were working. So the first call my SIL made was to my brother in TX.

My brother has spent the last couple days continuing search and rescue. It is very grim there. Read between the lines here. I really don't want to post any more than that.

That's all we're going to know for now. I don't care if I don't talk to him right away. All I needed to hear was that he was ok. I imagine he'll have some story to tell me when he finally gets a chance to slow down, but honestly I don't think that will be for at least a month.

In many cases I think that they are going to have to pull out of some of these areas for the short term, until sewer, electric, running water, etc. can be put back tog. I actually wonder if Pascagoula will become a ghost town. It existed really because of the shipyard, which will probably be too expensive to rebuild. So it will evolve into something else. I don't think the coast can really come back from something like this.

Again I want to say that I don't think I could have gotten through these last couple days without you guys.

We knew before many people did what was happening, and after Katrina hit (you know even typing the name makes me feel so bitter), we knew as well. None of my friends understood. So I am sorry to have kind of spilled my guts out here, and thank you all for being so supportive!


WiscoWx
(Registered User)
Tue Aug 30 2005 11:58 PM
Probably not global warming?

Maybe Clark or one of the other mets could address this....

On Morning Edition today, there was a piece on global warming and hurricanes where the experts appearing stated that the variations due to the multi-decadal signal were more significant than global warming. They also stated that large scale hurricane environment depends on contrast between ocean temps and upper atmosphere temps and that it wasn't clear that global warming affected the temperature contrast. They did hypothesize that if global warming triggered enough polar ice cap melt to shut down the Gulf Stream that tropical ocean temps would increase enough to have an impact on hurricanes, but that was a possible future condition, not a present condition. The gist, as I understood it, was that there is not evidence to attribute the heightened activity to global warming. And I say this as someone who believes that global warming is a genuine problem and would like to see restrictions on carbon emissions.


LI Phil
(User)
Wed Aug 31 2005 12:02 AM
msnbc

i believe msnbc is about to re-run the amazing helicopter footage i was watching earlier...all ya'll may want to check it out

BTfromAZ
(Weather Hobbyist)
Wed Aug 31 2005 12:03 AM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

As I posted earlier, during the 1989 earthquake in San Francisco, the Navy docked an assault ship like the Bataan at a city pier and housed a large number of people on the ship. Something similar could be done and possibly will be. Cruise ships could, of course, also be used but I'm not sure the companies would be thrilled nor can I blame them.

StormHound
(Weather Guru)
Wed Aug 31 2005 12:06 AM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

Quote:

As I posted earlier, during the 1989 earthquake in San Francisco, the Navy docked an assault ship like the Bataan at a city pier and housed a large number of people on the ship. Something similar could be done and possibly will be. Cruise ships could, of course, also be used but I'm not sure the companies would be thrilled nor can I blame them.




There are probably some older cruise ships available. There have been a lot of new ones built in recent years, they are replacing older ones. From time to time someone buys these and tries to put together a cheap cruise line. I'd expect there are at least a couple for sale. I'm sure they could be leased or bought by the government.


Disaster Master
(Weather Hobbyist)
Wed Aug 31 2005 12:07 AM
Re: msnbc

I cant pull another all nighter tonight. Im off to bed folks. Will be on in the morning.


R.P.
National Flood Insurance Program man am i tired.


BTfromAZ
(Weather Hobbyist)
Wed Aug 31 2005 12:08 AM
Re: margie phone call

Quote:


They wouldn't be able to get the cruise ship into the city. .




Sure they would. "Into the city" in the sense that the Mississippi is navigable by large ships at New Orleans. I've seen them pass by and many years back one slammed into a waterfront hotel when it lost steerage. They could dock one alongside a pier, at least it's possible.

unfortunately, most of what was once new orleans is now prolly navigable by boat


WiscoWx
(Registered User)
Wed Aug 31 2005 12:08 AM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

First off, Margie, what wonderful news!!! So glad to hear that your brother is OK.

Regarding the Gulf coast, I know it seems daunting now, but there are many attractive reasons to build there and an awesome storm like Katrina is a rare event. Things may not be the same, but rebuilding will surely happen. Perhaps with full recognition of nature's power and a greater interesting in living lightly on the land, but people (on average) are tenacious and optimistic so I am sure that these communities will not lie vacant and abandoned.


Disaster Master
(Weather Hobbyist)
Wed Aug 31 2005 12:08 AM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

MOst old cruise liners are now gambling ship spread out all over the US coast. Investors are waiting in line for them when they go out of the cruise bizz.

wiley
(Verified CFHC User)
Wed Aug 31 2005 12:11 AM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

One of the ships being sent, the Iwo Jima, also has fresh water distilling capability of 200,000 gallons a day. That may become important pretty quickly.

Margie
(Senior Storm Chaser)
Wed Aug 31 2005 12:12 AM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

Quote:

"it would be logisticaly impossible to move 30,000 people by boat from the supedome"
I heard on the news this evening some mention of utilizing Cruise Ships. I don't know if they were discussing moving large amounts of people to a different area or using them for temporary housing.

i don't know if moving cruise ships in there is a good idea...they'd prolly just get looted




Actually I love the mental image of these poor people being able to get on board what is essentially a tacky-glittery luxury hotel as a means of escape. Then I saw Phil's comment and I liked that image even better.

However, you'd first need Scotty to beam those large ships down there.


BTfromAZ
(Weather Hobbyist)
Wed Aug 31 2005 12:18 AM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

I received the following from our friend "WeatherNLU" and he asked me to pass it on:

Quote:

Hey man, I am just getting back online.....there is no high speed where I
am. Anyway, thanks a ton.....I called FEMA today and applied for assistance
and they told me that the Red Cross has hotel vouchers for some places to
stay through this. The water keeps coming up and they've pretty much given
up on New Orleans at this point, there is nothing they can do. I will try
to get back on the forum later, but if you can tell everyone thanks!

Shawn





Lake Toho - Kissimmee
(Storm Tracker)
Wed Aug 31 2005 12:19 AM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

Cruise Ships have a 12-20 foot draft. While Mississippi does suppport some cruise ships, (mostly those of a river boat nature) there are other issues (i.e. debris in the water, bridge heights if there are any, etc.) Given the fact that most cruise ships these days cost between around 3/4 million dollars, and that they book months in advance, it is doubtful that cruise lines would risk their investment, nor displace their passengers to accomodate something like this. Most are publicly held companies these days.. Though your idea would be a great idea under the proper situation.

Logistically, search, recovery, and aide, and utility companies are gonna have an awful time. First unlike many of the previous hurricanes, hotels in the area are completely booked, some of the damaged area is completely underwater, and truly a complete infrastructure needs to be built. I guess the first thing would be to get people food, water, the sick and injured to appropriate hospitals and care facilities, and people into shelters This along with more police and National guard presence and search and rescue. Secondly, insurance workers, FEMA, and SBA need to get into the area and start writing checks. Get people some money so they can start finding alternate places to live outside the disaster area. Third you would have to get the water under control and start pumping. Fourth potable water systems and sewer have to be fixed and the system decontaminated. Fourth, electrical grid needs to be fixed, replaced and power needs to be turned up for hospitals, police, fire, etc. Once this occurs, electrical workers can start restoring power.. In parallel airports, highways and etc. need to be repaired or rebuilt. Also cleanup, restoration of business, then residences.

What nightmare.


CoalCracker
(Weather Hobbyist)
Wed Aug 31 2005 12:20 AM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

Another possibility is to move the ready reserve ships at the Maritime schools for use as temporary housing. The Empire VI from SUNY Maritime was deployed as a troop carrier to get forces to and from Somalia. All are equipped with berthing facilities, kitchen facilities, etc. Believe it can accomodate about 600 people. Not sure about the capacities of the other reserve vessels.

Anton Ross
(Weather Watcher)
Wed Aug 31 2005 12:21 AM
MIT's study

Some interesting reading from MIT's Department of Earth, Atmospheric and Planetary Sciences:
http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2005/hurricanes.html

Also, some interesting counterpoint:
http://www.livescience.com/forcesofnature/ap_050731_hurricanes_stronger.html

Actually, there is quite a bit of debate about this right now, with Climatologists and Hurricane experts disagreeing over many key points.

Another interesting article from Harvard:
http://chge.med.harvard.edu/media/documents/hurricanes.pdf

Either way, doesn't change the crisis LA, MS, AL (and the U.S.) is facing with Katrina's aftermath.

Hm...Gov. of MS basically told the president not to come tour the area. (From Larry King Live)

Not sure what to make of that?

/anton


BTfromAZ
(Weather Hobbyist)
Wed Aug 31 2005 12:23 AM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

Quote:

most cruise ships these days cost between around 3/4 million dollars




I'm 99.99% sure that estimate is off by several orders of magnitude. Did you mean 3/4 BILLION?


Random Chaos
(Weather Analyst)
Wed Aug 31 2005 12:23 AM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

I realize this is sort of tangental to our topic, but...

I wonder if in the end we might have something like the Seattle underground. If you aren't familiar with this, let me explain:

Seattle was situated almost at sea level. When they got toilets, and thus sewers that had to flow downhill, they litterally raised the level of the city, but left the city with two levels: the old underground and the new above ground. The old underground is now a location where tourists can go on guided tours.

If New Orleans has to be rebuilt, I wonder if they might do something like that to preserve the historic nature of some parts of it, yet bring it above waterlevel for everyday use.


orlandocanewatcher
(Verified CFHC User)
Wed Aug 31 2005 12:25 AM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

anybody hear anything about the Eden Isles area in Slidell,LA??? My mother-in-law from that area...evacuated to Laurel, MS but still have not heard from her since the storm...I know phone service has been down, but hopefully we'll hear something tomorrow...

age234
(Verified CFHC User)
Wed Aug 31 2005 12:25 AM
Re: MIT's study

That helicopter footage of Biloxi is unbelievable.

Here's what I sent to our good friends at the Deutsche Botschaft:

Quote:

Sir/Madam,
I was disgusted to hear Germany's Environment Minister, Herr Tritten, balme the United States for the horrible disaster in the States of Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, and others. How can the German government insinuate such an absurd statement? Your government owes the United States, the States of Louisiana, Mississippi, and Alabama, and all the people affected by this disaster a sincere apology. The comments by Herr Tritten were mean-spirited and simply unnecessary at such a time as this, when hundreds, maybe thousands, have died in unimaginable conditions. If Germany doesn't apologize, you will find a lot of negative feelings and animosity toward Germany. Furthermore, such a tactless bureaucrat as Herr Tritten should be removed from his office, as he is clearly unable to fulfill his duties in a civilized fashion. Is this how Germany thanks the United States for everything they have done for your country over the decades? If not, nothing less than Herr Tritten's removal from office and Germany's sincere apology will satisfy this Floridian.
Regards,




Kudos to BT for the idea.

[edit] Whoops, I did a typo in the letter. Oh well...
you said that with more class than i'd bother to show. rude hand gestures is about all i can muster. -HF


LI Phil
(User)
Wed Aug 31 2005 12:26 AM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

Quote:

Quote:

most cruise ships these days cost between around 3/4 million dollars




I'm 99.99% sure that estimate is off by several orders of magnitude. Did you mean 3/4 BILLION?




lol...if a cruise ship cost ~$750,000, i could almost afford to buy...i donno

a room...still...them things cost as much as stadia...so yes...$750 million per, not $750 thousand per is correct


Anton Ross
(Weather Watcher)
Wed Aug 31 2005 12:35 AM
Re: MIT's study

I have to agree with age234's post that Germany's environment minister's statements (regardless of accuracy) were completely ill-timed, mean-spirited, and inappropriate. Politics...makes me sick to my stomach.

One thing I would like everyone to remember, though...since a lot of news and discussion is tuned in on New Orleans...is that Biloxi, Gulfport, Pass Christian and that stretch of the coast is utterly wiped out.

Gov. Barbour did a recent news conference and basically said that from the coast in a few miles...it is all gone.

Not damaged...not sort of destroyed...but gone.

Gone.

That's a pretty tough word to hear.

/Anton


Lake Toho - Kissimmee
(Storm Tracker)
Wed Aug 31 2005 12:43 AM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

Yep I must be tired tonight 3/4 Billion.. I worked for the Royal Caribbean for over 10 years.. Simply mistyped..

Anton Ross
(Weather Watcher)
Wed Aug 31 2005 12:45 AM
CDC

CDC is now making some good points about the 1 million homeless people (CDC estimate):

Toxic Mold
West Nile and Mosquitos
Water and airborne biologicals
Chemical saturation

This just keeps getting nastier...

Oy.
/anton


Anton Ross
(Weather Watcher)
Wed Aug 31 2005 12:50 AM
South Carolina Whackos

(lets not get into this - way off topic)

Lake Toho - Kissimmee
(Storm Tracker)
Wed Aug 31 2005 12:51 AM
Re: CDC

Do not forget about the loss of jobs and revenue.. Companies will cease to operate out of the area and will need to relocate to other areas for disaster recovery purposes.

Also as mentioned on the news gas prices, which never need an excuse to go up, but this one provides them a good excuse.. I wonder why the government hasnt tapped into the reserves yet ? Sometimes I think its a conflict of interest to have a President who is in the oil business..


ShanaTX
(Storm Tracker)
Wed Aug 31 2005 12:53 AM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

Seen on local news:

The Red Cross has opened a shelter here in Austin for not only the many people from LA here right now but also for the people say they will be bringing in from the Superdome. Logistics... dunno.

C5 cargo plane ready at Lackland AFB in San Antonio to bring in supplies.

And 2 sharks were seen in the water in the NO area.

Here's hoping everyone who hasn't checked in here yet is ok


Lake Toho - Kissimmee
(Storm Tracker)
Wed Aug 31 2005 12:54 AM
Re: South Carolina Whackos

As the story line starts off, "we knew this was comming", however, I did not expect it to be abbortion related. LOL Thought it would be more in line with deviate behavior.

age234
(Verified CFHC User)
Wed Aug 31 2005 12:55 AM
Re: South Carolina Whackos

(off-topic removed)

Sorry 'bout that. Yes, let's stay on topic. This place is about weather, so onward on to it.


WiscoWx
(Registered User)
Wed Aug 31 2005 12:56 AM
Re: MIT's study

Quote:


Hm...Gov. of MS basically told the president not to come tour the area. (From Larry King Live)

Not sure what to make of that?

/anton




I wouldn't make much of that. The President visiting the impacted area would be counterproductive at this time because it would divert resources from search, rescue, relief to his security requirements. Returning to D.C. to make sure the full resources of the federal government are applied, appealing to the nation to support the victims in Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, and extreme west Florida, and monitoring the economic impact are what he needs to do right now. After a while, it will be time for him to tour the devastation and visit the refugee camps.


Catmando
(Registered User)
Wed Aug 31 2005 01:01 AM
Re: South Carolina Whackos

(removed to match continuity of Ed's comments above)

Lake Toho - Kissimmee
(Storm Tracker)
Wed Aug 31 2005 01:02 AM
Re: MIT's study

Govenor of Louisianna was asked if she wanted Bush to come visit her state, and o seemed hesistant about answering it. I agree the President would be better off not getting in the way at this time. However, when asked what she would say to him, she said "they need help" and she seemed uncomfortable in answering that question too. It appears that she may believe things are moving fast enough. I can't blame her, being that one of the worst disasters has struck during her tenure as Governor. Can you image the massive logistical nightmare ? I feel bad for everyone involved. This is going to be a very tough recovery.

Anton Ross
(Weather Watcher)
Wed Aug 31 2005 01:06 AM
Back to incoming WX

I haven't seen too much information being generated about that wave east of the Lesser Antilles...

NHC is looking for it to potentially develop.

Thoughts from our WX experts?

/anton


LI Phil
(User)
Wed Aug 31 2005 01:10 AM
TIME OUT!

up until about 20 minutes ago the boards were what they should be...a mix of people "venting" (albeit in a couched manner), questioning, postulating, hoping and praying...

all of a sudden...it became a highly charged political forum...

not gonna happen...let's keep the posts focused on the victims and the possibilities...not on presidential politics, religious dogma and other UNRELATED activity...

questioning why bush was told not to come to mississip. is fine...making a political diatribe out of such is not...also...

posting that radar/satellite shots look like sonograms are likewise not welcome...

capice?


nate77
(Weather Hobbyist)
Wed Aug 31 2005 01:18 AM
Re: TIME OUT!

Anyone have any Satellite/Radar photos of Katrina as it hit land?

Clark
(Meteorologist)
Wed Aug 31 2005 01:19 AM
Power in S. Miss.

Power companies are reporting complete loss of power in Mississippi from Meridian southward -- this is almost a 100 mile stretch from I-20 to the coast. If you haven't heard from people that way, that may well be the reason.

Full story at http://www.sunherald.com/mld/sunherald/12517643.htm.

Good night, all.


Ed DunhamAdministrator
(Former Meteorologist & CFHC Forum Moderator (Ed Passed Away on May 14, 2017))
Wed Aug 31 2005 01:19 AM
Administrative Note

LI Phil is correct - we need to regroup.

The recent posts are drifting way off topic. This is not a political forum. If you have impact information put it in the Disaster Forum. Its time to put the focus back on the tropics. This has been a monumental event but this site is not designed to cover all aspects of it. We feel deeply for those that are hurting, but our posts will not change the magnitude of this disaster. Lets attempt to refocus on the tropics. Thanks for your help.
ED


Storm Hunter
(Veteran Storm Chaser)
Wed Aug 31 2005 01:30 AM
Re: Administrative Note

just incase you missed it.... Jason Kelley is back in PCB.....(tired, but okay)... man does he have some stories to tell. He took pictures on the way back from MS. Gray communications asked him to go to a sister station to help them with coverage... They are in a mess, but are doing okay....When he went on air tonight on WJHG 7, they played some video and it was the first time he had seen some of the aerial shots of the destruction. I am sure will hear or read his stories soon.....

Also mark s. from hurricane track had uploaded some video....
CHECK THIS OUT:

http://www.hurricanelivenet.com/katduring.wmv

this is some good video of very high winds and rain... and even a possible tornado! Now that amature videos are showing up, i'll tey to post links for all to see.....

Please if you have time.... visit http://www.redcross.org/


Terra
(Storm Tracker)
Wed Aug 31 2005 02:14 AM
Re: Administrative Note

Regarding Danny.... I spoke to him on Monday around noon (I think). He worked the night before and had been able to get home safely before the storm. I asked him to call me when the storm had safely passed, but I haven't heard back from him. I have called many times hoping to get through and even sent a text message. It could just be related to the phone problem....

Regarding Eden Isles in Slidell... I heard an account that the Old Spanish Trail area appeared to be part of the Lake. I'm thinking since Eden Isles was so close and so low that they were completely underwater. I understand water has subsided in Slidell somewhat however, and as of today north of Gause was not flooded (which doesn't mean it wasn't in Monday).

My parents in Covington were finally able to speak to a neighbor who stayed home for the storm. A lot of her area was ok, but she had what was described as 100 trees on her roof from three tornados that went through the area. The people across the street from her had to be pulled out from their house by my neighbors. These same people have been the clearing crew for the area. They rode on 4-wheelers and used chainsaws to clear roads for everyone. They felt that it would be several weeks before anyone even thought about electricity in this area... and this wasn't a hard hit area. The silver lining here is that these regular people have done a lot to help their area... I'm impressed.

I still don't know about my place... I hope it's ok, since most of my extended family lost everything and it would be nice to have something to offer.

I'm especially worried about my relatives in ocean springs, ms. They weren't very smart about evacuating and tried to return Monday afternoon to their houses. We haven't been able to talk to them since we text messaged on Monday and learned they couldn't get back in. I heard that everything south of the railroad tracks in MS was destroyed.


orlandocanewatcher
(Verified CFHC User)
Wed Aug 31 2005 03:00 AM
Re: Administrative Note

Terra-thanks for the info on Eden Isles...kinda thought that may be the case, was just hoping otherwise...hopefully she is safe. Glad she didn't stay in that area....let's just hope that in Laurel, MS she was safe.

MissBecky
(Weather Guru)
Wed Aug 31 2005 07:21 AM
Economic impacts

Do you think a comparison can be made between Katrina's effect on modern New Orleans and the 1900 hurricane in Galveston? Obviously not comparing loss of life, but in terms of economic impact. Before that hurricane, Galveston was a thriving port city. They never really did recover from the storm. I used to live in Houston, and we would drive down to Galveston on the weekends, and I was always surprised at how few people were out shopping or on the beaches. Many people who lived in Galveston actually worked in Houston, due to the depressed state of the local economy.

My question is, can New Orleans recover, or is it doomed to become another Galveston?


emackl
(Storm Tracker)
Wed Aug 31 2005 07:52 AM
Re: Economic impacts

Well, I'm impressed by my 11 year old son. He's a military know it all and dreams of going to West Point. He told me yesterday that the Navy needs to get there asap. They have special hovercraft that would be perfect for the job. Today I read this:
"The ships will carry food, fuel, medical and construction supplies, as well as hovercraft that can be used for evacuation and search-and-rescue missions." Maybe the little guy has contacts I don't know about..LOL!

I just called and told him on his way to school. Now I have strict orders to tape 9 hours of FNC so he can watch...sheesh


GuppieGrouper
(Weather Master)
Wed Aug 31 2005 07:56 AM
Re: Economic impacts

I believe that it will take time for the economic and geographic changes made on the coastline to settle. People who have survived this catastrophe will not be willing to take a chance in the area too soon. But, with this being a port of entry for shipping, it will probably come back faster than one would expect. As long as they can rebuild the oil refinaries, the rest will come due to the economics of it. But, my guess is that there will be many structural engineers consulted in how to make it more storm proof. There is tax write off loss and there is digging a hole and burying it in concrete. Katrina deep sixed the economy for about 10 years in that area. By the way, there is still standing water in Seabring Florida from last year's hurricanes with houses that were abandoned when the water was up to the windows. A new map of low lying areas around the coastal regions will have to be formulated. We are in a different weather era. I personally would love to see the Government take over all the waterfront property in Tropical Storm prone areas and turn into parks and recreations areas that could not be used for anything other than business,such as restaurants or non -inhabitable activities. This would free up the coast lands to be available for everyone to see the view, but no one would be able to get the impression that they were safe from hurricanes and then the evacuation processes in most cases would be much less trouble. I am talking about the coastal areas directly facing the ocean for one to five miles inland. Every one could predict this storm was coming, but no one could say which year, until it was too late.

collegemom
(Weather Hobbyist)
Wed Aug 31 2005 07:59 AM
Re: Administrative Note

Does anyone know exactly how high the river is at this stage? Do we have an estimate on how much rain has fallen in the river valleys (mississippi and ohio) that drain back to the gulf? I realize it will take a day or two for the upriver water to flow and I only hope this is not our next crisis.

AndyG
(Weather Watcher)
Wed Aug 31 2005 08:03 AM
Re: Administrative Note

Just read on Foxnews.com that some of the oil reserves are going to be released.

emackl
(Storm Tracker)
Wed Aug 31 2005 08:09 AM
Re: Administrative Note

Sadly, it's not going to be easy to refine it. As long as the refineries are shut down it's almost useless. My guess it's being done to ease the public emotionally. There's so much talk of doom and gloom that hopefullly it will work.

Random Chaos
(Weather Analyst)
Wed Aug 31 2005 08:10 AM
Re: Administrative Note

NO mayor just said on NBC that he's heard that one of the levees may have been successfully repaired.

Let us hope it was.


Margie
(Senior Storm Chaser)
Wed Aug 31 2005 08:16 AM
Re: Administrative Note

That is so sad. People come first, and that is the worst part, the loss of life, but also so many beautiful and charming places. Ocean Springs had all those beautiful tiny historic homes in that downtown area...and the Walter Inglis Museum! I often thought I would like to eventually move to either Ocean Springs or Bay St Louis/Pass Christian area, to be living in an area where there was a thriving artist community. And all the beautiful oak trees on the drive along Hwy 90, along the entire coast.

Except for the casinos (which I think ruined Harrison County) the coast was beautiful.

I realized last night though that as horrible as things are now, and as inconceivable as the cleanup is, that it will be cleaned up, and people will rebuild. It will take years though, and I think after we get past the first year, a long-term economic plan for the entire area. I think now that the country will really be surprised at the determination of the coastal communities to get back on their feet. What was I thinking yesterday. Of course people will rebuild.


bucagator
(Registered User)
Wed Aug 31 2005 08:17 AM
Re: Economic impacts

Quote:

By the way, there is still standing water in Seabring Florida from last year's hurricanes with houses that were abandoned when the water was up to the windows.




I'm afraid I have to disagree with this statement. I live in Wauchula (20 miles from Sebring) and took the brunt of all 3 central FL 'canes. My business has trucks that cover all of Highlands County and can think of no standing water from last year. In fact, Sebring received virtually no damage when compared to Wauchula and Arcadia. Sebring sits atop the Lake Wales Ridge and the only flooding one can find is when someone built a home on property that used to be a lake or creek but dried up as water usage surpassed water replenishment. Many central Florida lakes nearly dried up in the '80's and '90's only to refill as the rainfall levels increased over the last few years.


FlaRebel
(Weather Hobbyist)
Wed Aug 31 2005 08:19 AM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

Quote:

Hi everyone thanks so much for your posts. That really means a lot to me.

I had to call some relatives and then I did talk with Phil on the phone a bit.

I was starting to get a little crazy this evening. I had exhausted all the resources I could online and the prospect of not doing anything was too much, so I called my brother's house in TX and talked to my SIL. We're talking on the phone and she shrieks that there is a call waiting and it is my SIL in Pascagoula. So they talked to her and my brother for just a couple minutes before the connection went dead.

I heard this second-hand from my brother in TX: they had been working around the clock nonstop for three days (since Sunday). They had just been given a couple hours off to get some sleep. I think that says a lot about how stretched the resources are at attempting to deal with this disaster, and how bad the disaster is. So they tried the phones again and now they were working. So the first call my SIL made was to my brother in TX.

My brother has spent the last couple days continuing search and rescue. It is very grim there. Read between the lines here. I really don't want to post any more than that.

That's all we're going to know for now. I don't care if I don't talk to him right away. All I needed to hear was that he was ok. I imagine he'll have some story to tell me when he finally gets a chance to slow down, but honestly I don't think that will be for at least a month.

In many cases I think that they are going to have to pull out of some of these areas for the short term, until sewer, electric, running water, etc. can be put back tog. I actually wonder if Pascagoula will become a ghost town. It existed really because of the shipyard, which will probably be too expensive to rebuild. So it will evolve into something else. I don't think the coast can really come back from something like this.

Again I want to say that I don't think I could have gotten through these last couple days without you guys.

We knew before many people did what was happening, and after Katrina hit (you know even typing the name makes me feel so bitter), we knew as well. None of my friends understood. So I am sorry to have kind of spilled my guts out here, and thank you all for being so supportive!




Margie, I'm so thankful you got good news!!! When you finally get to talk to him, let him know we all appreciate the job he and his comrades are doing.


Margie
(Senior Storm Chaser)
Wed Aug 31 2005 08:23 AM
Re: Economic impacts

Quote:

Do you think a comparison can be made between Katrina's effect on modern New Orleans and the 1900 hurricane in Galveston? Obviously not comparing loss of life, but in terms of economic impact. Before that hurricane, Galveston was a thriving port city. They never really did recover from the storm. I used to live in Houston, and we would drive down to Galveston on the weekends, and I was always surprised at how few people were out shopping or on the beaches. Many people who lived in Galveston actually worked in Houston, due to the depressed state of the local economy.

My question is, can New Orleans recover, or is it doomed to become another Galveston?




That briefly crossed my mind, but then I decided that I'd rather not make comparisons. I don't think there is anything to compare to this.

We do need the MS river for transportation; it is absolutely essential for the rest of the country, and so whatever else happens, the river channel will be repaired. Whatever is decided about NO proper, somewhere along the river they will build whatever is required to support a port.

Beyond that - perhaps long term the coastal communities may decide to rebuild some businesses north of I-10, to minimize economic inpact in future storms. Wouldn't it be nice if the coast recovered but went back to being less industrialized. Guess I'm daydreaming.


Margie
(Senior Storm Chaser)
Wed Aug 31 2005 08:30 AM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

They really are heroes down the line. They knew their own homes were going to be destroyed, and they just went to work at the EOC on Sunday. And I know my brother would have helped people survive even if it meant he did not make it. I have to say I am probably just not made of that same stuff. Going out and doing rescue after rescue in those conditions, and only being sorry that you couldn't do more rescues.

Now they are working around the clock with hardly any sleep, to get as many survivors as they can.

I guess after a couple days that will slow down and I don't know what the focus is after that, I guess getting everyone that survived a place to live in. I don't think tents are going to work down there, with the fire ants and such. I think in a couple days that is what is going to be hardest for them; having some time finally to go back to what is left of their home, and facing the long-term recovery effort.


Floridacane
(Weather Guru)
Wed Aug 31 2005 08:45 AM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

Just announced on CNN, NO airport opened for limited use. No commercial flights, but they say medical and other help is on the way.

Margie
(Senior Storm Chaser)
Wed Aug 31 2005 08:46 AM
Categorizing Katrina

I think this storm will be the impetus for recategorizing storms.

Katrina was so large that it didn't matter that she weakened to a Cat 4 before landing. I think the sheer size may have helped increase the height of the storm surge beyond what was anticipated.

I keep hearing reports that say, "This is where the eye of Katrina landed." I don't think half those newscasters even understand that she was so large that the eye actually landed...everywhere. It is hard to go from our set mental image of the size of the eye and its effects that we've seen from all the previous hurricanes in our lifetimes, and then look at this one. It just can't be seen in the same way.

The eyewall upon landing curved all along the entire east shoreline of LA from south of NO up to Slidell, and around to the entire MS coastline right up to the Biloxi/Gulfport area. All those areas were hit at once as the large eye neatly slid into a position that happened to approxmiate 60 miles of coastline. But because of the strong NE quad, the effects on the the 40 mi of coastline to the east of Biloxi, approximately up to Mobile Bay area, also suffered the same catastrophic events and a storm surge nearly as high as the coast that was hit by the eye. Ocean Springs, just to the right of the NE eyewall, suffered damage as extreme as Biloxi.

The second effect relating to the size of Katrina is that she went the entire 15 rounds and then some. Because of her large size, even going at a good clip she produced significant winds over a more than 24-hour period. For those on the coast, the storm went on and on and on. And I think that the intensity of damage needs to be related to the duration of the storm as well as the highest wind speed.

Once the hurricane force winds came ashore in Pascagoula, it wasn't long before roofs came off of buildings, including the Jackson Co EOC; maybe about a half hour. But those winds didn't abate. They increased, and stayed over 90mph for I believe 4-5 more hours. That has to become a factor in damage categorization. All Cat 4 storms produce devastating damage, but this one produced it on a larger scale simply because of its size.


MadDog
(Weather Hobbyist)
Wed Aug 31 2005 08:53 AM
Re: Categorizing Katrina

Have we heard from Rick on Boat in Mobile?

LI Phil
(User)
Wed Aug 31 2005 08:58 AM
Re: Categorizing Katrina

Quote:

Have we heard from Rick on Boat in Mobile?




i think we're about to


Margie
(Senior Storm Chaser)
Wed Aug 31 2005 09:15 AM
Re: Categorizing Katrina

Quote:

Quote:

Have we heard from Rick on Boat in Mobile?




i think we're about to




No kidding! That's great.


Rick on boat in Mobile
(Weather Drama Guru)
Wed Aug 31 2005 09:16 AM
words are inadequate to describe Katrina

Back at work today....

Dodged a bullet. This was an unbelievable storm...you can't imagine....have to see the news...and it's worse than that...gas lines here...power out in most places. But power is being restored.

All the coast of Mississippi has been wiped clean......completely....
Dauphin Island, south of me 20 miles....lost 90% of their homes
My boat is inland about 15 miles. Sustained bridge damage, popped the radar off, and broke my steering wheel topside. No big deal. Boat did well...the storm surge jammed the boat into the roof....

but across the river....heavy devastation. Turner Marine....lost almost ALL of their sailboats...piled on top of one another...(those that weren't thrown up river 2-3 miles...)

but Mobile, all in all had less wind damage than Ivan...but the storm surge was somewhere in the 20' range...and downtown Mobile had water ...but not like New Orleans...not close.

Probably hundreds of thousands of boats,....gone.

Had that storm kicked right just 50 miles...and the story would be a little different.

New Orleans will NEVER be the same....period...

Entire coast of Mississippi...all the beautiful Antebellum homes....GONE....
just sad......depressing...and the part that hurts are the lives lost. NO REASON to stay...some lady in the gas line yesterday...told me her parents called from Gulf Port....(they were about 4 blocks from the beach) and they were scared and crying..because they were in ankle deep water.....and it was rising....this was 4-5 hours BEFORE the storm hit...and they said..."we can't leave now...it's too late"....

she was wondering what happened to them...I didn't say a word. but a wall of water 30' was on the way...and she couldn't imagine that...and I wasn't gonna tell her....

WHY would people stay?...I can't understand that...

they won't now.

anyhow...I'm out of words...but the storm I knew was coming one day..the one we ALL knew was coming....came.

there will be more of them...and we have to build smarter...and wiser.


tpratch
(Moderator)
Wed Aug 31 2005 09:22 AM
Re: words are inadequate to describe Katrina

Sobering news Rick, but we're all very glad that you're okay.

As for why people would stay, the only thing more amazing than the goodness people can display at times like these, is the absolute idiocy which others will display at times like these...


emackl
(Storm Tracker)
Wed Aug 31 2005 09:22 AM
Re: words are inadequate to describe Katrina

So glad your OK Rick! Stay safe.

Has there been any more news on the hotels in the Panhandle not letting the refugees stay because of the football game?


LI Phil
(User)
Wed Aug 31 2005 09:23 AM
Re: words are inadequate to describe Katrina

rick...

thanks for checking in...you would not believe how many pm's (and of course posts on the boards as well) i got inquiring if you had made it...thank god you're alive, that's all i can say! what you and millions of others now face is daunting, unprecedented...scary

but the important thing is that you are alive

.......................

on a completely unrelated note, i just wanted to convey one thing: my weather here...katrina's remnants are making their way well west of me, but the air is as moist and tropical as i can ever remember feeling...worse by far than any of the remnants of last years storms that eventually made their way up here...this just shows to go ya just how STRONG katrina was/is...very windy now (and last year ivan's remnants ripped siding off my condo...so these things can still pack a whallop more than 1,000 miles from their original landfall)...i can only imagine how bad it had to have been down south ...well, no i can't.

peace ya'll & KEEP THE FAITH!


ohioaninmiss
(Weather Watcher)
Wed Aug 31 2005 09:38 AM
Re: words are inadequate to describe Katrina

Quote:


on a completely unrelated note, i just wanted to convey one thing: my weather here...katrina's remnants are making their way well west of me, but the air is as moist and tropical as i can ever remember feeling..




Phil - that is exactly what I was thinking here in Ohio - I left work last night about 8, it had been pouring rain all day and was still falling - the air reminded me of a florida rainstorm - very warm, very sticky.

(As a side note - I was pointing out to my students that the water falling from the sky came all the way from the Gulf of mexica and was the same storm (albeit much, much , much weaker) that hit the coast. They were amazed...they had never really thought of it that way).


twizted sizter
(Weather Guru)
Wed Aug 31 2005 09:39 AM
Re: words are inadequate to describe Katrina

Rick...good to hear you're o.k....guess the people in the Superdome are being bused to Houston Astrodome...at least they'll have working facilities...didn't hear how they'll get them to the buses though...sadder every day.

The Force 2005
(Storm Tracker)
Wed Aug 31 2005 09:46 AM
Re: Categorizing Katrina

Phil,

My previous post looks like it was sent to graveyard. I want the oppurtunity for eveyone to see and read that link. It is not political in nature, understanding the rules that govern this blog, but it is in response to remarks to what Germany has stated, and this link is a must read. Where are all of our Allies in this catasropy? This link will shed some light. We need help, or should I say everyone along the Gulf Coast needs help, regardless where it comes from. My heart goes out to all, and will be donating to the Red Cross immediately, as well as everyone should. Right Now. Please allow your poster to read this link, and if you feel negative about, then remove it. But let them have a say on it first.

http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/7143/Diesel5.html

not that it makes any difference, but i didn't move your post...another mod did


RyanRedCross1
(Verified CFHC User)
Wed Aug 31 2005 10:01 AM
Re: Categorizing Katrina

Once again, I can't thank you all enough for the support the Red Cross is getting on this message board!

Many people, and probably here more than a lot of places, realizes what a major relief effort this will be.


Rick on boat in Mobile
(Weather Drama Guru)
Wed Aug 31 2005 10:08 AM
oil rigs may be everywhere...

There's an oil rig banging on the side of Cochran Bridge, here in Mobile, and another flipped over on the beach at Dauphin Island....

there's talk of gas rationing


BillThePoet
(Registered User)
Wed Aug 31 2005 10:15 AM
Frank P Update

Hello, group. Thank you for providing the most coherent and informative updates available.

I spoke with Frank P this morning. Frank and I have been friends and co-workers for 23 years. He and his family are safe.

I won't share his story here, because as good a rocket scientist as he is (and he _is_ a great one), he's a better story teller. I'll only share that he asked to tell you all that his new storm shutters did not quite work as planned.

Again, Frank P and his family are safe.

BillThePoet


Jeffmidtown
(Weather Guru)
Wed Aug 31 2005 10:18 AM
Re: oil rigs may be everywhere...

Good morning from Atlanta....

According to Miles O'Brien in Biloxi, the state death toll due to Katrina has risen unofficially to 130. All the casinos in Biloxi have been destroyed and according to CNN, 80-90% of bulidings in Gulfport and Biloxi have either been severly damaged or destroyed.

Also on CNN, Fox News Channel and AP, they are planning to take all the evacuees to the Astrodome by "any means possible". They are showing the USS Shreveport leaving Norfolk, Va right now heading for the gulf coast with supplies and water for the survivors there.

Also, a number of radio stations here are doing events or sending people to the Atlanta Red Cross Headquarters for information on donations and to volunteer. I do know that one of Clear Channel's afternoon hosts Pete Davis said on air yesterday that he is going to volunteer for a couple of weeks using his vacation time.

Also, have heard that ALL radio stationsin New Orleans area regardless of who owns them are simulcasting WWL-AM as well as pooling all their resources to help out.

Finally, on the Drudge Report website, there may be a presidntial address tonight to talk about the tragedy as well as a call for energy conservation.


emackl
(Storm Tracker)
Wed Aug 31 2005 10:19 AM
Re: Frank P Update

"I'll only share that he asked to tell you all that his new storm shutters did not quite work as planned."

Not only is he safe but his sense of humor too..lol! That's great news.


HanKFranK
(User)
Wed Aug 31 2005 10:19 AM
Re: oil rigs may be everywhere...

yeah, haven't heard much about the offshore rigs.. but i'd imagine katrina did them worse than ivan did last year.
quick runthrough of the tropics... two potential fishspinners in former td 13 (which is moving north to the east of bermuda and getting more organized) and 91L.. which is moving NW and slated for a similar track. the shear zone it appears to be breaking has peeled back the convection enough to see a well defined llc.. could have been rated yesterday. when/if the convection gets back over the center, it probably will.
invest 92L is being tracked south of the cape verdes. it will have to maintain for a couple of days before doing anything, but computer models are more favorable to this one than the other two (though the other two are tracked as discrete features, neither is developed a great deal).
numerous models still showing a response feature caught underneath the large high slated to dive into the NE this weekend. they vary from showing it well off the east coast to just east of florida, to even in the gulf. it looks synoptically sound, so i wouldn't be surprised if it tries to develop... may be shear issues for it as the trough bypasses and a piece splits away to the west.
SOI has been pulsing up and down all month. the result is plenty of backing in the deep tropics but also plenty of upper lows and shear zones to negotiate. with more poleward moving systems late in september and in october, this sort of pattern could support a very active late season in the caribbean/near the east coast... but it has plenty of time to transition. will see.
HF 1419z31august


Margie
(Senior Storm Chaser)
Wed Aug 31 2005 10:25 AM
Re: words are inadequate to describe Katrina

Quote:

All the coast of Mississippi has been wiped clean......completely....
Entire coast of Mississippi...all the beautiful Antebellum homes....GONE....just sad......depressing...




Well you know what, I was thinking about that this morning.

And people who are not from the South aren't aware of the deep connection to local history, but I was thinking that aside from the sadness of the loss of life and property, the thing that is going to hurt people of the coast in their hearts is the loss of the history.

All along the MS coast were homes that had lasted 150 years. You live there and you think, well nothing is going to come along that will knock those down because they've been here for 150 years and survived all those hurricanes.

I think it is the loss of the beauty and charm and history that is going to hurt. Nobody down there wants some spanking new modernized coastline; they want back what they had.

I am so sad thinking about it. Every time I went back to visit I would be so happy to take a drive down Hwy 90 for the day. Of course the casinos in Harrison County were an eyesore, but other than that the coast had remained remarkably the same as it was when I was growing up. Now a vital part of what made the coast what it is, is just gone.

I am real happy to see that a lot of the old oaks are still standing, even right behind Hwy 90! I hope they live. For about 24 hours I thought the coast was done and then I snapped back to my senses. Of course it will come back because the people who live there are not the kind of people to walk away; it is their home, and there is no other place in the US that is like the south, and so they will rebuild it.


StormKrone
(Weather Watcher)
Wed Aug 31 2005 10:31 AM
Re: words are inadequate to describe Katrina

So good to hear that Rick and Frank P. are well. It is amazing how 'attached' one can become to fellow board members.

During the storms traversing Florida last year, I often spoke of my "guys"... not totally gender identifying but rather the 'homey' feel of the boards. And the information has been top-rate..

With Katrina, I am sooo hungry for good news.. and knowing ya'll are safe is GOOD news.


NewWatcher
(Storm Tracker)
Wed Aug 31 2005 10:33 AM
Re: words are inadequate to describe Katrina

Quote:

So good to hear that Rick and Frank P. are well. It is amazing how 'attached' one can become to fellow board members.




Yes now If we could just hear from Danny


Margie
(Senior Storm Chaser)
Wed Aug 31 2005 10:35 AM
Re: Frank P Update

Quote:

Hello, group. Thank you for providing the most coherent and informative updates available.

I spoke with Frank P this morning. Frank and I have been friends and co-workers for 23 years. He and his family are safe.

I won't share his story here, because as good a rocket scientist as he is (and he _is_ a great one), he's a better story teller. I'll only share that he asked to tell you all that his new storm shutters did not quite work as planned.

Again, Frank P and his family are safe.

BillThePoet




Oh I love that he said that!


charlottefl
(Weather Hobbyist)
Wed Aug 31 2005 10:37 AM
Re: words are inadequate to describe Katrina

I agree with the post about history. I live in Port Charlotte. I went to school in Punta Gorda. My high school was built in 1926 and has a lot of tradition. Also the whole town of Punta Gorda does, built and settled in the late 1800's , When Charley came through he destroyed my high school and many of the things that make this place my home. And they will put new buildings up and new houses up but I prefer it the way it was. All I can say though is we were blessed in Charley that the storm was extreme wind and very little surge, and we can clearly that wind may do severe damage but storm surge is the real killer.

THROWIN
(Registered User)
Wed Aug 31 2005 10:39 AM
Re: Categorizing Katrina

It's a nice article but it was broadcasted in 1973!
http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/g/gordonsinclair.htm


The Force 2005
(Storm Tracker)
Wed Aug 31 2005 10:45 AM
Re: Categorizing Katrina

I already knew that, I wanted to remind everyone of where we stand as a country during a catastropic event as this (Alone")

Truly ashamd at no responses giving so far to our country from any other country in the world as of today, 31 August 2005.

Americans are the first to respond everywhere in the world. I wanted to bring to light again, about that article.


Beaumont, TX
(Storm Tracker)
Wed Aug 31 2005 10:45 AM
Re: Katrina Aftermath Continues

I just heard they are moving the people from the Superdome to the Astrodome in Houston. I was glad to hear this.
This disaster is the nation's disaster and I hope the federal government will be responding quickly. We have evacuees housed at our
Ford Center here in Beaumont. The people of Southeast Texas are praying for our neighbors in Louisiana, Mississippi, and Alabama
during this difficult time.


DJINFLA
(Weather Watcher)
Wed Aug 31 2005 10:47 AM
Re: Categorizing Katrina

That letter by Mr. Sinclair seems identical to one that made its rounds just after 9/11. Still applies today.

The Force 2005
(Storm Tracker)
Wed Aug 31 2005 10:48 AM
Re: Categorizing Katrina

Exactly my thoughts as well.

Beaumont, TX
(Storm Tracker)
Wed Aug 31 2005 10:50 AM
Re: MIT's study

I think the President should visit as quickly as possible.

TheSkyGuy-in-OZ
(Registered User)
Wed Aug 31 2005 10:50 AM
Re: Categorizing Katrina

Hi, to all
I've just signed up after a week of using your site for Hurricane information
Firstly I'd like to say I'm saddened by all your losses of life and hoping mother nature will be kinder in the future
But I need to let you know that people in Australia (and I guess other countries) get there information
on these events from your main stream media and they have been telling us (up to about now) that
katrina's impact only caused some flooding and roof damage
One of my friends even told me he herd a report on TV from CNN the Katrina was over-hyped?
I think this is why it has taken us and other countries so long to respond to this disaster
I donít watch any TV or listen to radio, and all my information has come from you guys here
(And a great job you are doing too)
Now that the truth is filtering thou, people are shocked (and finally believing what I've been telling them)
and will be trying to help in any way possible

Anyway I hope my post is suitable for this dissuasion

I am hoping the storms will be Lesser in the coming month and years for you
We are expecting a more intense cyclone season this year and next and are hoping we donít get a Katrina

Stay Safe, Think Smart, Leave Before The Storm!!!


Beaumont, TX
(Storm Tracker)
Wed Aug 31 2005 10:55 AM
Re: Categorizing Katrina

Katrina is not overhyped. The devastation is overwhelming. Many people in these areas did not have the means to get out.
Many live paycheck to paycheck. Now they have no place to go. The death toll will rise as more dead will be found.
Food and water are needed desparately. The people housed in the Superdome are going to have to be moved and are supposed to
moved to Houston. This is one of the worst natural disasters in U.S. history.


The Force 2005
(Storm Tracker)
Wed Aug 31 2005 10:58 AM
Re: Categorizing Katrina

Thank you so much for your deep sympathies from down under, please get the word out. The internet has been saturated with this story, I find it hard to believe that no one goes to CNN or FOX News Website to see this catastrophic event that is unfolding in our great Nation of ours.

firestar_1
(Weather Hobbyist)
Wed Aug 31 2005 10:58 AM
Re: MIT's study

Quote:

I think the President should visit as quickly as possible.



I for one would have to totally disagree. If he were to go into the area the police and other resources would have to be pulled away from looking for people and other rescue operations. He can wait a few or several days when things become more stable. There are way too many other important needs that need to be met first. Things like shelter, food, water, medical, safety....


The Force 2005
(Storm Tracker)
Wed Aug 31 2005 11:04 AM
Re: MIT's study

I agree, but he can do a helicopter/plane ride to veiw the enormous devastation that surrounds the Gulf Coast. That way, the resources needed won't be as great if he were to travel by car or on foot.

The Force 2005
(Storm Tracker)
Wed Aug 31 2005 11:05 AM
Re: MIT's study

Remember, the rules have been relaxed, but we must be careful to not announce political items on this blog.

Ed DunhamAdministrator
(Former Meteorologist & CFHC Forum Moderator (Ed Passed Away on May 14, 2017))
Wed Aug 31 2005 11:07 AM
Re: MIT's study

Mike has started a new thread.

Remember that political opinion or comment is really not appropriate on this site.

Use the Disaster Forum for specific information or questions.

Finally, please try to eliminate one-liners - CFHC is not a chat room, it is a Forum-oriented site.

Thanks for your help.
ED


rmbjoe1954
(Weather Master)
Wed Aug 31 2005 11:08 AM
Presidential Visit?

A visit from the president would be too premature and would divert resources needed elsewhere. The president can help by ensuring that the military, Energy Dept, and the private sector can work with the impacted local governments in providing the manpower, food, water and developing sites for sheltering tens of thousands who have lost everything for a period that may very well exceed 1 year.

He can also help by ensuring we obtain the refining capabiltities to ensure the national energy needs are provided.

He can accomplish this from Washington and not be in the way in the stricken areas. This is about logistics, it is not poiltical.


Leia
(Registered User)
Wed Aug 31 2005 11:09 AM
Re: Categorizing Katrina

Quote:

I already knew that, I wanted to remind everyone of where we stand as a country during a catastropic event as this (Alone")

Truly ashamd at no responses giving so far to our country from any other country in the world as of today, 31 August 2005.




This is not the case. Specifically, Venezuela offered support yesterday morning. Saudi Arabia is offering to hike oil production to help. Also, yesterday DisasterMaster stated that 40 countries have offered support: http://flhurricane.com/cyclone/showflat....=true#Post52737


firestar_1
(Weather Hobbyist)
Wed Aug 31 2005 11:10 AM
Re: MIT's study

deleted-getting off topic

JMII
(Weather Master)
Wed Aug 31 2005 01:30 PM
Re: words are inadequate to describe Katrina

Quote:

WHY would people stay?...I can't understand that...
they won't now.




This could be the curse or blessing of this horrible storm. When warnings go up now your going to see everyone scramble to get out resulting in long lines of traffic, no gas on highways/interstates, accidents and who knows what else. On the other hand maybe now people will listen and not stay... thus in the end lives will be saved. I know here in S FL people are going to board up and get out even if Cat1 comes since Katrina caught many off guard.

Now for an actual weather related question
I've read reports and seen picture of cars that "exploded" in the storm - IE: trunks open, windows blow OUT (not broken in) and the like. During Andrew we were all told that you should not crack a window slightly open to relieve the pressure and that whole pressure/exploding house stuff was just a wives tale from days before good science taught us better. Any comments on this? Thanks.



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