Unregistered User
(Unregistered)
Mon Jul 07 2008 11:02 AM
A few changes with Bertha

Update - Saturday 07/12 11:30AM ET

Tropical Storm Warning is now in effect for the island of Bermuda.

Bertha is a ragged looking tropical cyclone. Like much of yesterday, Bertha is composed of a massive eye and outer band of moderate convection, with a remnant inner eye and occasional attempts at eye-wall rattling around inside. Her movement has been virtually stationary over the last 6 hours. Dvorak numbers have eased by 5kts and her intensity is being officiated at 75kts. The stationary nature of Bertha may mean that SSTs are beginning to cool due to upwelling, and if so this would also begin to contribute to weakening.

The forecast essentially is unchanged. There seems to somewhat better agreement among the models that she will stagnate for another 2 days, but then slowly...ever so slowly begin to move north and eventually northeast or east.

John (typhoon_tip)

Update - Friday 07/11 7:00PM ET

Tropical Storm watch remains in effect for the island of Bermuda.

Bertha continues to go through structural changes in her core. As of 5pm, the new advisory has set Bertha's winds at 80kts. Since then, the inner eye-wall appears to be trying to close off again. Light shear and still amply warm waters could mean some intensification should that be the case. The rest (below) unchanged from the 4:30pm update...



All available guidance combined indicates that Bertha will likely become a west Atlantic meandering menace to shipping, and perhaps a threat to Bermuda. It is still unclear exactly what that threat will be and how long it will persist. Steering field remains weak and is only providing for a slow northwest motion over the last 24 hours, and this looks to continue right through day 3. Beyond that, there is divergence in the guidance, ranging from slow northeast motion...to turning back south in response to a stronger ridge. Intensity is forecast by NHC to very slowly decay over the 5 days. However, most of the 12z guidance I've evaluated suggest only modest weakening, and some depictions, such as the CMC, actually show a stronger system, days 4 and 5. It is extremely tedious to attempt to seek out minute factors that may or may not effect track and intensity, which is also susceptible to perturbation and emergence, therefore unknown at this time, to begin with. The over synoptic scheme, however, flexes the ridge north of Bertha in about 3 days, and this is really the impetus for showing the very slow, erratic, and even south motions day 4-6. Either is plausible at this time. In the nearer term, obviously interest in Bermuda need to monitor the progress of this storm.

Lastly, a growing consensus among the Global models is that a new CV tropical cyclone will get going between 60 and 72 hours, and do a similar act to Bertha in racing across the Atlantic at ludicrous speeds. This remains to be seen, but there is a TW nearby southeast of the CV islands.

John (typhoon_tip)

Update - Thursday 07/09 7:00PM ET
Bertha went through some interesting structural changes during this afternoon. The cyclone now has concentric eye-walls, the outer most being 75 nautical miles in diameter, while the inner is 10 miles in diameter. As is usually the case, when this outer eye-wall was established it robbed some of the inflow into the inner eye-wall, causing it to weaken. For these reasons and a recession it the Dvorak numbers, Bertha's wind speed has been reduced to 75kts (~85mph). Just in the last 1 hour of IR imagery, however, the inner eye-wall appears to have strengthened, as a solid ring of cold cloud tops has just exploded and wrapped around. Overall, shear remains low and water temperature ample to sustain further strengthening. However, this is obviously predicated on Bertha's own structural morphologies not getting in the way of things. Probably fluctuations in intensity is the best way to go for now.

The forecast philosophy has also changed some. In the short term, a continued northwest to north drift is likely, in response a low amplitude trough currently moving by north of Bertha's location. There after the picture has become complicated. The last 24 hours of modeling have shifted the thinking away from the 2nd trough (day 4-5) being able to pick up Bertha and accelerate her finally to the graveyard. As far as I can tell there are no global model depictions during the day today that successfully pull Bertha north of middle latitudes, right through day 5. The National Hurricane Center confirms this thinking. Instead, the consensus has now shifted toward Bertha getting trapped amid a re-strengthened ridge axis nearby SE-E-NE of Bermuda, to rattle around for days. That said, it appears we will be tracking Bertha for quite some time.

There may be other areas of interest over the next week, as well. Both the ECM and GFS have been pegging another potential TC genesis of CV origin approaching the Windward Islands...just as an early heads up.

John (typhoon_tip)

Update - Thursday 07/09 12:30PM ET
The only substantial change to note about hurricane Bertha this mid day is that the cloud tops have warmed slightly in the CDO region, and the eye has become less impressive. This has lead to Dvorak numbers that have settled back to 77kts. The TPC has officiated the winds to be 80kts (just over 90mph), but also suspect this to be generous. It is unclear what is causing this recent weakening trend (what's new in intensity guidance) as outflow remains fairly good, shear is low, and water temperatures are amply warm. The best that I, personally, can surmise is that there is dry air in the vicinity, and it may be that Bertha has been occasionally ingesting this stable air. The following is the WV image provided by NOAA:


Nevertheless, since the majority of parameters are in good shape it is more likely that Bertha will at least fluctuate in intensity over the next 3 days.

There is currently a trough pressing into the northwest Atlantic. As this passes the longitudes of Bertha, it will continue to create and impetus to move her north, albeit at slow rates of speed. In about 3 days, however, this trough will have left the longitudes of Bertha and a ridge will attempt to regain control north of Bermuda, prior to the next trough scheduled to arrive around day 4 or 5. The evolution of these events should ultimately force Bertha toward the graveyard. However, interests in Bermuda need to monitor this because as the latter ridge temporarily restrengthens in about 3 days, steering currents may drop off and/or even cause Bertha to turn left again. That may bring the TC quite close to the island of Bermuda.

John (typhoon_tip)

Update - Thursday 07/09 12:30AM ET
As of the 11pm advisory, Bertha remains on a general 310 degree motion, but it has been noted that during that for about 2 hours, a discerned due west motion transpired. That has, however, corrected back toward the same apparent 310 degree motion as of 12AM. These kinds of wobbles are quite common in TCs moving at slow rates of speed, and are most likely due to permutations in the convective behavior more than anything else. Her Dvorak numbers were as high as 100kts but according to the TPC, they have recently come back to the 90kts (~105mph), making Bertha a category 2 hurricane.

Her presentation on satellite is intriguing as of the midnight hour. Her southwest quadrant is composed almost entirely of eye-wall, with limited outer features:


And, as you can see, her eye is still very well defined.

The forecast philosophy for Bertha has changed a little. Some of the more reliable models, including the GFS and the ECMWF, are conflicting with the NOGAPS, UKMET and GFDL about the position of Bertha after 72 hours. The former want to stall Bertha out just east or southeast of Bermuda, while the latter want to use an earlier trough to accelerate her toward the graveyard. Considering that the ridge north of Bertha has proven more resilient overall this warm season, a compromise is in order and the official call is for a near stall between 72 and 120 hours, while she awaits - perhaps - a more significant trough incursion from off the east coast, later on nearing day 5. Bertha could be moving rather erratically during that interval of time, and given to its relative close proximity to Bermuda, interest should pay close attention to the evolution of this system.

John (typhoon_tip)

Update - Wednesday 07/09 12:30PM ET
The 11am advisory still has a 300-degree motion associated with Bertha. Her current intensity is set at 65kts, and some improvement in satellite presentation during the morning suggests at least modest re-intensification is taking place.

There has been some conjecture as to whether or not Bertha has found the means to resume more westerly track motion. I am not seeing a big enough deviation between her apparent axis of circulation to that of the clear NW track motion provided by the TPC - they seem to be aligning just fine. Moreover, there are no compelling synoptic reasons that assert Bertha should be resuming a west motion, for the time being. It is likely that convective idiosyncrasies and cloud patterns resulting have given some visual effects of west motion. However, the longer period observation still shows a general NW motion has persisted throughout the course of these "wobbles".

Steering field remains weak, but with a trough "denting" the Bermuda ridge as it presses off-shore the NE U.S. over the next day and half, if anything this offers at least a small argument for continue northwest or perhaps even eventually a north motion...albeit slowly. Speed of motion does not appear to have any means to really accelerate until perhaps very late in the 5-day forecast period, at which time a stronger trough pushing off the Mid Atlantic and northeast coasts may very well finally accelerate Bertha seaward.

Until that time, Bermuda can not be ruled out as being impacted and should continue to monitor the progress of Bertha. And, it may be that 4 or 5 days of monitoring will be required.

John (typhoon_tip)

Update - Tuesday 07/08 10:30AM ET
Bertha is undergoing a great deal of shear and is weakening.

The eye itself remains barely intact beneath sheared clouds, but even that will not last long. Today it will likely gradually weaken more and later it may "decouple" from the system and then weaken more rapidly. Shear and Dry Air are taking its toll on Bertha this morning cloud tops are warming and other indications of weakening are all there.

What happened yesterday, and again this morning shows just how poorly intensity forecasting is understood. The lack of Recon because of the distance offshore and general lack of other data also had a lot to do with it.

The future track may slow down and con the track with speed and potential drifting later may force Bermuda to watch it for a while, although the NHC forecast and models suggest it probably will pass well to the East of the island. It has a slight chance to have minor restrengthening after it gets through the first round of shear, but water temperatures in that area suggest it won't get close to the levels it had overnight. The official forecast just shows the system weakening.

The storm remains no threat to the United States. Bermuda will need to watch it for a bit longer.

Update - Monday 07/07 5PM ET
Bertha is now a Major Hurricane with sustained winds of 100 knots (115mph) and a central pressure of 948MB. Movement over the past six hours has been to the northwest at about 10 knots and a slower forward motion is likely as the storm has reached a weakness in the Atlantic Ridge. Bertha is probably close to (if not at) her peak intensity as upper level wind shear begins to influence her strength and a slow decline in wind speed is likely over the next few days. The folks in Bermuda still need to maintain a careful watch on this hurricane as the weekend approaches.



Elsewhere, the basin is quiet - for the moment - with another tropical wave likely to exit the west African coast on Tuesday.
ED

11:20 AM EDT 7-July-2008 Update
Bertha is now nearly a Category 2 hurricane, it will likely strengthen to be at or around a Category 2 hurricane today and part of tomorrow. After that it could enter a higher shear region and weaken, there are some signs it may fight that, however, and stay fairly strong.

The National Hurricane Center keeps it weakening, albiet slowly over the next several days. The current forecast track takes it East of Bermdua, but Bermuda itself is well within the cone. Interests in Bermuda should keep watch on this system.

The pressure as issued at 975mb, corrected from the first 11AM Advisory.

The GFS still hasn't "found" the system and a lot of the track models take that into account, once it gets it we see a better handle on the shear and track.

Original Update
Bertha has become the atlantic basin 2008's first hurricane, and is still racing along fairly quickly at 17mph toward the west-northwest. It formed on July 7th, the same day that 1996's Bertha formed into a hurricane.

Bertha, as forecast, has become a hurricane with wind speeds of 75 MPH and the forward movement slowing down to 17 MPH.



In the past twelve hours, Bertha has started to turn more toward the west-northwest. Currently, it appears that Bertha is not a threat to the US mainland nor the Caribbean, but this is not completely solid yet so its still worth watching. The most likely scenario, by far, remains that it stays on the track and curves north.The newest trend suggests that Bermuda may feel the effects of Bertha this weekend. This according to the current National Hurricane Center forecast. Conditions probably will keep Bertha from gaining too much strength (right now it's looking pretty healthy), and it does not appear Bertha will gain much more than a Category 1 or 2 hurricane, in fact it is more likely that Bertha will weaken in the longer term.



Outside of Bertha, nothing appears to be forming over the next few days.

Event Related Links
{{BermudaNews}}

{{StormLinks|Bertha|02|2|2008|1|Bertha}}




cieldumort
(Moderator)
Mon Jul 07 2008 11:41 AM
Re: Hurricane Bertha

Bertha is fast closing in on T numbers upwards of 5.5 this morning, particularly now that the agencies tasked with utilizing Dvorak are doing so based on far more accurate center fixes. NHC now gives ≥ 10% odds of Bertha becoming a major cane during any of Days 2 through 4, and this looks very hard to argue with, if not even conservative. While convection is still not very deep, ever warmer and warmer SSTs are in her future this week. So long as shear does not become a problem, the surrounding dry air should not have much luck impinging on her development. OTOH, should shear do some damage, especially given the dry air and SAL that abounds in the region, we could see a fast unwinding of this current phase.

As for track, NHC seems a bit unsure of their own forecast. To be sure, there is some doubt about whether or not the progged trof will be significant enough to pull Bertha into a full recurve, should the trof really show up, in the first place.


craigm
(Storm Tracker)
Mon Jul 07 2008 11:43 AM
Re: Hurricane Bertha

Wow what are the odds another Bertha forming in july exactly on 7/7.
Looks like the tropical suite and the GFS are breaking from the pack for now, but still showing recurve around 70w. Bertha's future is not written in stone yet as evidenced by this excerpt from the 5:00 AM discussion
'GIVEN THE WEAK
STEERING CURRENTS AND LACK OF A HIGH-AMPLITUDE TROUGH OVER THE
WESTERN ATLANTIC DURING THE NEXT SEVERAL DAYS...IT IS STILL NOT
GUARANTEED THAT BERTHA WILL RECURVE.'
Model experience however tells me to put my money on GFDL,ukmet and nogaps.


MikeCAdministrator
(Admin)
Mon Jul 07 2008 01:31 PM
Re: Hurricane Bertha

Bertha looks really healthy right now and has a good shot at becoming a Category 2 storm maybe even a little more, The shear that likely may tear it apart later right now is actually helping to evacuate some of the upper air right now helping the system to stay together.

I doubt that the trend will continue too much longer though.


scottsvb
(Weather Master)
Mon Jul 07 2008 02:29 PM
Re: Hurricane Bertha

Agreed with Mike. I'm impressed with such a system at this point in July..especially where its at in the Atlantic. The GFDL did the best job so far on this system along with the GFS. It's too early to tell if Bertha will come close to Bermuda or not but we do have time as she will slow down some in forward speed to the NW.

Unregistered User
(Unregistered)
Mon Jul 07 2008 02:58 PM
Re: Hurricane Bertha

Wow Im watching the news atm&they just said it got bumped to a category two now.. ehh Well Im in FL& closely watching this storm

MikeCAdministrator
(Admin)
Mon Jul 07 2008 03:33 PM
Re: Hurricane Bertha

Quote:

Wow Im watching the news atm&they just said it got bumped to a category two now.. ehh Well Im in FL& closely watching this storm




It's still a Category 1 (75-94mph) storm, but it very well could be a 2 later today.


chase 22
(Weather Hobbyist)
Mon Jul 07 2008 04:23 PM
Re: Hurricane Bertha

What is amazing is how fast Bertha is picking up strength given 24 hours ago, we were looking at a moderate tropical storm and now she's an almost cat 2 hurricane. It will be very interesting to see how much this trough (if any) will play a role with Bertha

allan
(Weather Master)
Mon Jul 07 2008 04:41 PM
Re: Hurricane Bertha Forms in Atlantic, Bermuda needs to Watch

It's been amazing but shear is 20-30 knots to the north which should keep Bertha at category 1 or even a minimal 2 range. Once Bertha moves north of the islands, shear will weaken and Bertha might surprise us. As of now, unless shear dramatically weakens to the northwest, without an anticyclone anymore, Bertha should remain under major hurricane intensity! The latest GFS has two weaker troughs and just stalls Bertha while it slowly drifts northwest. I'd like to see the next few runs of this and other models. Bermuda is most likely to get hit with this but it would not surprise me that it reaches the USA coastline if the troughs are this weak. The first trough was already forecasted to be weak and lift Bertha north but now the GFS is showing the second trough that was supposed to recurve Bertha as a weak front that stalls after crossing the northeast. Interesting stuff. When I say latest GFS, it's the 12z run that is still running.
http://www.nco.ncep.noaa.gov/pmb/nwprod/analysis/carib/gfs/12/model_l.shtml

I've been and still am looking for a recurvature west of Bermuda but east of the Carolinas. It's still a wait and see situation.


typhoon_tip
(Meteorologist)
Mon Jul 07 2008 05:05 PM
Re: Hurricane Bertha

Quote:

What is amazing is how fast Bertha is picking up strength given 24 hours ago, we were looking at a moderate tropical storm and now she's an almost cat 2 hurricane. It will be very interesting to see how much this trough (if any) will play a role with Bertha




My own records show that TCs tend to go above official guidance expectation more than 50% of the time. If NHC pegs a system at 70kts in 3 days for example...the system tends to be a tad stronger by that 3rd day. Virtually every storm in the mega 2005 historic season wound up being more intense than forecast intervals.

But in the case with Bertha, we have to remember that she passed over an interval of 25C SST, which took about 24 hours to do so. This probably stunted her growth. About this time yesterday morning, she began encroaching on 26C-30C type SSTs, and since the deep layer shear profiles have been favorable for strengthening all along, a speedy upswing was plausible.


scottsvb
(Weather Master)
Mon Jul 07 2008 05:41 PM
Re: Hurricane Bertha Forms in Atlantic, Bermuda needs to Watch

Allan thats a easy bet on between the Carolinas and Bermuda...right now.. thats the path or it may slide east of Bermuda .. but thats also a easy guess. Yeah the troughs are weak and faster to move in and out this time of year but I do feel Bermuda will be the closest landmass. I dont see this getting any closer than 68W if it misses the first trough.
At least this system takes the boring part of early July out of the way in the Atlantic...maybe we can get something else to watch later this weekend approaching the carribean!


allan
(Weather Master)
Mon Jul 07 2008 05:56 PM
Re: Hurricane Bertha Forms in Atlantic, Bermuda needs to Watch

Exactly, to much troughiness for Bertha to actually make it to the east coast. Bermudas gonna have to hunker down as they say, Berthas intensification is surprising to me, especially when shear is a bit high to the north. Shear goes all the way to 50 knots if it were to head straight north, yet shear lowers to 20 knots if it heads the forecasted direction. It was a tough forecast, wunderground bloggers were getting mixed up, now it seems like the path is finally starting to clear out. If the trough doesn't recurve it, next one should recurve it. Things should get interesting later in the month.

Rich B
(British Meteorologist)
Mon Jul 07 2008 06:45 PM
Re: Hurricane Bertha Forms in Atlantic, Bermuda needs to Watch

The gift of modern satellite imagery! The latest visible loops show that Bertha continue to move west-northwest, and continue to become berrer organised. The eye has become clearer, and the outflow more evident immediatley atop the eyewall. Expect to see her at at least 100mph on the next advisory package. Bermuda is the only area in the next few days that really needs to pay close attention to Bertha, dependent on just how much affect the troughs have on direction, and the shear on strength!

ftlaudbob
(Storm Chaser)
Mon Jul 07 2008 07:24 PM
Re: Hurricane Bertha Forms in Atlantic, Bermuda needs to Watch

Quote:

The gift of modern satellite imagery! The latest visible loops show that Bertha continue to move west-northwest, and continue to become berrer organised. The eye has become clearer, and the outflow more evident immediatley atop the eyewall. Expect to see her at at least 100mph on the next advisory package. Bermuda is the only area in the next few days that really needs to pay close attention to Bertha, dependent on just how much affect the troughs have on direction, and the shear on strength!




Yea she sure is looking very good as of now.I would not be surprised if she were a cat 3 on the 5pm update.A CV hurricane in the first week of July maybe a bad sign for the rest of the season.Good luck to all that are on Bermuda.


Rich B
(British Meteorologist)
Mon Jul 07 2008 07:36 PM
Re: Hurricane Bertha Forms in Atlantic, Bermuda needs to Watch

NRL now have her at 970mb and 90knots - will be interesting to see if NHC put her at 100 or 105 mph. Either way, looks like Bertha is on her way to Major Cane status.

typhoon_tip
(Meteorologist)
Mon Jul 07 2008 07:59 PM
Re: Hurricane Bertha Forms in Atlantic, Bermuda needs to Watch

Quote:

NRL now have her at 970mb and 90knots - will be interesting to see if NHC put her at 100 or 105 mph. Either way, looks like Bertha is on her way to Major Cane status.




I was watching this this afternoon and it looks intense to me as well. The last 2 hours in particular have wrapped her CDO into some impressive symmetry.

She also appears to me to be already moving NW... The last 5 hours of looping is tough to argue against. I have a thread going over in the forecast lounge that discusses some things that could (and would need to) happen in order to keep this moving west. Clearly, those things are not taking place.

The recent ECM runs have been signaling a quasi -PNA pattern evolution for the U.S., and the thinking was that such a resulting Ohio Valley/Tennessee Valley ridge axis would probably merge with the persistent west/central Atlantic ridge. That would have pinned Bertha underneath, regardless of what the models had 3 days ago. However, Bertha moved too quickly across the Basin. I don't argue that there is a weakness in the geopotential medium and that there is some steering level response; just look at Bertha's motion.. However, her moving across the Atlantic Basin at near ludicrous speeds appears pretty clearly now to outrun these larger scale changes.


cieldumort
(Moderator)
Mon Jul 07 2008 08:30 PM
Re: Hurricane Bertha Forms in Atlantic, Bermuda needs to Watch

Indeed , Bertha is doing very well for herself. ADT is now coming in at 115 knots, raw, as well as 3 hour averaged.

Much has been written here about Bertha's so-called surprisingly rapid intensification. However, this should be considered within the context of of NHC not having had the advantage of recon in and out of there. As early as late yesterday afternoon there were clear indications that Bertha may had already become a hurricane, but owing to the lack of quality center fixes, not to mention the lack of any actual recon flight data at all, Dvorak intensity estimates were not well-pegged to her actual center, and this often tends to give a negative bias to the final T, which, if left uncorrected, then also gets fed into the models, many of which have been way off on her actual intensity, and a bit off on location.

The fact that the CIMSS ADT product is now hitting regular, averaged T numbers of 6.0 or better owes a great deal to the clear eye offering an accurate place to start. Bertha may very well already be a major hurricane, and may have been one for a few hours. Bertha may have been a hurricane for almost 24 hours. Reanalysis will be very key to the record books, for this one.


Hugh
(Senior Storm Chaser)
Mon Jul 07 2008 10:48 PM
Re: Hurricane Bertha Forms in Atlantic, Bermuda needs to Watch

Bertha's rapid intensification in defiance of the official forecast didn't surprise me, because I saw it coming via the satellite presentation. The impact of the shear on the intensity forecast appears to have been significantly overstated in the models and the official forecast. Motion, however, seems to be on track based upon the forecast, which just goes to show that the NHC has a good handle on where hurricanes are going to go in the short term, but still is a long way from being able to forecast intensity. From here on out, I don't expect Bertha has peaked quite yet, and with T-numbers continuing to climb, it would not surprise me to see Bertha with 140+mph winds by morning, before leveling off due to EWRCs.

M.A.
(Weather Guru)
Mon Jul 07 2008 11:54 PM
Re: Hurricane Bertha Forms in Atlantic, Bermuda needs to Watch

I am very impressed with the intensification of Bertha over the last 24hrs ( Bingo Bango). I have been a naysayer on this storm since day one. I've been wrong before and will be wrong again, maybe even in this post.lol I do believe that Bertha has peaked in intensity. The shear on the northern portion is starting to have an effect on the overall cdo. I do believe that the last few frames on the sat loop show a slot of dry air being drawn in from the northeast, and the over all cdo is warming significantly inturn.

LoisCane
(Veteran Storm Chaser)
Tue Jul 08 2008 12:01 AM
Re: Hurricane Bertha Forms in Atlantic, Bermuda needs to Watch

Her eye is contracting down to a pin point, she's may hit Cat 4 before dawn. Apologies on this one, Ciel was right on the Category 3 today. Shows again and again how a hurricane can hit Major Cane status without the best of conditions in an only optimal environment.. once they get the engine going they can really spin up fast. Also, her center has been small the whole time and it is easier for a small storm to ramp up like this than a bigger one.

Amazing. Would say she can easily barrel through a high but you never know until you know so keep watching.

Inner eye going to go through Eye Wall Replacement Cycles sooner rather than later. And, she is barely moving it seems.

http://www.ssd.noaa.gov/goes/flt/t1/jsl-l.jpg


Hugh
(Senior Storm Chaser)
Tue Jul 08 2008 12:12 AM
Re: Hurricane Bertha Forms in Atlantic, Bermuda needs to Watch

Bertha's forward motion hasn't decreased from what I can tell, if anything, it's moving faster, and maybe more north than west.
Regarding the pinhole eye, I've been thinking all day that Bertha was a borderline Cat 4 in the making, and now I think it's finally close to peaking in the early stages of an eyewall cycle.


Ed DunhamAdministrator
(Former Meteorologist & CFHC Forum Moderator (Ed Passed Away on May 14, 2017))
Tue Jul 08 2008 12:56 AM
Re: Major Hurricane Bertha Now Moving Northwest

Please be a little more cautious on your intensity forecasts - especially when rationale is not provided. Remember that 'gut feeling' forecasts belong in the Forecast Lounge.

Over the last 4 hours Bertha has continued to wobble along to the northwest (310 degrees) at 10 knots forward speed. IR imagery shows that the cloud tops have warmed slightly, so additional intensification of another 15 knots to reach Cat IV is not very likely. Modest upper level wind shear continues to impinge on the northwest quadrant of the hurricane - another factor against additional intensification in the short term.
ED


Hugh
(Senior Storm Chaser)
Tue Jul 08 2008 01:22 AM
Re: Major Hurricane Bertha Now Moving Northwest

NRL now shows winds up to 105kts, with pressure down to 952mb. That's actually a higher pressure than the 948 at the 5pm advisory, but at that point NRL was showing 970mb with 90kt winds.
I know what you're saying about warming cloud tops, Ed, but I'm seeing some oscillation (for lack of a better term) in the tops, periodically warming but then cooling again. Bertha seems to be handling, and even beating off, the shear rather fiercely still.


Robert
(Weather Analyst)
Tue Jul 08 2008 01:24 AM
Re: Major Hurricane Bertha Now Moving Northwest

Whats with that upper level low south of bermuda, sems once bertha really deppend she started heading right for the flow shooting around it.

cieldumort
(Moderator)
Tue Jul 08 2008 02:02 AM
Re: Major Hurricane Bertha Now Moving Northwest

Something which I should have made mention of a lot earlier. The upper level troffiness largely responsible for the increasing shear on Bertha from the northwest, has also been participating in enhancing the now very healthy outflow channel zoom-zooming off to her NE. So, there is some serious give and take going on over Bertha right now. On the one hand, you have the cyclone becoming (a little) asymmetric, as the shear starts to gnaw at her more. On the other, you still have this dynamite outflow. In fact, recently TWC's Dr. Lyons made mention that in his opinion, the outflow channel has been the largest single factor in the cyclone's intensification to a major hurricane, today.

It appears probable that Bertha has peaked out today at around 105 knots, give or take. This just about pushed the outer limits of Kerry Emanuel's Maximum Potential Intensity index (MPI), being that SSTs did not improve all that much over the course of just the past 18-24 hours.


Hugh
(Senior Storm Chaser)
Tue Jul 08 2008 02:12 AM
Re: Major Hurricane Bertha Now Moving Northwest

Quote:

It appears probable that Bertha has peaked out today at around 105 knots, give or take. This just about pushed the outer limits of Kerry Emanuel's Maximum Potential Intensity index (MPI), being that SSTs did not improve all that much over the course of just the past 18-24 hours.




Excellent point about SSTs, which makes the intensification all the more dramatic. I do believe you're correct in that Bertha has likely peaked at 105kts, but I don't believe I'd call the current presentation asymmetric exactly. The CORE of the hurricane, where the strongest convection is, is certainly tilted on its axis right now, but I've seen that before with hurricanes moving NW. What I'm most interested in, is the fact that Bertha is completely off the forecast track now.


LoisCane
(Veteran Storm Chaser)
Tue Jul 08 2008 02:36 AM
Re: Major Hurricane Bertha Now Moving Northwest

Looking worse on Dvorak by the minute...hour.

Which ever factor is causing the problem it is clear to see there is a lot going on.

http://www.ssd.noaa.gov/goes/flt/t1/bd-l.jpg

I wouldn't this is due to an ERC.


danielwAdministrator
(Moderator)
Tue Jul 08 2008 02:38 AM
Re: Major Hurricane Bertha Now Moving Northwest

AT 0300Z THE CENTER OF HURRICANE BERTHA WAS LOCATED NEAR LATITUDE
20.8 NORTH...LONGITUDE 52.8 WEST WITH MAXIMUM SUSTAINED WINDS NEAR
105 KTS...120 MPH...195 KM/HR.

HURRICANE BERTHA DISCUSSION NUMBER 20
NWS TPC/NATIONAL HURRICANE CENTER MIAMI FL AL022008
1100 PM EDT MON JUL 07 2008

DURING THE AFTERNOON HOURS BETWEEN 1900 AND 2300 UTC...BOTH NHC AND
CIMSS OBJECTIVE T-NUMBERS WERE OSCILLATING AROUND 6.0 ON THE DVORAK
SCALE. NORMALLY THESE NUMBERS CORRESPOND TO AN INTENSITY OF 115
KNOTS. DURING THAT TIME THE EYE BECAME VERY DISTINCT AND WAS
SURROUNDED BY VERY COLD TOPS. BERTHA COULD HAVE REACHED A PEAK
INTENSITY A LITTLE BIT HIGHER THAN PREVIOUSLY ESTIMATED DURING THAT
PERIOD. SINCE THEN...OBJECTIVE T-NUMBERS HAVE COME DOWN A LITTLE
BIT AND NEW ESTIMATES SUPPORT AN INTENSITY OF 105 KNOTS. MINIMUM
CENTRAL PRESSURE HAS ALSO BEEN ADJUSTED.
(spacing to permit easier reading and bold to highlight the ERC Lois was speaking of.~danielw)
THE INTENSITY IS EXPECTED
TO BE CONTROLLED BY EYEWALL REPLACEMENT CYCLES DURING THE NEXT 12
TO 24 HOURS WHEN BERTHA COULD FLUCTUATE IN INTENSITY.

THEREAFTER...
THE OFFICIAL FORECAST CALLS FOR SLIGHT WEAKENING DUE TO INCREASING
SHEAR BUT NOT AS MUCH WEAKENING AS PREDICTED BY THE SHIPS MODEL.
NEVERTHELESS...THE INTENSITY FORECAST CONTINUES TO BE HIGHLY
UNCERTAIN...

Forecaster Avilla also added this to the 11PM Discussion. (Not that we needed a reminder~danielw)

BERTHA IS CERTAINLY NOT THE ONLY MAJOR HURRICANE THAT HAS FORMED IN
THE MONTH OF JULY. THE LAST OCCURRENCES WERE HURRICANES DENNIS AND
EMILY IN 2005.


LoisCane
(Veteran Storm Chaser)
Tue Jul 08 2008 12:02 PM
Re: Major Hurricane Bertha Now Moving Northwest

With almost any other storm i would agree however she is an extremely small, storm with hurricane force winds only 30 miles out from the eye and due to her size alone she is a small, strong pebble in a great big sea of weather and think her future intensity in the short term will be influenced by conditions around that small, seemingly intense core of category 3 winds.

I don't think her bad presentation on dvorak is due to eye wall replacement though it may be hard to determine without recon what is really going on from sats as they don't tell the whole story perfectly.

Her pressure has gone up steadily however they kept the winds at 120.

There is a lot going on there inside and around this storm. Would be fascinating to get a Gulfstream Jet in there and be able to after the fact figure out what happened here and use that data towards better intensity forecasts down the line.

http://cimss.ssec.wisc.edu/tropic/real-time/tpw2/natl/images/mosaic20080708T100000.gif

http://www.ssd.noaa.gov/goes/flt/t1/bd-l.jpg

Reminds me of a very small, intense Hurricane Bret that hit Texas

http://www.srh.noaa.gov/crp/docs/research/hurrhistory/bret/default.html

3rd paragraph down discusses Bret's size:

"An interesting meteorological phenomenon associated with Hurricane Bret, was the unusually small diameter of hurricane force winds that extended out from the center of this powerful storm. Even as Bret rapidly intensified to a major hurricane, the hurricane force winds (winds sustained of 75 mph or greater) extended out only 30 to 40 miles in all directions from the center."


M.A.
(Weather Guru)
Wed Jul 09 2008 01:09 AM
Re: Major Hurricane Bertha Now Moving Northwest

Bertha has had a very rough time today, it seems as if the shear has disrupted the the COC and even caused a bit of decoupling. The last frame of the sat loop is disturbing. The flare up of convection is right over the COC. I am wondering if the shear might be relaxing. I have not looked at the shear forecast today, so I can not speak informatively about it. It does appear that Bertha is far from done and might be making a bit of a come back as I type this.

Hugh
(Senior Storm Chaser)
Wed Jul 09 2008 01:14 AM
Re: Major Hurricane Bertha Now Moving Northwest

Two things I'm noticing tonight.
1. Bertha's making a bit of a comeback against the shear.
2. Bertha's moving more westerly than the official forecast.

I might be imaginng the movement, but the cloud tops have definately cooled once again, and convection has intensified.


Ed DunhamAdministrator
(Former Meteorologist & CFHC Forum Moderator (Ed Passed Away on May 14, 2017))
Wed Jul 09 2008 02:07 AM
Re: Major Hurricane Bertha Now Moving Northwest

Actually I think that you have made two good observations. The convective flareup appears to be to the south and southwest of the center, although pinpointing the center on IR imagery is always difficult. At 09/00Z I think that the center was around 23.0N 55.4W which would indicate more of a west northwest movement over the past three hours. Since the steering currents are quite weak, it could be just a temporary thing - or its also possible that the ridge to the north may have strengthen somewhat and the trough might have weakened somewhat. It will take a few more hours of observation. Also possible that the flareup itself nudged a slightly more westerly component to the track direction, but all the more reason why Bermuda needs to monitor Bertha's slow progress.
Cheers,
ED


Hugh
(Senior Storm Chaser)
Wed Jul 09 2008 02:14 AM
Re: Major Hurricane Bertha Now Moving Northwest

The official forecast indicated that Bertha might start to wander around, but it mentioned it at day 4-5, not today... which is why the apparently shift in track surprised me a bit. Obviously you're right, it's too early to say it's a definate change in motion, but it's a bit disturbing nonetheless. If the ridge does indeed build back, that increases the uncertainty with Bertha, in my book.

typhoon_tip
(Meteorologist)
Wed Jul 09 2008 03:24 AM
Re: Major Hurricane Bertha Now Moving Northwest

Quote:

Actually I think that you have made two good observations. The convective flareup appears to be to the south and southwest of the center, although pinpointing the center on IR imagery is always difficult. At 09/00Z I think that the center was around 23.0N 55.4W which would indicate more of a west northwest movement over the past three hours. Since the steering currents are quite weak, it could be just a temporary thing - or its also possible that the ridge to the north may have strengthen somewhat and the trough might have weakened somewhat. It will take a few more hours of observation. Also possible that the flareup itself nudged a slightly more westerly component to the track direction, but all the more reason why Bermuda needs to monitor Bertha's slow progress.
Cheers,
ED




Is it not true that track changes need 6 hours to confirm at the TPC? Am noticing that the 11pm discussion does not pick up on what seems to be a westward straddling of the 23rd parallel. I have also noticed a slowing of the forward motion. It does 'seem' upon satellite (IR, which as you said is difficult to use for these scenarios) that Bertha has resumed a more west motion. However, that could be 'optics' in that she burst convection somewhat, and the curl around the circulation makes the appearance of that west motion - though perhaps not really happening? Tough call.

John


LoisCane
(Veteran Storm Chaser)
Wed Jul 09 2008 03:53 AM
Re: Major Hurricane Bertha Now Moving Northwest

It's more than a few frames. The movement is steady and what seems to be the center has moved past the forecast points.

I think she might be moving faster now but it's hard to tell especially since there seems to be discrepancy between forecasted movement and what the eye sees. Wish that recon had gone in or was going in... would provide more answers. In the past often recon would find subtle differences between what we thought we saw on sats and what was actually happening in the storm.

http://www.ssd.noaa.gov/goes/flt/t1/loop-ir2.html

Wanted to add that the models all show a much stronger storm almost from the get go and I keep thinking on a n older comment Ed made re: GFS not handling the storm well the other day. The models all start with a storm much stronger than what we see and I would think that would make them somewhat suspect. I would like to see the models in the morning with current data to see if they truly reflect the storm as she is tonight and not how she was earlier in the day.




LDH892
(Meteorologist)
Wed Jul 09 2008 04:16 AM
Re: Major Hurricane Bertha Now Moving Northwest

You've all made some great points about Bertha's motion and intensity forecasting issues. Lois brings to light one problem that I've been thinking of as well, how most of these models aren't handling Bertha's intensity fluctuations at initiation very well. Another thing that has bothered me, which maybe someone else can explain further, is that over the past 2-3 days the official guidance has closely followed the CLIPER model. CLIPER is one of the lowest skilled models and for the official forecast and most of the model consensus to become aligned with the CLIPER seemed fishy to me, may just be this particular storm and its environment, or it may mean the models just haven't gotten a good grasp on Bertha (strength, size, motion, etc.). We'll see if the slight westward shift in the model consensus occurs in the 12Z run in the morning, perhaps the CLIPER will begin to be more of an outlier (like it should be), or perhaps since the steering currents will become so weak that model flip-flopping will become more of a normal occurrence (and the CLIPER may be the best choice - a.k.a climatology and persistence...). Enjoy reading everyones comments, thanks for any specific replies.

typhoon_tip
(Meteorologist)
Wed Jul 09 2008 04:28 AM
Re: Major Hurricane Bertha Now Moving Northwest

Quote:

You've all made some great points about Bertha's motion and intensity forecasting issues. Lois brings to light one problem that I've been thinking of as well, how most of these models aren't handling Bertha's intensity fluctuations at initiation very well. Another thing that has bothered me, which maybe someone else can explain further, is that over the past 2-3 days the official guidance has closely followed the CLIPER model. CLIPER is one of the lowest skilled models and for the official forecast and most of the model consensus to become aligned with the CLIPER seemed fishy to me, may just be this particular storm and its environment, or it may mean the models just haven't gotten a good grasp on Bertha (strength, size, motion, etc.). We'll see if the slight westward shift in the model consensus occurs in the 12Z run in the morning, perhaps the CLIPER will begin to be more of an outlier (like it should be), or perhaps since the steering currents will become so weak that model flip-flopping will become more of a normal occurrence (and the CLIPER may be the best choice - a.k.a climatology and persistence...). Enjoy reading everyones comments, thanks for any specific replies.




I would like to comment on the Clipper model but unfortunately, can't. I do not normally use that tool; so I don't really have a handle on its known biases, thus, how to balance its solutions against the back-drop synoptics/other model solutions - which may and probably do have their own biases.

I will say that the TPC has intimated a couple of times that "meandering" was a concern in track guidance, for having weakening steering fields/intensity fluctuations. This seems reasonable and we are probably needing more time along these late evening behaviors, to determine how important they are.


Robert
(Weather Analyst)
Wed Jul 09 2008 04:47 AM
Bertha Weakening.

I thought i would share this from an old talk back when hurricane frances slowed down in shifty curents back in 2004 and started winding down. LIke berthat is doing now and forcast to do. Its from Hank Frank.


situation is becoming very complex. pressure has been essentially stable all day, but the expanding windfield and stall of the storm is throwing everything into ambiguity. if the storm spins down, the deep layer steering should kick in and take the system further west.. of course the models that forecast the system to up towards ga/sc a couple days ago were exhibiting a stall at times. Frances associated shortwave ridge has stuck it's nose down into the nw caribbean and is contributing to it's own sheared situation.
i'm just not sure how the storm will respond to this.. as the storm spins down in a regime of conflicting steering.. there are lots of things that can happen.
HF 0114z04september


Ed DunhamAdministrator
(Former Meteorologist & CFHC Forum Moderator (Ed Passed Away on May 14, 2017))
Wed Jul 09 2008 04:58 AM
Re: Major Hurricane Bertha Now Moving Northwest

Normally NHC will use a minimum of 6 hours for track forecast guidance (often more) and they do not like to make too significant a track change from one forecast to the next. Since persistence is the most reliable forecast tool in the tropics, this approach can usually work to your advantage - but not always. Case in point was Hurricane Charley heading for Tampa when it was rather obvious that a remarkable late season summer front/trof was going to turn Charley to the northeast.

The CLIPER has actually shown the best model performance on this storm - unusual, but it has. Except for poor intensity initialization, the GFS has also done a good job with the track forecast. The 18Z GFS run actually picked up on the current motion. The 00Z run is now coming in - - it places the storm near 25N 61.5W in 48 hours, then drifts it north for the next four days after that - with the system still below 30N six days from now. Bertha will probably still be around at this time next Wednesday.

Best guesstimate on position at 04Z was 23.0N 56.4W. Thats a motion due west at 12 knots over the past 4 hours and suggests that the ridge to the north has been reinforced.
Cheers,
ED


WhitherWeather
(Verified CFHC User)
Wed Jul 09 2008 05:59 AM
Re: Major Hurricane Bertha Now Moving Northwest

Quote:

Best guesstimate on position at 04Z was 23.0N 56.4W. Thats a motion due west at 12 knots over the past 4 hours and suggests that the ridge to the north has been reinforced.




With all due respect to the six hour rule of thumb for persistence, still, taking the first and last images of the most recent Dvorak loop and adding some orange reference lines for leading and bottom edges of the storm seems to give a visual nod to that "due west" assessment:



WhitherWeather


cieldumort
(Moderator)
Wed Jul 09 2008 09:11 AM
Re: Major Hurricane Bertha Now Moving Northwest

IR can be so deceptive. It now looks more like there were just some spacial artifacts created when Bertha blew up some additional convection and blew off some tops, earlier.

With the aid of an AMSRE composite from 0521Z, and pairing that with what looks to be some deep convection making a partial ring, I'm betting that a nearly northwest motion is right on target. 5AM discussion out of NHC shows that they are certainly going with this.

As for initial intensity as well as thermal structure, right now it appears that the HWRF is about the only model that is close to spot-on, and it also indicates an entirely believable re-intensification.. to at least a solid Cat 2 (and given this cyclone's history, Cat 3/4 looks to be entirely back in the realm of the very possible). The ULL to her west continues moving even farther away from her, and on her current heading, shear is relaxing, and outflow improving.

If Bertha does indeed spend at least the next five to seven days in the western Atlantic fluctuating in intensity between Cat 1 and major hurricane, she'll have added one heck of a sizable number to this season's ACE. This would simply be an amazing feat for an early season tropical cyclone, and something we haven't seen since 2005.



Unregistered User
(Unregistered)
Wed Jul 09 2008 03:40 PM
Re: Major Hurricane Bertha Now Moving WNW

If Bertha continues on it's current track for the day, they may adjust the track back to the left a bit.
Certainly would mean more problems for Bermuda.

http://www.ssd.noaa.gov/goes/east/catl/loop-vis.html

Looks like it is skirting along 24N


ftlaudbob
(Storm Chaser)
Wed Jul 09 2008 04:08 PM
Re: Major Hurricane Bertha Now Moving WNW

Looks like she is trying to form an eye again also.No question she is moving more west now.This was also just reported on the local news here.

typhoon_tip
(Meteorologist)
Wed Jul 09 2008 04:21 PM
Re: Hurricane Bertha Weakening Now Moving Northwest

The 11am advisory still has a 300degree motion associated with Bertha.

It appears irregular convective prominences are causing "wobbling" of the track. These wobbles can often take as much as 3 or 4 hours to unfold. It is perhaps too easy in those intervals of time to believe something unexpected is taking place. But, I am not seeing a big enough deviation between her apparent axis of circulation to that of the clear NW track motion provided by the TPC - they seem to be aligning just fine. Moreover, there isn't really much compelling synoptic reason that asserts Bertha should be resuming a west motion, for the time being. Steering field remains weak, but with a trough "denting" the Bermuda ridge as it presses off-shore the NE U.S. over the next day and half, if anything this offers at least a small argument for continue northwest or perhaps even eventually a north motion...albeit slowly. Speed of motion does not appear to have any means to really accelerate until perhaps very late in the 5-day forecast period.

What I am seeing in recent guidance is a clear emerged consensus that the next trough (4+days) will be a bit more substantial. The Euro model, for example, uses that trough to pick up Bertha and deliver her to the graveyard. Other models including the UKMET (also, 00z run), run Bertha up the eastern flanks of the baroclinic wall associated with the same trough. The Canadian model is the slowest with this overall evolution but still argues for the same sort of thing...stronger trough nearing D5 sets up a baroclinic axis off-shore and this veers the steering field more discernibly toward the graveyard and an alas re-curve scenario finally takes place there after.

It is possible that after this first trough (D1-D3) leaves the NW Atlantic, the ridge may respond a bit more robustly than currently modeled. If that were the case, than said deeper trough D4-6 may find an axis more west of currently depicted. That offers some envelope of discussion for gaining more longitude - perhaps - than currently suggested. There has been a seasonal bias in the models to try and dampen the west-central Atlantic ridge too much. Just something to keep and eye out for, as this would offer a greater degree of threat to Bermuda.

By and large, the greater synoptic challenge to preventing Bertha from re-curving has been answered for in my mind. Over the next week and beyond, it seems troughs passing from the GL-NE U.S. at higher/middle latitudes will pretty much seal a fate that will ultimately force Bertha seaward. Simply a matter of when. It is probably...actually...that what we are seeing is a step-wise escape to higher latitudes. First a weakness in the ridge instantiated a NW motion over the last day.5; that weakness fills and Bertha slows down and wobbles; then another weakness associated with a trough passing NW of Bermuda over the next two days may focus more NW motion; she slows again as said trough leaves the area; then we await a deeper trough expression in the extended to put the final hammer head down of that coffin nail. This seems the most likely pattern of behavior for Bertha's future to me.


Rich B
(British Meteorologist)
Wed Jul 09 2008 04:39 PM
Re: Hurricane Bertha Weakening Now Moving Northwest

Visible imagery shows Bertha becoming somewhat better organised, and available imagery from NRL also shows the eye becoming much better defined. Appears that the reorganising episode is also having an effect on motion, with some wobbles of the eye during the past 3 hours. Interesting that the models have shifted back to the west a little on the forecast track too... certainly one for Bermuda to keep an eye on!

danielwAdministrator
(Moderator)
Wed Jul 09 2008 04:51 PM
Bertha Influences??

Excerpt from yesterday's:

TROPICAL DISCUSSION - INTERNATIONAL DESKS
NWS HYDROMETEOROLOGICAL PREDICTION CENTER CAMP SPRINGS MD
201 PM EDT TUE JUL 08 2008

AT 500 HPA...AN ANTICYCLONE NORTH OF THE ISLANDS... CENTERED NEAR
33N 66W AT 24 HRS ENVELOPS THE AREA NORTH OF THE GREATER ANTILLES.
THROUGH 24-36 HRS THE RIDGE BECOMES NARROW AND ELONGATED EAST TO
WEST AS SHORT WAVE PERTURBATIONS EJECTING ACROSS THE EASTERN USA
THEN LIFTING OVER THIS RIDGE WILL ERODE THIS AXIS FROM THE NORTH.

BY 60-72 HRS THE ANTICYCLONE WILL BE CENTERED OVER THE NORTHERN
GULF OF MEXICO WITH A RIDGE AXIS EAST SOUTHEAST ACROSS THE
SOUTHERN BAHAMAS. A SECOND CELL OF THE SUBTROPICAL RIDGE LIES
FARTHER EAST... WITH A RIDGE EXTENDING WEST FROM AFRICA ALONG 20N
EAST OF 50W. THIS RIDGE PERSIST OVER THE TROPICAL ATLANTIC.

HURRICANE BERTHA LIES BETWEEN THESE RIDGES.

edit~ be extremly careful whern using the NHC storm headings. They are averaged over a 6 to 12 hour span and can be very misleading.
Remember Charley of 2004. Headings were just west of due North,toward the NNW and Charley was making a perfect right turn into Punta Gorda,FL. ~danielw


typhoon_tip
(Meteorologist)
Wed Jul 09 2008 04:51 PM
Definite strengthening signaled by satellite...


Recent satellite images offering dvorak numbers much stronger than the 11am advisory of 65kts, already... It may simply be that a more rapid period of intensification is taking place but the wind field has simply not yet responded. Recent looping IR, WV, and Visual imagery all suggest robust intensification under way.

Additionally, the upper air wind overlays show a bit of outflow jet developing on the NW quadrant, toward Bertha's direction of motion. As well...over all, the subtle semblances of light shear appear to have been replaced by more symmetric outflow in general. This combined with amply warm water, there really isn't any compelling reason to argue against intensification overall; but more importantly, the repeatedly learned lesson is that when hurricanes are given a lease on life like that they tend to exercise that right at least excuse imaginable...and go on ahead to "surprising" everyone for how they did this and that in "such a short period of time".

We'll see...

John


danielwAdministrator
(Moderator)
Wed Jul 09 2008 05:15 PM
Discussion Heads Up

The Position History For Hurricane Bertha (2008) can be found on this page here:
http://flhurricane.com/cyclone/stormhistory.php?storm=2&year=2008
It gives compass headings, rather than degree headings.

Bottom half of the Latest Discussion on Bertha. Models are having a rough time beyond 72 hours.

HURRICANE BERTHA DISCUSSION NUMBER 26
NWS TPC/NATIONAL HURRICANE CENTER MIAMI FL AL022008
1100 AM EDT WED JUL 09 2008 (edited~danielw)

...THE INITIAL MOTION IS ESSENTIALLY UNCHANGED FROM THE PREVIOUS
PACKAGE...300/10.
BERTHA SHOULD CONTINUE A SLOW TURN NORTHWARD
DURING THE NEXT 2-3 DAYS AS A MID-TROPOSPHERIC ANTICYCLONE
CURRENTLY NEAR BERMUDA IS FORECAST TO WEAKEN AND A 500 MB
SHORTWAVE TROUGH MOVES OFF OF THE U.S. EAST COAST.

BEYOND 72
HOURS...THE TRACK BECOMES A LITTLE LESS CERTAIN AS THE SHORTWAVE IS
NOT CURRENTLY FORECAST TO PICK UP THE CYCLONE.
RATHER...IT LEAVES
BERTHA BEHIND IN WEAK STEERING CURRENTS POSSIBLY RESULTING IN SLOW
AND ERRATIC MOTION AT THE END OF THE FORECAST.
TRACK MODELS HAVE
NOT DEMONSTRATED GOOD RUN TO RUN CONSISTENCY.
AS A RESULT...THE
NEW OFFICIAL TRACK FORECAST IS ESSENTIALLY UNCHANGED AND LIES WEST
OF THE DYNAMICAL MODEL CONSENSUS.

IT IS STILL TOO EARLY TO KNOW WHETHER BERTHA WILL HAVE AN IMPACT ON
BERMUDA. INTERESTS ON THAT ISLAND SHOULD CONTINUE TO MONITOR THE
PROGRESS OF THIS HURRICANE OVER THE NEXT COUPLE OF DAYS.

http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/text/refresh/MIATCDAT2+shtml/091440.shtml


cieldumort
(Moderator)
Wed Jul 09 2008 07:26 PM
Re: Hurricane Bertha regaining some strength. Still Moving Northwest

Outflow continues improving this afternoon, after some improvement during the late overnight and into the morning hours, as well. Deep convection now encircles a well-defined, fairly smooth and symmetric eye. Perhaps a little bit of interruption to the outflow channel that has been such a boon to her exhaust the past couple of days, but nothing perilous to her health just yet.

Now that CIMSS has got her position right again, and just in time for this most recent upswing in intensity, ADT is playing a little catch-up, with the CI still only reading 4.4 (garbage in, garbage out), but with an easily far more accurate adjusted T of 5.4, for around 100 knots.

With SAB already running 5.0 (around 90 knots) a little over an hour and a half ago, should the current trends persist for just a little while longer, there may easily be a 5PM advisory showing Bertha back up as a major.

Track continues just a hair to the *right* of OFCI. Wobbles along her path, and also the occasional clutter produced by some convective flare-ups, may have been making this appear less so from time to time. But once 3, 6 and 12 hour time-frames go by, the nearly nw trend stays very much intact.


Rich B
(British Meteorologist)
Wed Jul 09 2008 07:27 PM
Re: Hurricane Bertha regaining some strength. Still Moving Northwest

Expect Bertha to be a lot stronger at the 2100z advisory cycle - TNumbers at 1745z this evening were T5.0/5.0 from SSD - corresponding to near 105mph. The satellite presentation has continued to improve since then so it could well be higher. Certainly looks possible that Bertha may be undergoing rapid intensification.

JoshuaK
(Weather Guru)
Wed Jul 09 2008 08:16 PM
Re: Hurricane Bertha regaining some strength. Still Moving Northwest

The official forecast called for Intesificaton up to 80 knots or 90 mph, but I think Bertha has easily beat that for the 5PM advisory. I'm betting she's up to at least 100mph winds again, maybe even Cat 3 status again. Very impressive looking on satellite imagery right now.

I don't suppose Hurricane Hunters can be based out of Bermuda?


neospaceblue
(Weather Watcher)
Wed Jul 09 2008 08:37 PM
Bertha back to a Category Two

New advisory in has this up to Category 2 with the possibility of regaining Category 3. The forecast has it reaching Cat. 3 in 12 hours and weakening back into a Category 2 in 36 hours. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised now, if Bertha reached Category 4 with this statement:

Quote:

BERTHA IS FORECAST TO BE IN A
SEEMINGLY FAVORABLE ENVIRONMENT FOR THE NEXT DAY OR SO AND
CONTINUED STRENGTHENING IS EXPECTED IN THE SHORT-TERM.




Storm Cooper
(User)
Thu Jul 10 2008 09:23 AM
Re: Hurricane Bertha regaining some strength. Still Moving Northwest

Bertha remains a tricky system to say the least.... a part of the 5am Discussion...

BERTHA'S FORWARD MOTION HAS SLOWED A BIT AND IS NOW ABOUT 315/8. AN
ANTICYCLONE TO THE NORTH OF THE HURRICANE WILL CONTINUE TO SLIDE
EASTWARD OVER THE NEXT DAY OR TWO...SO THE TRACK OF THE HURRICANE
IS LIKELY TO BEND TOWARD THE NORTH THROUGH 48 HOURS. BEYOND THAT
TIME...THE TRACK FORECAST IS COMPLICATED BY THE FACT THAT THE
DYNAMICAL MODELS...IN PARTICULAR THE GFS...SHOW A MID-LEVEL
ANTICYCLONE DEVELOPING TO THE NORTH OF BERTHA IN AROUND 72 HOURS.
THIS DEVELOPMENT WOULD AT LEAST RETARD THE NORTHWARD PROGRESS OF
THE HURRICANE AND...IF THE ANTICYCLONE TURNS OUT TO BE STRONG
ENOUGH...COULD EVEN FORCE A TURN TO THE LEFT AS INDICATED BY THE
GFS. THE GFDL AND HWRF MODELS RESPOND TO THE INCREASED RIDGING
MAINLY BY SLOWING THE TROPICAL CYCLONE AS IT CROSSES 30N LATITUDE.
IT IS CERTAINLY POSSIBLE FOR BERTHA TO MOVE ERRATICALLY IN ABOUT 3
DAYS...BUT THE DETAILS OF THAT MOTION ARE OF COURSE UNKNOWN.


danielwAdministrator
(Moderator)
Thu Jul 10 2008 03:35 PM
Models

Current SHIPS Forecast is from 12Z.
At the 72 hour mark it is indicating Bertha should go no further west than the 31.1N/ 62.0W area. Bertha should begin to recurve from that point based on the latest SHIPS run.

The other four main Tropical Models 72 hour position from the 12Z run.
BAMS__29.3N 62.2W
BAMD__32.7N 64.6W
BAMM__30.7N 63.3W
LBAR__31.5N 61.2W


Unregistered User
(Unregistered)
Thu Jul 10 2008 03:41 PM
Re: Hurricane Bertha regaining some strength. Still Moving Northwest

What is that off the coast of SC? It's in warm water and it looks like there is some slight circulation. Could tjis be a factor that could steer Bertha?

typhoon_tip
(Meteorologist)
Thu Jul 10 2008 04:36 PM
Re: Hurricane Bertha regaining some strength. Still Moving Northwest

Quote:

What is that off the coast of SC? It's in warm water and it looks like there is some slight circulation. Could tjis be a factor that could steer Bertha?




Not at this time. If it were to somehow develop, and do so substantially, then we could consider it, but for now it is a decaying linear MCS (squall line). A cold front is pressing seaward from off the mid Atlantic and New England coasts and the activity you are noticing is associated.

I am not seeing any curl in the region, at this hour. However, fronts can be tricky, particularly as they tend to stall in the northern Gulf of Mexico, or off the southeast U.S. coast. When they do, the upper air support eventually weakens...the air masses on either side of the boundary homogenizes. The convergence along the frontal zone its self, however, lingers a bit longer and this can sometimes lead to the development of TCs.

That is not occurring at this time; and would need to, and do so significantly, before it could become an influence on Bertha. However, since a front is in fact slipping into that area, it doesn't hurt to monitor.


Ed in Va
(Weather Master)
Thu Jul 10 2008 05:38 PM
Re: Hurricane Bertha regaining some strength. Still Moving Northwest

Hmmm...the most recent GFS shows Bertha essentially stalled due east of NC 7 days from now. Anyone with thoughts on that?

typhoon_tip
(Meteorologist)
Thu Jul 10 2008 05:58 PM
Re: Hurricane Bertha regaining some strength. Still Moving Northwest

Not beyond the realm of possibilities, actually...

There is always an element of uncertainty with TCs, in particular because of the unknowns in how they will interact with the surrounding atmospheric medium. In this situation, we have cyclic trough and ridge occurrence taking place in the general regions NW-N-NE of Bertha's current direction of motion. We can assess from common wisdom that troughs will tend to excite a northward/northeast motion, but ridges will stunt that and/or even resume west motions. The problem is, there's a spectrum of possibilities in how they will effect Bertha's track (and to some extent intensity) between these two plausibilities, which depends entirely on correctly modeling the strengths and timings of the synoptics as described.

Not an easy task, particularly when subtle permutations can lead to unexpected track shifts, few of which can be correctly assessed beyond a few days time.

In general though, the 12z GFS is not really that off the going thinking as of 11am. The official call is a general NW or even N motion that will be slow, and then a potentially stall 3 days from now. This is essentially what the GFS is indicating as far as I can tell. The question in this run is what takes place beyond D4... It seems the GFS is trying to lesson the latitudes in which that next trough digs off the east coast, and that is why in this run we don't see as much acceleration toward the graveyard as the other runs/models have intimated.


Unregistered User
(Unregistered)
Thu Jul 10 2008 06:53 PM
Re: Hurricane Bertha regaining some strength. Still Moving Northwest

After looking at this satalite image,

http://www.ssd.noaa.gov/goes/east/tatl/loop-wv.html

I wonder if the fromt coming off the east coast will push Bertha a little south, and then Bertha will shift North and affect Bermuda (hopefully not).

Does anyone else see this?


Unregistered User
(Unregistered)
Thu Jul 10 2008 07:05 PM
Re: Hurricane Bertha regaining some strength. Still Moving Northwest

Found this posting on another board..the pic posted makes me wonderabout Bertha's path....

http://members.boardhost.com/hurricanecity/msg/1215709827.html


LoisCane
(Veteran Storm Chaser)
Fri Jul 11 2008 12:09 AM
Re: Hurricane Bertha regaining some strength. Still Moving Northwest

Yes, have seen it. Been there, done that..

A lot of sats, views and model discussion on sites around the web.

Despite some temporary changes in path, a few frames that flutter once west or more north Bertha is moving for now NW towards that place she wants to go when the conditions are right.

It is a little unsettling for people living in Bermuda to hear that the models don't take her north of 40 and that she will be flirting around with their island for the next few days.

http://www.ssd.noaa.gov/goes/east/natl/wv.jpg

This gives I believe a better perspective on the situation.

As Beven put well in his discussion that is online here and on other sites but not always read as much as the advisories:

"IN A MAJOR SHIFT FROM PREVIOUS RUNS...NONE OF THE
DYNAMICAL MODELS SHOW BERTHA REACHING 40N IN 5 DAYS. BASED ON
THIS...THE FORECAST TRACK WILL CALL FOR A SLOWER NORTHWARD MOTION
THAN IN THE PREVIOUS PACKAGE... WITH THE TRACK SMOOTHING THROUGH
SOME OF THE ERRATIC MOTION FORECASTS IN THE MODELS. THE NEW TRACK
IS CLOSER TO BERMUDA THAN THE PREVIOUS TRACK...AND BERTHA COULD COME
EVEN CLOSER TO BERMUDA IF THE JOGS TO THE LEFT IN THE UKMET AND
CANADIAN MODELS VERIFY."

Gonna be a long few days.


Beach
(Weather Guru)
Fri Jul 11 2008 12:24 AM
Question

Looking at the loop:

http://www.ssd.noaa.gov/goes/east/nwatl/loop-wv.html

It looks like Bertha is elongating, does that mean it will be moving in that direction?


Storm Hunter
(Veteran Storm Chaser)
Fri Jul 11 2008 03:54 PM
Re: Question

at last check AF309 was just getting to the outer fringes of Bertha... still flying at 26k ft.... and on a due east heading...

At 15:44:30Z, the observation was 216 miles (348 km) to the SW (233°) from Hamilton, Bermuda (GBR).
they were at 30.43N 67.73W @ 15:44:30Z


LoisCane
(Veteran Storm Chaser)
Fri Jul 11 2008 07:22 PM
Re: Question

Beautiful illustration of the eyes inside Bertha.

http://www.ssd.noaa.gov/goes/flt/t1/jsl.jpg

She is spinning currently almost on herself,

This is a time sensitive post but check out the precision on all sides. Rare to see.

http://www.ssd.noaa.gov/goes/flt/t1/loop-jsl.html

Evacuating energy in all directions.. spins one way and the outflow spins the other.

Good illustration of a storm without negative problems like shear


Gigsley
(Registered User)
Fri Jul 11 2008 09:55 PM
Re:new way to look

Here is a link to the recon planes that works well with Google Earth
http://wxgr.nl/ge/WXRecon.kmz



~Floydbuster
(Verified CFHC User)
Fri Jul 11 2008 11:27 PM
Re: A few changes with Bertha

Video analysis of Bertha and potential Cape Verde development
http://podweather.com/podcast/?p=310


typhoon_tip
(Meteorologist)
Sat Jul 12 2008 01:27 AM
Re: A few changes with Bertha

Quote:

Video analysis of Bertha and potential Cape Verde development
http://podweather.com/podcast/?p=310




Both the HWRF and GFDL 18z runs show a south movement. I don't think it is as wacky as that may appear. The governing synoptic evolution is that a ridge will flex stronger in about 3 or 4 days, and it is uncertain exactly what suppressive impact that will have on the latitude of Bertha. Loops in hurricane tracks do take place from time to time.

18z GFS still likes that idea of another CV spin up and it is doing so by hour 72.


Hugh
(Senior Storm Chaser)
Sat Jul 12 2008 02:11 AM
Re: A few changes with Bertha

I guess I'm not seeing things after all... I was just looking at the AVN loop of Bertha, and noted very little, if any, movement...but with the hint of a slight southward drift. A hurricane in the middle of nowhere, spinning upon itself... interesting phenomenon indeed.


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