MikeCAdministrator
(Admin)
Mon Jun 21 2010 10:55 AM
Wave in Western Caribbean Being Watched

8 AM EDT Update 25 June 2010
The wave in the western Caribbean (93L) has a decent shot (70%) of developing before hitting the Yucatan, but is still a bit disorganized, but becoming more and more organized, this morning The best chance of development now is tonight or tomorrow, if it does. There is some shear in the area where it is at they may keep it from developing before it reaches the Yucatan, once back in the gulf is a different matter.



Once past the Yucatan it may enter the western Gulf and have another shot at development, and at this point it gets a bit spread out, most likely would be near the Texas/Mexico border, but there is enough model spread to make it worth watching across the rest of the Gulf too.

Hurricane Darby in the East Pacific will likely influence and be influenced by 93L as it gets into the Gulf. Intensity wise, since it's so close to the coast and will be arriving in the Yucatan, along with some shear, and the June factor, it is still very difficult to say.

Aircraft recon will arrive in the area around 2PM to check it out, and it looks as if it is a go today. If it continues to organize like it has been this morning, it may be called as a depression this afternoon.

{{StormLinks|Invest 93L|93|1|2010|1|}}
{{StormLinks|Invest 94L|94|2|2010|2|}}
{{StormCarib}}

There is another area east of the Leeward Islands that has a low chance of development (10%) over the next few days, it is not being tracked as an invest area as of this morning.


8 PM EDT Update 24 June 2010
The wave now entering the west Caribbean (93L) has reached far enough west to kick up the chances to 60%, if it were to develop tomorrow through Saturday seems the most likely time, especially if it develops convection overnight. There is shear north of the system that may keep in in check and not develop.

It is expected to near Honduras/Nicaragua, but stay to the north and head into the Yucatan, it likely will have a chance to develop then. Once back in the gulf it may have a chance to strengthen, but it seems shear/dry air may enter into the equation the further north it gets. Those in the Yucatan and Gulf states need to monitor the wave.

Overall though, the most likely scenario still remains that it will stay mostly weak and move toward the Yucatan peninsula of Mexico.

7 AM EDT Update 24 June 2010
The wave in the Caribbean, with an apparent low level circulation southwest of Jamaica, is still holding on, but is taking the slow road toward development. The window for development is tonight through Saturday. The most likely scenario, still, is for it to enter the Yucatan with rain, and it may not develop before it gets there (or very late).



Models are very divergent on where it may eventually go, but the weaker condition of the storm suggests more westerly into the Yucatan. In short, in common with most undeveloped systems, they are still mostly unhelpful.

In short not much has changed with this all week, and it is still very worth watching in the Gulf and Yucatan for changes.

Currently Recon is scheduled to go out there this afternoon, it may be canceled if it doesn't look more organized close to then. (Update: It was canceled this morning)


7 AM EDT Update 22 June 2010
This morning the tropical wave in the central Caribbean (93L) is now south of Hispaniola and moving slowly toward the west, chances for development over the next two days are very low, but improve either Late tomorrow or Friday. Then it may have a better chance for development.

Most of the convection is a bit further north than before, which may actually slow development. IF the system stays further north or east conditions aren't as favorable for development, so this system ever developing is not a guaranteed thing.



This morning the most likely scenario still remains that it will stay mostly weak and move toward the Yucatan peninsula of Mexico, and may enter the southern Gulf after that.

There is enough possible deviation from that to keep it under watch. Intensity models are still a bit useless while there is no formed system, and exact track is a bit up in the air. Those in the the Gulf from the Panhandle and west of Florida and the Yucatan are the ones that should be watching it the closest, and recon is scheduled to go out to this system tomorrow afternoon. Hopefully this will enhance data enough to adjust the models and forecasts to get a clearer picture of what may happen.




7 AM EDT Update 21 June 2010
The wave in the central Caribbean sea is very slowly organizing, and is in an area not known for development at present. According to the National Hurricane Center It currently has a 40% chance for development over the next two days. It has formed somewhat of a broad circulation, but there is no evidence of a low level circulation currently. This likely will keep it a wave for a while, maybe until Thursday evening or Friday. However, aircraft recon is still scheduled to check the system out tomorrow.



There is enough divergence in the models to suggest that it should be watched over the next several days. The most likely track remains into the Yucatan with mostly rain. However, this all depends on a ridge possibly developing along the central and northern Gulf, which would likely keep the system further west.

Since there is no discernible low level circulation, intensity and track models aren't as useful at the moment other than trends over time.

This will have to be monitored all week to see what happens this weekend into next week.

The most likely scenario is still that 93L impacts Yucatan Mexico with rain.



9:30PM EDT Update 21 June 2010
The first signs of a low level circulation are beginning to appear, upping chances for development to about 50%. The circulation is roughly around 14.0N 72.0W. Assuming it maintains itself, it may be upgraded to a depression tomorrow, or more likely after recon gets out there on Wednesday.

Models are still a bit too soon to believe, the latest GFDL run appears too far to the north.

6PM EDT Update 21 June 2010

The wave in the Eastern Caribbean Sea (93L) is a rather large system, but currently lacks a low level circulation. Conditions around it support a low chance for tropical development, but if it can hold together the largest chances will be when it reaches the western Caribbean sea later in the week.



Earlier forecast model runs overdid the system. This system has a better chance to develop than last week's 92L, but still the overall odds are against development. The most likely scenario is that it remains a wave or a tropical depression and moves its way into the Yucatan. While the system does not have a low level circulation, models won't be of much use.

Watching the model trends over the week, and signs for more circulation is important. There is a recon flight scheduled out for Wednesday, which is probably the best opportunity for real data and I don't expect it to be upgraded (if it is at all) before that.

Again the June factor along with the Jet are probably the biggest factors against development right now. If it has a circulation when it enters the west Caribbean, then chances go up quite a bit and could actually form into something.

In short watch it closely, but ihe wave known as 93L is most likely to impact Mexico with rain.

9:15AM EDT Update 21 June 2010
The wave in the eastern Caribbean is now being tracked as 93L, which will allow for more focus, models, and analysis on it shortly.

Long range guesses and discussion of the models can be found at the forecast lounge.

Original Update
June is usually a quiet month for development without much activity to consider. This year is a bit different in that we have had one wave that we have watcher over the week, 92L, that has been torn up.

This week we have another wave in the eastern Caribbean that some of the models are picking up on, it it currently near the lesser Antilles, and at the moment, is not being tracked as an investigation area.

Attention is being placed upon it based on long range models at the moment, because one (the ECMWF/euro and Canadian models) have presented the "high hype" scenario into the Gulf. This means it's worth watching over the next few days, but that scenario right now is currently a bit of a stretch . But it will be an area to watch over the week to see where it goes and if it survives the trek across the Caribbean. There isn't a lot of data available in the region it will likely pass over in the next few days. Friday is the most likely time for development, when it gets into the western Caribbean.


Chances of the area developing in the next 48 hours are about 20%, it will likely have a better chance to develop in a couple days, if it does. We'll be watching.

You can discuss the system's long range models here at Forecast Lounge, on the models.

{{StormCarib}}


MikeCAdministrator
(Admin)
Mon Jun 21 2010 02:58 PM
Re: Another Week in June

A recon flight out to 93L has been scheduled for Wednesday.

Hugh
(Senior Storm Chaser)
Mon Jun 21 2010 05:56 PM
Re: Another Week in June

NHC has upgrade 93L to a 30% (code orange) probability of formation within 48 hours, and indicates in the 2pm TWO that conditions appear conducive for gradual development over the next couple of days - something they never said, I don't believe, with 92L even when it was a code red.

They don't mention the recon flight in the TWO, yet.


Storm Hunter
(Veteran Storm Chaser)
Mon Jun 21 2010 08:14 PM
Re: Another Week in June

93L... is getting better organized with every hour passing... i would expect a "Red Highlight" by NHC this evening and if the current trend holds a TD within 12-24 hrs... The sats this afternoon show classical formation taken place... Upper Level Winds are becoming favorable... banding is showing up in low levels and upper levels...The forecast down the road could be interesting... the GFDL and HWF did not get a good hold the first runs... but i would expect that to change this evening... i would think the surface center could be developing near 68w 14n?

http://www.ssd.noaa.gov/goes/flt/t1/flash-vis.html
Close-Up

(TCPOD)
I. ATLANTIC REQUIREMENTS
1. NEGATIVE RECONNAISSANCE REQUIREMENTS.
2. SUCCEEDING DAY OUTLOOK: POSSIBLE LOW LEVEL
INVEST NEAR 16.ON 77.0W AT 23/1800Z.


Hugh
(Senior Storm Chaser)
Mon Jun 21 2010 09:00 PM
Re: Another Week in June

I see definate BANDING, Storm Hunter, but I see absolutely ZERO indication of a circulation.
It might exist, but I don't see it - yet! Having said that, this infrared loop: http://www.ssd.noaa.gov/goes/east/watl/flash-avn.html
does show banding as well, and the visible equivalent hints at a circulation forming near 15n 68w, just a bit north of where you indicated, I think. It's not a well organized LLC by any means, but it wouldn't shock me for the airplane to find a weak LLC when it gets there (Wednesday?)


metwannabe
(Weather Hobbyist)
Mon Jun 21 2010 09:02 PM
Re: Another Week in June

It really does look as if it is venting in all directions, no apparent shear to disrupt it. I'm guessing this could get interesting in many ways, the hype of a "possible" tropical system in the Gulf is just one way!

Storm Hunter
(Veteran Storm Chaser)
Mon Jun 21 2010 11:45 PM
Re: Another Week in June

Quote:

I see definate BANDING, Storm Hunter, but I see absolutely ZERO indication of a circulation.
It might exist, but I don't see it - yet! Having said that, this infrared loop: http://www.ssd.noaa.gov/goes/east/watl/flash-avn.html
does show banding as well, and the visible equivalent hints at a circulation forming near 15n 68w, just a bit north of where you indicated, I think. It's not a well organized LLC by any means, but it wouldn't shock me for the airplane to find a weak LLC when it gets there (Wednesday?)




my bad... i should be more specific... i don't see a "tight circulation"... but more of a "broader center of circulation"... the afternoon sats due in my opinion show a surface area under the complex of storms as mentioned in the above posts.. near both our cords. The 18Z GFDL is picking up on system now... latest run is a little concerning... time to watch and see!

PS: Stewart bumped the 8pm TWO up to 50% chance in next 48hrs


MichaelA
(Weather Analyst)
Tue Jun 22 2010 01:10 AM
Re: Another Week in June

Yes, that GFDL run is more than a bit disconcerting since I will be away on vacation for the next 10 days. If that verifies, I may have to return home early.

Hugh
(Senior Storm Chaser)
Tue Jun 22 2010 01:43 AM
Re: Another Week in June

Quote:


my bad... i should be more specific... i don't see a "tight circulation"... but more of a "broader center of circulation"... the afternoon sats due in my opinion show a surface area under the complex of storms as mentioned in the above posts.. near both our cords. The 18Z GFDL is picking up on system now... latest run is a little concerning... time to watch and see!
PS: Stewart bumped the 8pm TWO up to 50% chance in next 48hrs




Yeah, it definately bears watching. Interesting that the NHC got more bullish, while MikeC got bearish... curious.

New intensity model runs are much less bullish than the earlier ones, but until there is something there, the models really are useless. The DMIN has not been kind to 93L tonight, convections is very disorganized (what's left of the convection right now). Tomorrow will be interesting. I tend to agree with Mike that it won't be upgraded without recon confirmation of a LLC, if one ever exists.

The latest GFDL run appears to pull the system my way, or even east of me, into the Big Bend, or maybe even south of there.


MikeCAdministrator
(Admin)
Tue Jun 22 2010 01:48 AM
Re: Another Week in June

I think this system has an overall better chance to develop than 92L ever did, but I'm just not buying the models, and think the GFDL is too far off right now. I want to watch it trend over the next day or two and see if it holds together. I speculate a bit more in the lounge.

kromdog
(Weather Hobbyist)
Tue Jun 22 2010 01:49 AM
Re: Another Week in June

We may find out sooner then we would like what a storm in the Gulf is going to do to all that oil and the relief efforts.

Storm Hunter
(Veteran Storm Chaser)
Tue Jun 22 2010 02:09 AM
Attachment
Re: Another Week in June

its appears in the last few images from the sats that there may be a "center" surface location near 15N 69W?

http://www.ssd.noaa.gov/goes/flt/t1/flash-ir2.html


weatherguy08
(Weather Hobbyist)
Tue Jun 22 2010 02:33 AM
Re: Another Week in June

I definitely see some kinda spin trying to, well, spin up in the area Storm Hunter is mentioning. This might be the area to watch overnight as we hit the diurnal maximum. It's going to be difficult to pinpoint a LLC or surface center without the reconnaissance flight scheduled for Wednesday since there's a lacking of good surface data in the area. It should also be noted that a few of the WFO on the Gulf Coast have mentioned the possibility of something entering the Gulf early next week.

danielwAdministrator
(Moderator)
Tue Jun 22 2010 07:28 AM
Attachment
93L

As of the 06Z model run. There are now 3 models in the Southern GOM at the 5 day point... GFDL, HWRF AND TVCN.
All three cross Cuba and move into the GOM after 3 1/2 days.
CLP5 crosses Cancun,MX and the three BAM models cross the lower/ mid Yucatan Peninsula.
Euro is outlier with a slow track toward Belize.

Latest 93L model plot here:
https://my.sfwmd.gov/sfwmd/common/images/weather/plots/storm_93.gif

See attachment for the 0515 rgb image. Lightning beginning to show in main cloud. Just south of Dominican Republic.


Storm Hunter
(Veteran Storm Chaser)
Tue Jun 22 2010 09:47 AM
Re: 93L

i would of expected the 00Z GFDL to move left.. instead it moved north and maybe east... the far right outlier... it also troubles me with what it does in the GOM in 5-6 days... but yet the HWF does a loop in central carib. and then takes left over to SE GOM... weird... until we get a surface feature... the models i think are going to move all over the place... the GFS just stays calm with wave... very interesting to say/watch

http://moe.met.fsu.edu/tcgengifs/gfdl/2010062200-invest93l/slp21.png


Hugh
(Senior Storm Chaser)
Tue Jun 22 2010 11:56 AM
Re: 93L

Well, the NHC actually dropped the probability from 50% to 40% in the 8am TWO. It's looking more ragged again today. They have yet to mention tomorrow's recon in the TWO, which is curious.

GFDL and BAMS are a bit disturbing. No, they're very disturbing, still. HWRF is just wacked out.

Once it gets into the W. Caribbean things could pop in a big hurry, unfortunately.


Wingman51
(Weather Guru)
Tue Jun 22 2010 12:52 PM
Re: 93L

Just looked at CMC and it is Whacked - - shows 2 systems training into the north gulf next week????

hogrunr
(Weather Guru)
Tue Jun 22 2010 02:24 PM
Re: 93L

Looking at the RGB satellite loop, there is definitely more activity in 93L's lower levels this morning. Yesterday was definitely all and upper level spin, while today, even though I wouldn't call it an LLC, it definitely has more spin going in the lower level clouds.

Most of the models seem to be moving towards the system entering the central to western gulf alot more than they were yesterday. ECMWF, HWRF, GFDL all of the system doing this. While I agree that the models won't really have a good grip on what the possibilities of this system are as long as it stays this unorganized, I take their shift westward in track as a sign they are starting to agree that the ridge that will be present over the northern GOM will not be leaving as soon as they believed, thus pushing the system further west.

Overall the system still is poised to be one that could make a rapid increase in intensity because of its location in the Caribbean and because of just about every other environmental variable around it.


scottsvb
(Weather Master)
Tue Jun 22 2010 03:42 PM
Re: 93L

I dont see any LLC with 93L its all SE and E winds until you get down in the SW carribean. What alot are seeing is the midlevel convergence T-Storms just south of Hispaniola. I dont think anything is close to forming for @ least 2-3 days until its closer to 80W

Beach
(Weather Guru)
Tue Jun 22 2010 03:51 PM
Re: 93L

If 93L holds together into the Gulf , I guess we will see the results of the debate of if oily water, can feed a system. Folks claim that oily water will not evaporate and help in keeping a system from growing. Currently the Gulf is 86 / 87 degrees, time will tell if that converts to tropical energy.
:?:


JoshuaK
(Weather Guru)
Tue Jun 22 2010 04:05 PM
Re: 93L

Is it my imagination, or does the latest visible satellite loops (Jun 22nd 15:15 UTC being the latest one) show multipule LLC vorticies forming within a cluster of persistent convection extending from 19N to 15N and 73W to 70W?

weatherguy08
(Weather Hobbyist)
Tue Jun 22 2010 04:06 PM
Re: 93L

Looking at the latest visible loop, seems like something could be get established around 16 N, 71 W. There's also deep convection firing around this "center" in the last frame. It will be interesting to see if some of this convection can wrap around the center. The lack of surface obs in the region isn't helping to establish if there is a surface circulation of any kind. I pretty much agree with what the others have said: we won't really know until reconnaissance gets out there tomorrow afternoon.

Visible loop: http://www.ssd.noaa.gov/goes/flt/t1/flash-vis.html
Infrared loop: http://www.ssd.noaa.gov/goes/flt/t1/flash-avn.html


Unregistered User
(Unregistered)
Tue Jun 22 2010 04:15 PM
Re: 93L

My ussue with the Forecast models right now is how far south they have been initialized. Proximity to Hispaniola will obviously inhibit development early on.... otherwise we should see the typical, realitively gradual, organization process.

Have a great day!
Take care...
Chris


hogrunr
(Weather Guru)
Tue Jun 22 2010 04:28 PM
Re: 93L

Agreed...based on what is starting to show up on the satellite images now, the models have almost all been initialized to far south, but going through the rest of today should start to get things ironed out, if in fact an LLC is trying to form.

That being said, because of 93L's position, I don't believe the interaction with Hispaniola will hinder the development so much, since this would require an almost due north turn. I believe the possibility of future interaction with Jamaica and/or Cuba will be a big determining factor in the possibility of future development.

All of the models are fluctuating based on their assumption that this will interact with land, either Cuba or the Yucatan, thus hindering development. So this is still a crap shoot as far as the models are concerned, they (almost) all started very strong on this, based on the system shooting the gap between Cuba and the Yucatan, and now have backed off due to their own predicted land interaction, so we will most likely just need to wait and see what direction this system takes before any valid prediction of intensity can be made.


ftlaudbob
(Storm Chaser)
Tue Jun 22 2010 05:53 PM
Re: 93L

As of 2pmest the NHC has lowered the chance of development to 20%.But it also states the over that next few days it could have a better chance of getting organized.

weatherguy08
(Weather Hobbyist)
Tue Jun 22 2010 06:08 PM
Re: 93L

I'm a bit surprised the NHC went all the way down to 20%. There definitely seems to be a better circulation (maybe not low-level) than there was yesterday, wind shear remains low, and virtually all of the models except the GFS develop the system. I could have maybe seen 30% or 40%, but 20% seems quite low. I guess all things considered, it's just a number, but it looks reasonably organized, not enough for a depression obviously, but I would probably say there is a 40% chance of development during the next 48 hours.

Ed in Va
(Weather Master)
Tue Jun 22 2010 06:43 PM
Re: 93L

I've got to believe its the proximity to the DR/Haiti for the next couple of days that caused the back-off.

SeaMule
(Weather Hobbyist)
Tue Jun 22 2010 06:46 PM
Re: 93L

...can't remember a time when a developing system could get through the Carribean this time of year.

I know what my eyes are seeing...a developing wave. ...imho, it will be a named storm before it gets to the GOM


stormtiger
(Weather Hobbyist)
Tue Jun 22 2010 06:48 PM
Re: 93L

Yes, the fact that the weather is closer to the DR, it's also closer to the subtrpical jet and thus the sheer.

Plus you have to remember, it is June and despite the high water temps, there has to be good reasons for storms not to form in the east and central carribean at this time of the year.

I see mid level vortex now, but it is quite a bit north of where the models were initiating a s depression yesterday. This has to change everything we've seen from the models.

If something does form, it is more likely it will be later than sooner; and weaker than strong.


danielwAdministrator
(Moderator)
Tue Jun 22 2010 07:52 PM
Attachment
Re: 93L

The only thing that I see different right now is the terrain of Hispaniola seems to be blocking some of the low and mid level shear.
Hispaniola Topography Map

Current static visible shot here, 1km Visible Goes East
Center near 19.6N/ 71.4W, or just south of the southern most point of Hispaniola. Cape Beata.
Static visible at time of this post in the above attachment.

Select a 6 image loop at medium zoom and you can identify a rather vigorous vortice just S to SSW of Cape Beata.


weatherguy08
(Weather Hobbyist)
Tue Jun 22 2010 08:31 PM
Re: 93L

It appears that our system is farther north and east than the 18Z models have initialized it. This will have significant repercussions on the eventual track and intensity of the system since it will likely move closer to the islands. I'm beginning to lean a little more towards the models on the right (north and east) side of the model envelope. While they initialize a little too far south as well, the present motion of the system (northwest at about 15 mph) should take it right into the current forecast track of the HWRF and GFDL during the next 12 to 24 hours. Assuming development occurs, the Gulf Coast definitely needs to watch this.

Storm Hunter
(Veteran Storm Chaser)
Tue Jun 22 2010 08:49 PM
Re: 93L

after studying all available images today... appears to me that the mid level center is northeast of the surface broad area of circulation... i would point the surface area near 16N 75W....

Speed the loop up and look at the lower clouds...
http://www.meteo.psu.edu/ewall/SATATL_FLOAT2/anim16vis.html


B_from_NC
(Verified CFHC User)
Tue Jun 22 2010 09:26 PM
Re: 93L

I concur. The poorly organized center of all those clouds certainly appears to be where the 18z models suggest. The mid-level swirl which faked itself as center should wind down soon.

4km Floater


Other observations....
Overall system is quite large and might take a bit to wind up.
Gulf region should certianly have their kits ready in the event it makes it out of the graveyard.


Storm Hunter
(Veteran Storm Chaser)
Wed Jun 23 2010 12:12 AM
Re: 93L

after looking at 18Z data... a curve in the GOM is looking more likely to me... just when and where is way to far out to tell... the GFDL still is agressive with the system in GOM... 18Z GFDL is very concering... this path would be bad for the central gulf coast... including the Oil Spill area... a system coming north and on the west side of the oil spill would be devasting to the Gulf Coast....

http://moe.met.fsu.edu/tcgengifs/gfdl/2010062218-invest93l/slp21.png

**Appears tonight that the broad area of circulation is begining to fire up storms near where i think we may have surface low form...tonight will be interesting to watch**


Hugh
(Senior Storm Chaser)
Wed Jun 23 2010 01:50 AM
Re: 93L

Quote:

after looking at 18Z data... a curve in the GOM is looking more likely to me... just when and where is way to far out to tell... the GFDL still is agressive with the system in GOM... 18Z GFDL is very concering... this path would be bad for the central gulf coast... including the Oil Spill area... a system coming north and on the west side of the oil spill would be devasting to the Gulf Coast....
http://moe.met.fsu.edu/tcgengifs/gfdl/2010062218-invest93l/slp21.png
**Appears tonight that the broad area of circulation is begining to fire up storms near where i think we may have surface low form...tonight will be interesting to watch**




I agree, tonight will be interesting. The big question I'm not convinced about is whether it even develops at all. It's cycling back and forth between being on the verge of developing and on the verge of falling apart, which I guess is normal this time of year.

All of the 18z data appears to point to an Opal-like track, going very near (possibly over) the Yucatan, before hooking toward the east-central Gulf Coast. Of course, the models could change once it gets its act together, but it definately looks like a POTENTIALLY devastating situation could arise.


MikeCAdministrator
(Admin)
Wed Jun 23 2010 01:59 AM
Re: 93L

The model trend today is heading more north, possibly in the gulf. Although development, if it does, looks to be more Thursday/Friday. For future track, the Yucatan is holding as most likely, especially if the system stays weak longer, but the Gulf still needs to watch this system.

Hugh
(Senior Storm Chaser)
Wed Jun 23 2010 02:05 AM
Re: 93L

Quote:

The model trend today is heading more north, possibly in the gulf. Although development, if it does, looks to be more Thursday/Friday. For future track, the Yucatan is holding as most likely, especially if the system stays weak longer, but the Gulf still needs to watch this system.




Is the recon still scheduled for tomorrow? It doesn't seem to be organized enough right now to justify recon, but that could change tomorrow. I don't quite understand what you mean.... model trend is heading more north, but the Yucatan is most likely?


Storm Hunter
(Veteran Storm Chaser)
Wed Jun 23 2010 02:10 AM
Re: 93L

Yes.. Recon is still planned....

WEATHER RECONNAISSANCE FLIGHTS
CARCAH, NATIONAL HURRICANE CENTER, MIAMI, FL.
1100 AM EDT TUE 22 JUNE 2010
SUBJECT: TROPICAL CYCLONE PLAN OF THE DAY (TCPOD)
VALID 23/1100Z TO 24/1100Z JUNE 2010
TCPOD NUMBER.....10-022

I. ATLANTIC REQUIREMENTS
1. SUSPECT AREA (SOUTH OF JAMAICA)
FLIGHT ONE - TEAL 70
A. 23/1800Z
B. AFXXX 01AAA INVEST
C. 23/1330Z
D. 17.0N 77.5W
E. 23/1700Z TO 23/2100Z
F. SFC TO 10,000 FT

FLIGHT TWO - TEAL 71
A. 24/0600Z
B. AFXXX 0201A CYCLONE
C. 24/0100Z
D. 17.5N 79.5W
E. 24/0400Z TO 24/0830Z
F. SFC TO 10,000 FT

2. SUCCEEDING DAY OUTLOOK: CONTINUE 12 HRLY
FIXES IF SYSTEM REMAINS A THREAT.


Storm Hunter
(Veteran Storm Chaser)
Wed Jun 23 2010 02:15 AM
Attachment
Re: 93L

Its appears that TAFB/NHC thinking tonight is much more active on developing a system now... the 72hr surface plot puts a low off MX coast... with possible tropical cyclone development starting late tmrw., and an track into the GOM.

see attached


danielwAdministrator
(Moderator)
Wed Jun 23 2010 04:09 AM
Satellite Caution

Use caution with the satellite shots from www.ssd.noaa.gov.
For the last two nights they are nearly 4 hours behind. it's 0407Z and latest shots are 0015Z.

It appears they have made an adjustment. Sats are running less than one hour behind at 0740z. 3:40 EDT


WeatherNut
(Weather Master)
Wed Jun 23 2010 01:21 PM
Re: 93L

Well guys its starting to look like we are cookin with gas now. The western most blob is showing some definite rotation and is beginning to absorb the eastern blob and bundle the energy. I think today might be the day this is going to get cranking. It is looking more impressive on the visible than it has to date

Wingman51
(Weather Guru)
Wed Jun 23 2010 01:31 PM
Re: 93L

NHC - - upgrades to Orange again - - do ya'll think the High Pressure ridge in the gulf will hold?

scottsvb
(Weather Master)
Wed Jun 23 2010 02:32 PM
Re: 93L

Yeah but the western blob is only a midlevel rotation.. we need a surface LLC and its forming slowly further west of Jamaica..it will take 30-48hrs @ least.

MikeCAdministrator
(Admin)
Wed Jun 23 2010 02:51 PM
Re: 93L

Recon flights were pushed back to tomorrow afternoon, and looking at the system today that was a good call.

danielwAdministrator
(Moderator)
Wed Jun 23 2010 04:02 PM
93L and X92L

Visible satellite loop is showing two distinct vortices in the area.
93L located south of Haiti has a mass of low to mid level clouds over the COC.

X92L located just to the west of Jamaica is void of any central convection but still has a strong vortice that is visible on the loops.

I thought I saw both of these last night but IR isn't easy to pick out 3D objects.

I used the GHCC Visible 1 km page animation. Rotation is visible using a minimum of 3 images. Medium zoom and clink on the map just south of the Haitian Peninsula.

This may be why the Bam models are split with the others. One vortice will cross the Yucatan and the other goes toward the Northern GOM.

Heads up BP and the northern GOM. A popup storm will surprise you more than you think.


hogrunr
(Weather Guru)
Wed Jun 23 2010 05:37 PM
Re: 93L and X92L

That is a good catch danielw. This means that, looking at the initialized positions of all of the 6z and even some of the 12z models that are coming out, their initial positions for 93L are still way too far south and west of where it is actually located.

MikeCAdministrator
(Admin)
Wed Jun 23 2010 06:34 PM
Re: 93L and X92L

Yes all the models are suspect, mainly because there still is no low level circulation, and they have all initialized what appears to be too far south and west.

If this develops it could get interesting quite fast, but don't buy into any intensity models this far out, especially as disorganized as the system is now.


doug
(Weather Analyst)
Wed Jun 23 2010 07:09 PM
Re: 93L and X92L

There seems to be a mid level cyclonic spin south of the Hatian peninsula. There seems to be a low level cyclonic tumble that is south of Jamica. All the energy is south and west of Hispanola, although some energy is gathering east of the low level spin near Jamica. My bet is on the eastern part of this developing, as the convergence of energy seems to be taking place there.
The models are taking the western point as their point of beginning. All bets are off until the spin really begins.
If that does occur back toward Haiti it wll deepen quickly. If the western point takes control that will take a little longer. We should look back iagain n about 12-14 hours (in the morning).


stormtiger
(Weather Hobbyist)
Wed Jun 23 2010 07:12 PM
Re: 93L and X92L

doug,

Is that low level spin or is that another mid level vortex?

Interesting look isn't it?


doug
(Weather Analyst)
Wed Jun 23 2010 07:25 PM
Re: 93L and X92L

If you mean the area south and slightly west of Jamaica, the low level clouds are seeming to rotate around a broad area. There is little or no convection there. It is all back to the west. Accuweather analyst this afternoon stated in the webcast this afternoon that this is the LLC of the developing system, and the models all run from this point. I don't necessarily agree, but what do I know?
The area south of Haiti does not show the low level couds circulating around the point of the spin which is clearly seen in the AVN and WV views. This indicates to me the spin there is well off the surface. The majority of the convective activity is there.


MikeCAdministrator
(Admin)
Wed Jun 23 2010 07:36 PM
Re: 93L and X92L

The new best track position is 16.6N 78.6W which is more north and west than the old ones.

hogrunr
(Weather Guru)
Wed Jun 23 2010 07:45 PM
Re: 93L and X92L

I'm going to have to still agree with danielw and doug on this one. I don't think that just because there is an LLC in the general vicinity of the wave that this means the two are related. I think they may be two separate entities. I may be wrong, but I think the LLC at 16.6N 78.6W is an extraneous vortice.

weatherguy08
(Weather Hobbyist)
Wed Jun 23 2010 07:57 PM
Re: 93L and X92L

I agree that the LLC west of Jamaica likely won't be the focus of the potential tropical cyclone here. This is some little meso-low type thing that showed up and will probably dissipate, especially with the lack of any convection. I've seen it happen many times that there is a persistent, strong MLC that eventually mixes its way down to the surface that becomes a tropical depression.

doug
(Weather Analyst)
Wed Jun 23 2010 08:31 PM
Re: 93L and X92L

Actually that area is more impressive now than several hours ago.

stormtiger
(Weather Hobbyist)
Wed Jun 23 2010 09:17 PM
Re: 93L and X92L

I do see a broad, low level area around 15.5/79.5. It looks the most organized now, but it is almost void of thunderstorms. Is that the area you are describing, Doug?

Most of the thunderstorm activity is further NE around 17/76.

I don't think 93L is much closer to becoming a TD than it was 2 days ago.


danielwAdministrator
(Moderator)
Wed Jun 23 2010 09:47 PM
Re: 93L and X92L

Ok so my eyes weren't deceiving me. You guys see two vortices also.
Western vortice looks more active than earlier today. Early wispy cirrus clouds starting to encompass the COC. Weak looking compared to the Haitian system.
What has mme most confused is the cloud shapes over the lower Bahamas. The two arc shaped clouds should indicate the 'center' of the wave and the max amplitude above the equator. Amplitutde is better seen on WV imagery.
Western vortice is way ahead of the central wave and eastern vortice is lagging a bit behind.

Given the lack of development I find it slightly strange that these systems are basically tracking along the path of the initial model run. Just have to figure out which one is headed for the Yucatan and which one is headed for the GOM.
Since the Bermuda ridge and E TX high are in place I would think that the western system will go to MX. Then ridge breaks down. High moves east and opens the door for eastern vortice to gain latitude and recurve into the GOM.
This may belong in the Forecast Lounge as some of the my post is based on the models.

EDIT 5:47 EDT-Just noticed that the SSD satellite site has moved the 93L floater to the western vortice. This could get interesting very quickly. I don't think this virtice will TD overnight but current posistion shortens the trip and nulls out most of my above post.

Also of interest is a huge wave, although low in latitude, that just moved off the African Coast. Easily seen on TWC Tropical Update when they show the Western Hemishere (Big Blue Marble) IR image.


hogrunr
(Weather Guru)
Wed Jun 23 2010 10:48 PM
Re: 93L and X92L

There are still definitely two strong areas of vorticity involved with this wave. As seen on the CIMSS 850mb Vorticity map. The western vortex has definitely picked up steam late today, so is it to late to change my mind about what I said earlier about it dissipating? Tonight could get very interesting with this crazy complicated wave.

Hugh
(Senior Storm Chaser)
Wed Jun 23 2010 11:45 PM
Re: 93L and X92L

Quote:

Ok so my eyes weren't deceiving me. You guys see two vortices also.

EDIT 5:47 EDT-Just noticed that the SSD satellite site has moved the 93L floater to the western vortice. This could get interesting very quickly. I don't think this virtice will TD overnight but current posistion shortens the trip and nulls out most of my above post.

Also of interest is a huge wave, although low in latitude, that just moved off the African Coast. Easily seen on TWC Tropical Update when they show the Western Hemishere (Big Blue Marble) IR image.




Two vortices???? I've been in a meeting all day and I'm just now looking at the TWO and the loops. I see ZERO vortices. Granted, I'm looking at the SSD AVN loop and not a visible loop, but I just don't see any signs of organization right now. What am I missing?

What do you mean by "current position shortens the trip". Do you mean it will move into the Yucatan quickly? I'm confused!!!


hogrunr
(Weather Guru)
Thu Jun 24 2010 12:41 AM
Re: 93L and X92L

hugh


it has been a confusng day with this wave, or should I say, THESE waves. I know I've been all over the place on this today, but I think I've got it straight in my head. In reading the latest TWO, the NHC has two different waveslisted here. One is the vortex that is to the SW of Jamaica. You probably can't see it on the AVN since this wave has had amost no convection today, until later tonight anyway. The second wave is listed in the TWO at approx. 65W, just over and suth of Hait. The convections of the two havebeen mixing all day and has aided the confuson. Sorry fornot pasting in the info from the TWO, I am on my phone.

Hope that helps some!


LoisCane
(Veteran Storm Chaser)
Thu Jun 24 2010 01:34 AM
Re: 93L and X92L

The only real possible vortex I see is off of Jamaica as mentioned above. It has pulsed up and down for a while tonight. Still think the jury is out. The whole set up is dramatically changing today and watching the ULL north of Cuba. I don't know think tomorrow is the day it either does or doesn't.

http://www.ssd.noaa.gov/goes/east/carb/flash-wv.html


Hugh
(Senior Storm Chaser)
Thu Jun 24 2010 02:26 AM
Re: 93L and X92L

I keep staring at that loop. I still don't see a vortex. I see quite a bit of disorganized convection, but nothing else.

Lamar-Plant City
(Storm Tracker)
Thu Jun 24 2010 03:21 AM
Re: 93L and X92L

Quote:

I keep staring at that loop. I still don't see a vortex. I see quite a bit of disorganized convection, but nothing else.



Take the visible loop from the floater. Then look at only the first 9 images. Rock them back and forth and I THINK I see a bit of a spin directly southwest of Jamaica and appearing to move wsw away from it. Is that the western one?


hogrunr
(Weather Guru)
Thu Jun 24 2010 03:27 AM
Re: 93L and X92L

Take a look at the RGB below before the day/night transition...To me, the RGB is always the easiest image to see the LLC on.

http://www.ssd.noaa.gov/goes/flt/t1/flash-rgb.html


Lamar-Plant City
(Storm Tracker)
Thu Jun 24 2010 03:31 AM
Re: 93L and X92L

Quote:

Take a look at the RGB below before the day/night transition...To me, the RGB is always the easiest image to see the LLC on.

http://www.ssd.noaa.gov/goes/flt/t1/flash-rgb.html




Yeah....when I said the 'first 9 images' above, those are all the images before the night line comes across. It is there. Just not much around it yet.


Hugh
(Senior Storm Chaser)
Thu Jun 24 2010 12:03 PM
Re: 93L and X92L

Quote:

Quote:

Take a look at the RGB below before the day/night transition...To me, the RGB is always the easiest image to see the LLC on.

http://www.ssd.noaa.gov/goes/flt/t1/flash-rgb.html




Yeah....when I said the 'first 9 images' above, those are all the images before the night line comes across. It is there. Just not much around it yet.




Well, I *now* see a spin... SOUTHEAST of Jamaica... just offshore. Southwest, I see clear skies, with absolutely zero rotation. I see the exact same feature no matter which satellite I look at


MikeCAdministrator
(Admin)
Thu Jun 24 2010 12:31 PM
Re: 93L and X92L

The interesting thing about the area southeast of Jamaica, is that it may wind up taking over. It could even be considered a new possible invest area (It's not really even the same wave), but I'm not sure how that would be handled -- probably just continuing as 93

If this area kicks up then it changes things as far as the track discussed in the article.

Mostly it means the model runs this morning are all but worthless... again.

Also the recon flight for today has been canceled.


Hugh
(Senior Storm Chaser)
Thu Jun 24 2010 12:50 PM
Re: 93L and X92L

If it's not even the same wave then I'm totally lost, because right now, that's all that is left of whatever 93L once was. Then again, I'm not seeing the conducive condtions that the NHC says are present, either - I see a lot of shear.

This might still develop, but I'm thinking the probability is closer to 5% than the 40% the NHC places on it.


Unregistered User
(Unregistered)
Thu Jun 24 2010 01:26 PM
Re: 93L and X92L

I realy don't see what the big deal is. I know the models are saying something is going to develope but i just don't see it. To much shear. Alot of times when there is talk of something that will develope and it constantly has problems doing so most cases it don't. Even it it does develope it will probably be just before it crosses the yucatan and then all bets are off because it will be on land. I give a 0% chance of develping. I certainly don't see a cat 2 hurricane.

stormtiger
(Weather Hobbyist)
Thu Jun 24 2010 01:34 PM
Re: 93L and X92L

This morning it looks less organized and that the thunderstorm activity is more scattered than it has been.

The rotation I saw yesterday around 17/79.5 appears to be gone although it's kind of early to tell, but there certainly isn't any weather there.

There are reasons storms seldom form in the central Carribean and there are reasons storms don't form often in June. I guess we're seeing why.

Several models had this thing taking off, but the GFS had it doing zilch. It looks like the GFs was right.


hogrunr
(Weather Guru)
Thu Jun 24 2010 02:07 PM
Attachment
Re: 93L and X92L

Quote:

The interesting thing about the area southeast of Jamaica, is that it may wind up taking over. It could even be considered a new possible invest area (It's not really even the same wave), but I'm not sure how that would be handled -- probably just continuing as 93

If this area kicks up then it changes things as far as the track discussed in the article.

Mostly it means the model runs this morning are all but worthless... again.

Also the recon flight for today has been canceled.





Attached a picture showing the area of spin that is present today. It is embedded in the largest areas of convection for now. There is some shear present, but according to CIMSS , it's only under about 10 knots, which is pretty low. There is higher shear to the north, but as the NHC keeps saying, it is forecast to improve.

I think this wave, or multiple waves, however you want to look at it, has been a nightmare for people looking at it, let alone the models. All of the models are still initializing much to far south and west for the are of spin that is present this morning.

Also, a drastic increase in vorticity is present where the new area of spin is located.

http://cimss.ssec.wisc.edu/tropic2/real-...zoom=&time=


Lamar-Plant City
(Storm Tracker)
Thu Jun 24 2010 02:44 PM
Re: 93L and X92L

This morning I had to leave the floater and just zoom in from the caribbean sector to that area east of Jamaica. Lots of chaos going on in there and tough to see any patterns. I see the spin south east of Jamaica, but it doesn't seem to be persisting in the later frames. Impressive convection due south of Haiti and something could certainly be cooking beneath that. Overall, though I have to agree with those here that are not impressed with this system overall. It is really having a tough time getting going although it isn't going away any time soon.

WeatherNut
(Weather Master)
Thu Jun 24 2010 03:56 PM
Re: 93L and X92L

There is definitely spin at 16n76w on the CIMSS visible satellite

http://cimss.ssec.wisc.edu/tropic2/real-...0000&loop=0

The thing that has been missing all along is vorticity. Everything else seems to be in place. If it can get some spin and convection then I think it should develop. The problem is the system cant get vertically stacked


doug
(Weather Analyst)
Thu Jun 24 2010 04:57 PM
Re: 93L and X92L

The only low level spin is a very broad spin that seems centered very near the coast of Houduras/ Nicuragua. Otherwise it seems to be an open but active wave with an excellent signature.

scottsvb
(Weather Master)
Thu Jun 24 2010 04:57 PM
Re: 93L and X92L

There is nothing @ the surface or close to the surface east of Jamaica.. 93L is SW of there moving slowly W with no convection around the LLC with a trough extending south of there. Everything E and SE of Jamaica is in the midlevels.

Storm Hunter
(Veteran Storm Chaser)
Thu Jun 24 2010 05:36 PM
Attachment
Re: 93L and X92L

Quote:

The only low level spin is a very broad spin that seems centered very near the coast of Houduras/ Nicuragua. Otherwise it seems to be an open but active wave with an excellent signature.




agree... i attached a image to what i see... I'm dropping my chances on 93L... due to it being close to the coast... and i still see some shear to the NW of surface area.... but the overall pattern of the surface area i have been tracking is much easier to define then the last two days... I am starting to think we will get a second area of this wave to the north or maybe into the GOM.. some piece of energy will spit off this wave and form in NW Carib.

http://www.ssd.noaa.gov/goes/flt/t1/flash-vis.html

PS: i'm still puzzled by the lastest run of the 12z GFDL ( 12z run )... is still throwing the system up the the central GOM...


Hawkeyewx
(Weather Analyst)
Thu Jun 24 2010 07:21 PM
Re: 93L and X92L

The surface spin off the coast of Honduras/Nicaragua is definitely a dominant feature so it will take a while for this system to organize. I'm not too excited about its future at this point.

stormtiger
(Weather Hobbyist)
Thu Jun 24 2010 07:31 PM
Re: 93L and X92L

Scott, that's how I saw it yesterday, and little has changed today except there's more weather around some kind of mid level circulation at about 16/77.

Nothing is getting better organized from what I have seen for three days now.


cieldumort
(Moderator)
Thu Jun 24 2010 08:04 PM
Re: Wave in Central Caribbean Still Slowly Developing

As of Thursday afternoon, while 93L has had several transient circulations in the past (mostly in the mid-levels) it is becoming clear that a much more prominent surface low is taking hold roughly around 16N and 82W, and conditions have finally once again become increasingly favorable for further development, provided the system remains over enough water, for enough time.

NRL has raised a TCFA for 93L.


stormtiger
(Weather Hobbyist)
Thu Jun 24 2010 09:21 PM
Re: Wave in Central Caribbean Still Slowly Developing

Thunderstorms geting closer and closer to the "center" of the broad circulation near 16/82. There is high pressure aloft here and things might pop tomorrow.

We'll have to see is the Ts substain themselves. Pressure is shown as 1008mb.


WeatherNut
(Weather Master)
Thu Jun 24 2010 09:25 PM
Re: Wave in Central Caribbean Still Slowly Developing

Pressures at buoy 42057 have fallen 2.2 mb over the last 3 hours (and still falling) so something is going on in that vicinity

Storm Hunter
(Veteran Storm Chaser)
Thu Jun 24 2010 09:37 PM
Re: Wave in Central Caribbean Still Slowly Developing

After looks at a few images today... it appears to me that 93L has slowed or maybe even stalled some... maybe a slow movement south in last two hours... one thing i'm see, is it appears the forward speed of 10mph does not appear happening and storms are begining to fire closer around the COC... especially to the North and NE of COC. How long will the slow moition be? Anyone else see it?

Hugh
(Senior Storm Chaser)
Thu Jun 24 2010 11:23 PM
Re: Wave in Central Caribbean Still Slowly Developing

It appears that the convection has continued moving WSW, while the LLC has indeed come to a near dead stop off the coast. Convection is very ragged on the edges, but it's a lot more co-located with the apparent LLC than it was 24 hours ago, to me. It still looks like there's shear blocking it from getting into the Gulf, though. The 8pm TWO may move the percentage up a bit, I'd bet.

Edit: 60%, Code Red. Language indicates that it is expected to hit the Yucatan as a TD (doesn't actually SAY that, but the implication is there)


WeatherNut
(Weather Master)
Thu Jun 24 2010 11:47 PM
Attachment
Re: Wave in Central Caribbean Still Slowly Developing

It looks like the LLC might be getting pulled under the strong convection to the east that is currently firing up. It was expected that steering would become weak in this area as well. Also pressure is still falling at buoy 42057 (see attached for the trend). Winds are out of the ENE though which would indicate any LLC is SE of that location (16.834 N 81.501 W) (16°50'2" N 81°30'2" W). I believe thats correct

ftlaudbob
(Storm Chaser)
Fri Jun 25 2010 12:15 AM
Re: Wave in Central Caribbean Still Slowly Developing

NHC has put it in the red,a 60% chance of becoming a tropical cyclone within 48 hrs.

Hugh
(Senior Storm Chaser)
Fri Jun 25 2010 12:32 AM
Re: Wave in Central Caribbean Still Slowly Developing

Quote:

NHC has put it in the red,a 60% chance of becoming a tropical cyclone within 48 hrs.




They basically also said it would hit the Yucatan soon thereafter.


ftlaudbob
(Storm Chaser)
Fri Jun 25 2010 12:46 AM
Re: Wave in Central Caribbean Still Slowly Developing

I am from the school of thought that until a system becomes a TS,the models have no clue where it's going to go.

LoisCane
(Veteran Storm Chaser)
Fri Jun 25 2010 01:08 AM
Re: Wave in Central Caribbean Still Slowly Developing

within 48 hours is the main part here... does not mean in the next six hours...

Storm Hunter
(Veteran Storm Chaser)
Fri Jun 25 2010 02:20 AM
Re: Wave in Central Caribbean Still Slowly Developing

Initial Conditions numbers for the 00Z data/model runs had a 1006mb low (think thats the lowest with 93L so far) with a direction of 265 and movement of 7kts... so i think the system if slowly organizing... 93L has changed direction and speed for a short period i think... a turn back the NW should start again in the morning.

00z June 25th 2010
...INITIAL CONDITIONS...
LATCUR = 16.0N LONCUR = 81.6W DIRCUR = 265DEG SPDCUR = 7KT
LATM12 = 16.3N LONM12 = 80.3W DIRM12 = 263DEG SPDM12 = 8KT
LATM24 = 16.2N LONM24 = 78.2W
WNDCUR = 25KT RMAXWD = 75NM WNDM12 = 25KT
CENPRS = 1006MB OUTPRS = 1011MB OUTRAD = 180NM SDEPTH = M
RD34NE = 0NM RD34SE = 0NM RD34SW = 0NM RD34NW = 0NM

Latest sats still show IMO that the surface COC is still to the west of the deep convection... question is now will new convection fire? I'm not sure... i wanna say yes, but i still see shear in the general area or atleast to the NW of COC that may cause 93L from firing up in the next few hrs...


Ed DunhamAdministrator
(Former Meteorologist & CFHC Forum Moderator (Ed Passed Away on May 14, 2017))
Fri Jun 25 2010 04:11 AM
Re: Wave in Central Caribbean May Develop Tomorrow

Something worth noting:

SSEC 24hr Windshear Change (in knots)

Draw your own conclusions - you can probably guess what mine are.
ED


Storm Hunter
(Veteran Storm Chaser)
Fri Jun 25 2010 05:53 AM
Re: Wave in Central Caribbean May Develop Tomorrow

well the 00z GFDL has it out for my area again!! [Image] weird how the GFDL has seemed to be the right outlier for the last three days... while the GFS is still showing nuthin.

danielwAdministrator
(Moderator)
Fri Jun 25 2010 07:03 AM
Re: Wave in Central Caribbean May Develop Tomorrow

GFS and most of the models are having a hard time with 93L because it's not there. So to speak.
Double vortice bouncing around and fluctuating through the differents levels. Not to mention the sparse data points in the area.

The GFDL 96 hour forecast for Sundown Saturday night arrival at Panama City at 65 knots. Bare minimal Cat 1 Hurricane.

... This is a forecast position and intensity. Forecasts vary by several hundred miles at 96 hours out and will change several times over the next 5 days.


MikeCAdministrator
(Admin)
Fri Jun 25 2010 08:49 AM
Re: Wave in Central Caribbean May Develop Tomorrow

The wave is still a mess this morning, if it develops I guess tonight or tomorrow would be the best guess. It still may not, and the overall thinking of Yucatan with a relatively weak system with a lot of rain hasn't changed all week.

Hurricane Celia in the East Pacific hit category 5, and it's an impressive looking system out in the middle of nowhere.


berrywr
(Weather Analyst)
Fri Jun 25 2010 09:56 AM
Interaction between Tropical Wave and Hurricane Darby

In (Pacific) Hurricane Darby's discussion this morning is the following:

THE TRACK FORECAST IS HEAVILY DEPENDENT ON THE EVOLUTION OF THE AREA
OF LOW PRESSURE CURRENTLY OVER THE WESTERN CARIBBEAN. NEARLY ALL
OF THE GLOBAL MODELS SHOW DEVELOPMENT OF THIS SYSTEM BY THE TIME IT
GETS TO THE WESTERN GULF OF MEXICO IN A FEW DAYS...AND THESE MODELS
STALL DARBY BY DAY 2 FOLLOWED BY A NORTHEASTWARD ACCELERATION ON
DAYS 4 AND 5...MOST NOTABLY INDICATED BY THE ECMWF AND UKMET. THE
OFFICIAL FORECAST FOLLOWS THIS GENERAL PATTERN...BUT DOES NOT
INDICATE A POSITION AS FAR TO THE EAST ON DAY 5 AS THE MODEL
CONSENSUS TVCN...WHICH IS BEING INFLUENCED BY THE ECMWF AND UKMET
OUTLIERS. ON ANOTHER NOTE...THE GFS SHOWS ALMOST NO DEVELOPMENT OF
THE CARIBBEAN LOW AND THEREFORE KEEPS DARBY ON THE WESTERN SIDE OF
THE RATHER HELTER-SKELTER GUIDANCE ENVELOPE. ESSENTIALLY...THE
STRONGER THE CARIBBEAN LOW GETS WHILE IN THE GULF OF MEXICO...THE
FARTHER TO THE EAST DARBY COULD BE LOCATED BY THE END OF THE
FORECAST PERIOD.


berrywr
(Weather Analyst)
Fri Jun 25 2010 10:10 AM
Re: 93L and X92L

Please remember in the early stages of Tropical Storm development what generally happens and is not at all unusual is the formation of a broad area of low pressure and very small areas of low pressure within it. As thunderstorms fire these baby lows shift around and generally will line up with the most intensive areas of convection. At this stage it is quite common to see this huge mass of convection and we have to remember that it is only now that the shear in the upper environment has weakened enough for development; for most of the week there has been a band of westerlies from the Yucatan across Cuba and into the Atlantic bending ever so slightly east-southeast making it impossible for anything to get ginned up. We also have to remember in the Eastern Pacific, there's Hurricane Darby and in the 2am PT discussion this morning how this wave in the Caribbean develops will have a direct impact on the future course of Darby. I would encourage all to read that discussion courtesy of the NHC.

doug
(Weather Analyst)
Fri Jun 25 2010 12:00 PM
Re: 93L and X92L

What a mess....Still no definite focal point on the surface. The mid level spin that has been in the eastern third of the cloud mass continues and is now just SW of Jamaica. If a surface feature is going to emerge that will allow this to get into the Gulf it will have to develop near that spin today. There is a persistent anticyclone over the Yucatan that is impacting the system with Nw'ly shear.
Remember the odds are 40% for no development. The NHC doesn't do us any favors when it says 60% is a high probability. 40% is hardly a low probability.
The best terminiology is moderate, either way. That is where I am.


Hugh
(Senior Storm Chaser)
Fri Jun 25 2010 12:06 PM
Re: Wave in Central Caribbean May Develop Tomorrow

Quote:

The wave is still a mess this morning, if it develops I guess tonight or tomorrow would be the best guess. It still may not, and the overall thinking of Yucatan with a relatively weak system with a lot of rain hasn't changed all week.





It's a MUCH more impressive "mess" this morning. NHC has, as of the 8am TWO, upped it to 70% probability, and basically it's a matter of timing now. Early morning visible imagery isn't available yet on SSD to confirm the LLC is co-located with the ball of convection, but the infrared loop makes a pretty good case for calling this thing a depression at any time now, in my opinion. There's still a ton of disorganized convection away from the apparent LLC, but there's also a nice ball of convection right near it now. Given the NHC's new guidance this year on lead time of issuing tropical storm warnings, they would have already been issued if the thing had been named already. If recon DOESN'T find a closed LLC and at least a depression (possibly a storm), I'll be incredibly surprised... unless it falls apart before recon gets there.


ftlaudbob
(Storm Chaser)
Fri Jun 25 2010 12:08 PM
Re: 93L and X92L

NHC now has it at 70%.It looks like we will have our first named storm of the season sometime this weekend.The only thing that can impede development now is land.Models should get a better handle on it's path in the next couple of days.

MikeCAdministrator
(Admin)
Fri Jun 25 2010 12:30 PM
Re: 93L and X92L

The recon didn't get canceled today. They should be out at the system around 2PM today, if it gets called today, 5PM is probably the best shot. Depends on how well it holds together the rest of the morning.

If it does get called as a depression+ we'll start a new front page article for it.


weatherguy08
(Weather Hobbyist)
Fri Jun 25 2010 02:30 PM
Re: 93L and X92L

Advanced Scatterometer (ASCAT) imagery shows what looks to be a closed circulation off the Central American coast around 15 N 82 W. I would be willing to bet that we'll have a tropical depression by bedtime.

ASCAT: http://manati.orbit.nesdis.noaa.gov/ascat_images/cur_50km/zooms/WMBas20.png


Hugh
(Senior Storm Chaser)
Fri Jun 25 2010 02:39 PM
Re: 93L and X92L

Quote:

Advanced Scatterometer (ASCAT) imagery shows what looks to be a closed circulation off the Central American coast around 15 N 82 W. I would be willing to bet that we'll have a tropical depression by bedtime.





Dr. Master's new blog (WUndergrounds) begins rather accurately: "2010 Atlantic hurricane season appears imminent in the Western Caribbean, as the areal coverage and intensity of heavy thunderstorm activity associated with the tropical wave (Invest 93L) continue to increase."

I'd say we'll have a tropical depression as soon as recon arrives, if not before


scottsvb
(Weather Master)
Fri Jun 25 2010 02:57 PM
Re: 93L and X92L

Ugh...that other site has alot of kids making wacky forecasts and calling clouds hurricanes when they are not even TDs yet. I would stay here on flhurricane unless peeps want a good laugh.
Anyways, right now I have (what appears to be the LLC) around 17.3 N and 82.5W. T-Storms are not concentrated enough around the COC but its alot better than yesterday. I give recon and 50-50 chance. There is a LLC and its pretty well defined. But will they find 25kt winds or more even? Also there is only popcorn T-Storms near the estimate LLC as of 11am eastern time. The models don't show a big blow up of T-Storms over it.. but with the pressure of 1006mbs and a well defined circulation, we will see what our recon tells us.


Ed DunhamAdministrator
(Former Meteorologist & CFHC Forum Moderator (Ed Passed Away on May 14, 2017))
Fri Jun 25 2010 03:05 PM
Re: 93L and X92L

Pretty good analysis. I put it at 17.3N 83.0W at 25/15Z. Very weak circulation with all of the convection currently displaced east and south. If organization occurs, its going to take 36 to 48 hours and I'm not sure that it has that much time left. Maybe a TD in a day or so - maybe.
ED


Hugh
(Senior Storm Chaser)
Fri Jun 25 2010 03:24 PM
Re: 93L and X92L

Quote:

Pretty good analysis. I put it at 17.3N 83.0W at 25/15Z. Very weak circulation with all of the convection currently displaced east and south. If organization occurs, its going to take 36 to 48 hours and I'm not sure that it has that much time left. Maybe a TD in a day or so - maybe.
ED




The LLC I'm seeing isn't near 17N. It's around 16.0N, 82.5W, very near the convection.


cieldumort
(Moderator)
Fri Jun 25 2010 03:25 PM
Re: Wave in Western Caribbean Being Watched

At the risk of rambling, it still just appears that x92(93L) has a bit too much of an elongated/troffy nature to it, with perhaps now (once again) more than one competing fledgling surface/very near surface circulation. And so a big question in my mind remains as to whether the southern half doesn't just run into too much land before sufficient organization really takes hold today, leaving the northern half to perhaps reemerge as the best candidate for tropical cyclone development - either later today, or over this weekend/early next week, and before it, too, runs into land - most likely Belize and/or the Yucatan... if not also a zone of moderate shear that has set up some over the extreme northwestern Caribbean & southern GOM.

On the whole - Surface circulation: Appears to be elongated today. Convection: Much improved over the past 48 hours. Pressures: Somewhat lower than the past 48 hours. Upper-level winds: More conducive for still more development than over the past 48 hours, and continuing favorable for at least the next few days. Land interactions: Imminent.


danielwAdministrator
(Moderator)
Fri Jun 25 2010 03:29 PM
93L and 94L

93L has graduated to the next level, apparently. NHC has launched a RECON and they are airborne at this time.

94L is just NE of the Lesser Antilles. NHC bumped it to a Code Yellow. Models are forecasting a N ATL fish spinner for 94L.
https://my.sfwmd.gov/sfwmd/common/images/weather/plots/storm_94.gif

NOTE Left sidebar thumb for 94L is currently in the wrong location. It should update shortly.


doug
(Weather Analyst)
Fri Jun 25 2010 03:36 PM
Re: 93L

Hopefully the Recon will solve the mystery. We have at least three 'experienced" observers here that point to different locations. The NRL Monterrey site has its satellite focused on a twirl right on the Honduran coastline, near some decent convection. The right answer may be that several point exist and none dominate. Frankly, I don't see any evidence of a westerly flow of the low level clouds that would confirm a center. I see the banding effect near 83/17 and I watched for as long as the loop allowed, but still did not see the westerly/southwesterly component there necessary to make a call. We will see soon.

weathernet
(Storm Tracker)
Fri Jun 25 2010 03:54 PM
Re: 93L and X92L

Well, of course we are all playing follow the "morphing" center......., but just to put my 2 cents in, i'd even make a guess for the center to be back a little bit, more around 17.0 and 81.0. Of course I am overstating the obvious with regards to the center being potentially broad and yet ill defined, however no doubt undergoing some significant consolodation of the overall envelope. Speaking of the overall envelope, it is quite sizeable and looks to be a potential major rain/flood maker. Seems to me that the center is somewhat elongated NNE/SSW, but either way I really do not think that the Yucatan Penninsula will greatly impede development. Land here, is basically flat, and over the years there have been tropical systems which even started developing there, despite the interaction of this landmass.

Though I think the overall system may now be borderline depression ( by loose definition of large rotation and consolodating convection, I would doubt that recon immediately closes off a clean center, nor find winds greater than 25kt's. However, given the much improved overall appearance this morning, and with regards to proximity to coastline (i.e. flood warnings, etc. ), I would guess that ANY greater organization, especially if a good sized CDO blows up over an appearant LLC, the Hurricane Center might be quick to pull the trigger on calling it a depression.

My guess is that we'll see this system as our seasons first depression by daybreak tomorrow. Remember, despite current motion, any deepening system will be more apt to follow a mid level steering, rather than simply going with the surface flow, as it has done thus far. I am guessing that the Euro continues to take this system farther south and west, perhaps because it does not see ( or anticipate ) any deepening quite as quickly as perhaps some of the other models might.


berrywr
(Weather Analyst)
Fri Jun 25 2010 03:55 PM
Re: 93L

I see no distinct surface circulations within the broader circulation; however surface observations and streamlines do indicate there is a surface low of about 1005 or 1006 milibars right where NHC is looking. Shear aloft is between 15 and 20 knots from the north with very light winds to the NW; however there is moderate shear continuing west to east from Yucatan to Cuba and until that area moves or lightens there is no chance of this system surviving in that environment in the here and now. All data points towards the area of convection off the Honduran coast but the proximity to land might also be a factor; stay tune!

B_from_NC
(Verified CFHC User)
Fri Jun 25 2010 04:11 PM
Re: 93L

Looks to me that this center is ramping up quite well. Its right smack dab in the center of this loop. Get rid of the first few frames and speed it up about half way. The center peaks out for a bit. There is a bit of shear pushing the clouds off towards the south east from what it appears, but newer clouds are spawning closer to center.

1KM Loop


BG


berrywr
(Weather Analyst)
Fri Jun 25 2010 04:22 PM
Re: 93L and X92L

I've stared and stared at the satellite loops and I can't find a circulation other than the broader area which covers the entire area. I keep looking at the convective blob just to the east of Honduras and if someone put a gun to my head I'd say that's it though based on the broader pattern it is in the "donut hole" devoid of convection. I keep looking at the Shear analysis and it's almost there but not quite in regards to where it's next to calm to the NW and of course the broader center is perfect. It's damn if you and damn if you don't, but I agree with Ed, if it is that blob off Honduras; times about up before it moves over land. It's a mess down there and there's a lot of mess; who knows at this stage in development that depression could show up anywhere but where I simply think shear to its north has to weaken and rights on the line east; could go either way.

doug
(Weather Analyst)
Fri Jun 25 2010 04:28 PM
Re: 93L and X92L

Mystery solved? NRL Monterrey has pic of what seems to be a small llc at 16.2/83. This is also evident on the NOAA floater. A small ring of convection surrounds the point and on the picture it is almost an "eye" type feature, as it is clearly visible. Movement slightly N of W, at a pretty good clip.

Hugh
(Senior Storm Chaser)
Fri Jun 25 2010 05:56 PM
Re: 93L and X92L

The largely worthless 2pm TWO has been posted on the NHC's website. I say largely worthless because as far as 93L goes, it might as well say "Stay tuned for recon report". Actually, it does say that, but not in so few words. Probability has been upped to 80% during the next 48 hours, and the verbage has changed from "could form" to "likely will form at any time later today or Saturday".

94L is still shown with 20%.


MikeCAdministrator
(Admin)
Fri Jun 25 2010 05:56 PM
Re: 93L and X92L

Up to 80% chance for development, Recon nearly there,

WeatherNut
(Weather Master)
Fri Jun 25 2010 05:58 PM
Re: 93L

I saw the LLC in that loop as well. around 17n 83w. Also a big burst is occurring right over it. Recon is just about in that area too and there are some wind shifts showing up. I haven't seen the pressure readings yet though

scottsvb
(Weather Master)
Fri Jun 25 2010 06:08 PM
Re: 93L

Center is pretty close to 17.3N and 83.2W

Hugh
(Senior Storm Chaser)
Fri Jun 25 2010 06:14 PM
Re: 93L

They're flying through the LLC now, it appears. Top winds reported thusfar are 25kts.

WeatherNut
(Weather Master)
Fri Jun 25 2010 06:17 PM
Re: 93L

17.1N 83.1167W Is the last recon location and pressure is still falling and winds still from ESE. Have not seen a shift as of yet to more westerly component. What did we do before Google Earth ;-)?

I spoke too soon SW wind at 16.7667N 83.1167W


Hugh
(Senior Storm Chaser)
Fri Jun 25 2010 06:21 PM
Re: 93L

Quote:

17.1N 83.1167W Is the last recon location and pressure is still falling and winds still from ESE. Have not seen a shift as of yet to more westerly component. What did we do before Google Earth ;-)?

I spoke too soon SW wind at 16.7667N 83.1167W




I don't know what we did before Google Earth but the latest observations I'm seeing are calm winds from the south?

Ooops I spoke too soon too. Now I see that the plane turned due west, with light winds from the SE.


WeatherNut
(Weather Master)
Fri Jun 25 2010 06:41 PM
Re: 93L

I think we are seeing 2 competing centers still. One close to where the SW wind shift occurred and another on SW of there. Regardless, I've seen no reports of a true west wind, although there is still some territory to sample

Hugh
(Senior Storm Chaser)
Fri Jun 25 2010 06:45 PM
Re: 93L

Quote:

I think we are seeing 2 competing centers still. One close to where the SW wind shift occurred and another on SW of there. Regardless, I've seen no reports of a true west wind, although there is still some territory to sample




Yeah, you're right... the wind directions do not seem indicative of a close LLC, despite the satellite presentation. They've already sampled where the west wind should have been, too - I think!


weatherguy08
(Weather Hobbyist)
Fri Jun 25 2010 06:48 PM
Re: 93L

I think what we have here is an elongated trough that's not quite closed off yet, but give it 24 hours tops, assuming is doesn't run into land, and I think we'll have a tropical depression.

LoisCane
(Veteran Storm Chaser)
Fri Jun 25 2010 07:04 PM
Re: 93L

Unless recon can close it off I agree ... problem is elongated troughs have a messy way of moving ..sort of push me pull me and are hard to predict trackwise

Storm Hunter
(Veteran Storm Chaser)
Fri Jun 25 2010 07:59 PM
Attachment
Re: 93L

recon made there first pass.. and it appears there is two centers? there on the ene side now of 93L... the dominant one is the northern one it appears. data also shows tropical storm force winds at the surface well to the ene of the coc.

Unregistered User
(Unregistered)
Fri Jun 25 2010 08:19 PM
Re: 93L

These must be the two centers that some of the models have been picking up.
What a strange system(s).


WeatherNut
(Weather Master)
Fri Jun 25 2010 08:38 PM
Re: 93L

They are quite a bit SE of where the first wind shift occurred and are now reporting the lowest pressure so far (1005.1mb). It will be interesting to see what the pressure is close to the first shift...still no W winds though.

Update: They have found a pressure of 1004.3 and a WNW wind. I think they about to close off a low


Hugh
(Senior Storm Chaser)
Fri Jun 25 2010 08:52 PM
Re: 93L

Quote:

They are quite a bit SE of where the first wind shift occurred and are now reporting the lowest pressure so far (1005.1mb). It will be interesting to see what the pressure is close to the first shift...still no W winds though




Latest info:
Flt. Lvl. Wind (30s): From 294° at 5 knots (From the WNW at ~ 5.8 mph)

Not a very strong wind, but it is from the west,sort of.


Bloodstar
(Moderator)
Fri Jun 25 2010 09:03 PM
Re: 93L

So Far no consistent west winds. I don't think the low can be considered closed off at the surface. Mind you, I think it's only a matter of time before it does, and they may find more west winds in there before they leave. but for now, I'd consider it a very very sharp wave.

Edit -

And just as I say this, they find a group of west winds of Tropical Storm force. However those winds still appear to be away from the center, so it's not a terribly organized at this point. But I think it's good enough to call and probably call as a Tropical Storm off the bat.


WeatherNut
(Weather Master)
Fri Jun 25 2010 09:20 PM
Re: 93L

It still looks like the lowest pressure was at the wind shift. The west winds they are finding now the pressure is 2mb higher

Bloodstar
(Moderator)
Fri Jun 25 2010 09:37 PM
Re: 93L

06/25/2010 09:25PM 3,473 invest_RENUMBER_al932010_al012010.ren

Offical time and date for the first tropical system of the season. Now we'll see if it starts as a Depression or a Storm. The numbers support a storm, but wouldn't be shocked if they start with a depression, the low level center seemed to be a bit elongated and might need a bit more time to really get together.

Edit -

And according to the Navy site, it's a tropical depression 1005MB and 30Kt winds.

Now is probably a good time to remind everyone to play nice, to try to keep information insightful and relevant, and to avoid wild speculation. If you want to talk about hunches and all that fun stuff, FLHurricane has a Forecast Lounge where speculation is not only ok, but encouraged.

May this season be safe for everyone.


Hugh
(Senior Storm Chaser)
Fri Jun 25 2010 09:53 PM
Re: 93L

Quote:

06/25/2010 09:25PM 3,473 invest_RENUMBER_al932010_al012010.ren

Offical time and date for the first tropical system of the season. Now we'll see if it starts as a Depression or a Storm. The numbers support a storm, but wouldn't be shocked if they start with a depression, the low level center seemed to be a bit elongated and might need a bit more time to really get together.




NRL is indicating ONE... on their "all storms" page. The actual front page still shows 93L but has no image associated with it anymore. so the "ONE" could just be a placeholder, since there have been numerous reports of winds 35kts+ in the vicinity of "Alex-To-Be".

I read somewhere that the NHC has issued a special advisory, but it's not on the NHC website yet, at least, not for me (sometimes my ISP caches stuff though, so it doesn't show up right away unless I do some tricks which I haven't tried yet...).

Model runs at 8pm will be VERY interesting... and the overnight runs even moreso. So much for a nice boring weekend!

Edit: Special Advisory is out on TD One.


LoisCane
(Veteran Storm Chaser)
Fri Jun 25 2010 09:55 PM
Re: 93L

Thanks Hugh, explains why I was wondering what was going on with NRL... all I could get was a track but no upgrade noticeable. No emails...

They certainly stayed out there long enough...


WeatherNut
(Weather Master)
Fri Jun 25 2010 09:58 PM
Re: 93L

If you click on 01L it will take you to the Sat Loop...looks like they aren't naming it yet

Bloodstar
(Moderator)
Fri Jun 25 2010 09:58 PM
Re: 93L

You could be right, this may be a Tropical depression for all of 30 minutes, the latest Recon obs have pressure at 1002.9 and with the fairly large region of tropical storm force winds earlier, a good case for the system already being a tropical storm exists.

Either way, once we get the Vortex message, we should know more.


WeatherNut
(Weather Master)
Fri Jun 25 2010 10:02 PM
Re: 93L

Looks like they have closed off a center at 16 32'N and 83 36'W pressure down to 1002.9mb

JoshuaK
(Weather Guru)
Fri Jun 25 2010 10:03 PM
Re: 93L

NHC now has it up as Tropical Depression 1. I guess this thread will be closed and replaced with a new one for the first TD of the Atlantic Season.

Hugh
(Senior Storm Chaser)
Fri Jun 25 2010 10:05 PM
Re: 93L

Bloodstar: It would not be the first time a storm's intensity was upped that quickly. There was a hurricane in 2005 that was upgraded from a Cat 3 to a borderline Cat 4/5 in the matter of 30 minutes I think. The "Discussions" were funny - "what a difference an hour makes" one of them started off...

Track appears to take Alex into the west Gulf, toward Texas. This assumes that the trough DOESN'T shove it move toward the north/central Gulf, like some models are showing. It's too early to say for sure what it's going to do, of course, especially until after the next two model runs, and some consistency with them. Official forecast is a blend of the two divergent model groups. I hope the western model runs are more accurate, because even a weak Alex would be a nightmare with all the oil out there.



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