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News Talkback >> 2005 News Talkbacks

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GuppieGrouper
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Re: The loop [Re: Juanjo]
      #53872 - Tue Sep 06 2005 03:46 PM

I forgot that the radar is not a good tool for locating centers of circulation my oops.
Also wanted to point out that the TD 16 barring others beating it to it, the name will be Ophelia. For those who are not familiar with it, Ophelia was in love with Hamlet and he was stringing her along actually more interested in avenging his father's death than in Ophelia who was sort of picked for him due to the politics in the area at the time. Ophelia eventually descended into insanity and comitted suicide. Now hopefully this storm will disperse before dropping into insanity. We have had enough of that with Katrina.

--------------------
God commands. Laymen guess. Scientists record.


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tpratch
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Re: Tropical Storm Warnings Up Titusville to Jupiter Tropical Depression 16 Forms Off Florida Coast [Re: Beaumont, TX]
      #53874 - Tue Sep 06 2005 03:49 PM

When there is no confidence on any particular track, the storm is moving slowly, or the storm is forecast to do a loop, you tend to see the pronounced circles.

The "smaller" part of the cone is still there, but it's encompassed by the larger error cone and so it's "invisible".

Hope this helps.


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native
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Re: The loop [Re: Clark]
      #53875 - Tue Sep 06 2005 03:54 PM

It'll be interesting to see what recon comes back with. Does anyone know if these are truly the coordinates of the recon or is it possible that they just haven't updated the recon info (destination) on NOAA??

From NOAA:
Quote:

000
NOUS42 KNHC 051500
WEATHER RECONNAISSANCE FLIGHTS
CARCAH, TPC/NATIONAL HURRICANE CENTER, MIAMI, FL.
1100 AM EDT MON 05 SEPTEMBER 2005
SUBJECT: TROPICAL CYCLONE PLAN OF THE DAY (TCPOD)
VALID 06/1100Z TO 07/1100Z SEP 2005
TCPOD NUMBER.....05-100

I. ATLANTIC REQUIREMENTS
1. SUSPECT AREA (BAHAMAS)
FLIGHT ONE FLIGHT TWO
A. 06/1800Z A. 07/0600Z
B. NOAA2 01HHA INVEST B. NOAA3 02HHA CYCLONE
C. 06/1630Z C. 07/0430Z
D. 26.0N 79.5W D. 26.2N 80.0W
E. 06/1730Z TO 06/2200Z E. 07/0530Z TO 07/1000Z
F. SFC TO 10,000 FT F. SFC TO 10,000 FT


2. OUTLOOK FOR SUCCEEDING DAY: CONTINUE 12 HRLY FIXES IF SYSTEM
REMAINS OVER WATER AND IS A THREAT.





Just wondering why they'd send recon in approximately 34.5 mi. south of where they've estimated the COC to be? Any info would be appreciated.

Edited by native (Tue Sep 06 2005 03:57 PM)


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Steve H1
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Re: The loop [Re: GuppieGrouper]
      #53876 - Tue Sep 06 2005 03:56 PM

MikeC, I was actually surprised to see it so well organized this morning, and you're right, this could become a hurricane if it stays over water for as long as they project. The track is a bit problematic, but I don't see it getting too far north with the ridge in place. But time will tell. I would not be surprised to see a hurricane watch go up sometime tomorrow. . Interesting storm we have here. Cheers!!

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NewWatcher
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Re: The loop [Re: native]
      #53877 - Tue Sep 06 2005 03:57 PM

that was before it became 16, so at the time the approx. coords. were all
they had to call it..

it will still go out today same time but to the extimated center now.

--------------------
Pam in Volusia County

According to Colleen A ... "I AM A HURRICANE FREAK"
2007 Predictions 16/9/6


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Beaumont, TX
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Re: Tropical Storm Warnings Up Titusville to Jupiter Tropical Depression 16 Forms Off Florida Coast [Re: tpratch]
      #53878 - Tue Sep 06 2005 04:00 PM

So at this point there isn't much confidence in the track of this depression? I am of course, concerned about the Gulf
Coast and was wondering if the storm could track into the Gulf or if they are pretty sure it will stay off the coast of Florida.
I had asked before Katrina hit if there was any way that storm could track as far as Louisiana because I was VERY concerned about
that happening. And then that's what happened. So just a little concerned.


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Hootowl
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Re: The loop [Re: Steve H1]
      #53879 - Tue Sep 06 2005 04:09 PM

GOES floater 2 now on TD16.

http://www.ssd.noaa.gov/PS/TROP/DATA/RT/float2-ir4-loop.html


p.s. - what is all the stuff showing in the gulf? It was mentioned earlier that there may be something to watch in the gulf. (not trying to alarm anyone)


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Rich B
British Meteorologist


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Re: Tropical Storm Warnings Up Titusville to Jupiter Tropical Depression 16 Forms Off Florida Coast [Re: Beaumont, TX]
      #53880 - Tue Sep 06 2005 04:13 PM

I think its a fairly safe bet to say that short term motion of TD16 will be unsure and erratic, especially as it is still in the formative stages. Intensity will also be closely links to the track the cyclone takes. If it follows the NHC current forecast tracks, or possibly goes a little to the right of it, then we could quite posibly see this become a Hurricane. However, of course, it it goes to the left of the forecast track the likelihood of seeing it become a hurricane is much decreased. Interaction with land could also hinder development. However, with favourable atmospheric and oceanic conditions, i think we will see this TD upgraded to Ophelia later today or tonight, and see a continued strengthening trend right up until landfall somewhere over the northeastern coast of Florida.

--------------------
Rich B

SkyWarn UK


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The Force 2005
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Re: Tropical Storm Warnings Up Titusville to Jupiter Tropical Depression 16 Forms Off Florida Coast [Re: Rich B]
      #53881 - Tue Sep 06 2005 04:42 PM

As we all seen with Katrina when it hit Florida, I think the term "minimal" should be dropped. Remember, it is a CAT 1. As the GOV said, regardless the size, it is still a "Hurricane". So I think that the NHC should drop that term. A CAT 1 hurricane is just that. Regardless of the impact.

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native
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Re: Tropical Storm Warnings Up Titusville to Jupiter Tropical Depression 16 Forms Off Florida Coast [Re: Rich B]
      #53884 - Tue Sep 06 2005 04:47 PM

What am I missing? I just don't see how this is going to make it up to Daytona/St. Aug/Jacksonville area???

www.nhc.noaa.gov/tafb_latest/QUNA00latest.gif

Maybe I'm just paranoid.


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trinibaje
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Re: Tropical Storm Warnings Up Titusville to Jupiter Tropical Depression 16 Forms Off Florida Coast [Re: The Force 2005]
      #53885 - Tue Sep 06 2005 04:52 PM

Force i couldn't agree with you more about the minimal issue. NHC needs to drop that term. A Cat 1 hurricane could disrupt your life and cause death. A hurricane is a hurricane. Here in Southern Dade County, from all the reports before Katrina we were suppose to be on a clean side of the storm and nothing much was suppose to occur . However that was not the case. After Katrina, a hurricane anywhere my vicinity causes me concern.



--------------------
-----------MY 2005 PREDICTION--------
15/10/5


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Brad in Miami
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Re: Tropical Storm Warnings Up Titusville to Jupiter Tropical Depression 16 Forms Off Florida Coast [Re: trinibaje]
      #53888 - Tue Sep 06 2005 05:22 PM

The term "minimal" is not part of the official classification of hurricanes. However, it is useful to distinguish, for example, a 74 mph storm from a 95 mph storm.

And frankly, I think it's very useful in cases such as Katrina, particularly to clarify for people in South Florida that what we experienced with Katrina was a minimal Cat 1 hurricane; in fact, many if not most places only experienced strong tropical storm force winds, i.e., sustained winds below 74 mph, despite the fact that gusts were greater than that (which is consistent with strong TS conditions). For some reason, despite the yearly threat of tropical systems here, there continue to be problems of preparedness and expectation in South Florida. Part of this may be due to several news stations' broadcast of information/forecasts which do not accurately reflect those put out by the NHC, and part of it may be due to the fact that before Katrina, most of the Greater Miami area had not experienced category 1 conditions since at least the 60's. (Yes, parts of the county had experienced a Cat 5, and parts had experienced less than that during Andrew; but otherwise, we've only had brushes with hurricanes since the 60's, the strongest probably being strong TS conditions in parts of Miami with Irene in 1999. I realize the eye of Irene passed over Miami-Dade County, but Greater Miami did not have sustained 74+ mph winds during that storm.)

I think that by clarifying that what we experienced was a minimal Cat 1 hurricane (if even that; once again, many places did not experience sustained hurricane force winds), the lessons are: (1) even a TS or minimal hurricane can cause significant damage, power outages, etc. (which is entirely in line with what is predicted with such storms, and consistent with the NHC forecast in this case); and (2) a strong CAT 1 would produce even more damage, and we would have to be prepared for even more than what Katarina delivered if a 95 mph storm (still a Cat 1) were bearing down on us.

In the case of Katrina, we got exactly what the NHC predicted and exactly what is expected with such a storm. We were under a hurricane warning for approximately 20 hours before the storm hit; the NHC never backed down from statements that we could experience a Cat 1 hurricane in Miami, although the odds of a direct hit were higher in WPB and Broward. The damage in South Miami-Dade, although surprising to many, was exactly what is expected with a minimal Cat 1 and less than what is expected with a strong Cat 1. We have tons of tree damage, some damage to power lines and signs, but very minimal/sparse damage to structures; and many of use lost power for 3-7+ days. This is exactly what is predicted with a 75-80 mph storm.

Although I wish Katrina hadn't affected us, or anyone else, I hope it serves as a wake up call to South Florida as to what a minimal Cat 1 storm can do. Unfortunately, I continue to have doubts that many lessons were learned. Even now, only about 10 days later, I don't think there's much change. Perhaps not the best proof, but one sign: there's a depression very nearby that probably won't affect us, but "probably" isn't what preparation should be based on; the NHC's experimental wind product shows a 29% of tropical storm force winds in Miami, and the public should be aware of that fact, of the fact that there is a chance of having tropical storm conditions in Miami. Unfortunately, pretty much everybody I've spoken to today has just said, "That storm is going north of us," and some of this morning's newscasts did nothing to change that perception. This isn't much different than the general public perception of the threat from Irene, Katrina, and many storms which did miss us. (Of course this doesn't apply to everyone, as some people are well aware of NHC's forecasts, but it certainly is a problem.)

Every storm that comes near, these problems baffle me more. Tropical prediction is not an exact science, but most people seem to want "yes" or "no" answers regarding tropical systems, and will only listen to those answers. Either it is going to hit us or it isn't; there's no middle ground, no "maybe." But the science is only at the point of "maybes."

Please forgive my little rant, but I really don't know how the NHC or other organizations can get their messages out more effectively. They seem to say things very clearly, but sometimes I feel like people/newscasters/others aren't listening or reading. It must be very frustrating for forecasters.

Edited by Brad in Miami (Tue Sep 06 2005 05:28 PM)


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NewWatcher
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Re: Tropical Storm Warnings Up Titusville to Jupiter Tropical Depression 16 Forms Off Florida Coast [Re: Brad in Miami]
      #53891 - Tue Sep 06 2005 05:29 PM

Very nicely put Brad, I for one, am always on alert when something is within 300 miles or so from me and stay that way until I am certain it has passed (and isnt coming back, as some do). I am watching 16 carefully and appreciate all the input I get from here as well as the NHC and elsewhere.

--------------------
Pam in Volusia County

According to Colleen A ... "I AM A HURRICANE FREAK"
2007 Predictions 16/9/6


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HanKFranK
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ophelia.... [Re: Brad in Miami]
      #53895 - Tue Sep 06 2005 05:43 PM

alright. getting our o-storm probably on september 6th/7th. that's nuts, in case anyone is wondering.
forecast track makes some sense... more sense than the earlier progs across the state. deeper nate to the east may tug it, stronger beta advection due to a stronger system should keep it from whisking across florida. other things will dictate when/how it makes landfall. at some point the storm will be close enough to the coast that the asymmetric windfield should start to wobble it onshore.... probably up near the northern coast of florida. probably be around low-end hurricane strength at the time. the ridge to the north is forecast to break down, but there won't be a sharp shortwave to capture it, just a flat based trough sliding by to the north around the weekend. at this point shear may decouple the storm and a piece will jet westward, or it may just drift east and offshore. heights are supposed to rise in the wake, so ophelia may end up doing a loop and double landfall. due to the nature of the ridge breakdown and resurgence on the models, i'd expect that more than a sharp recurvature. whether it can regenerate offshore would be another issue altogether.. probably just stay steady-state. regardless i'm thinking this storm will be around all week, all weekend, into next week. probably tons or rain between say vero and brunswick ga.
nate may get a little stronger than progged... and the forecast track is very close to bermuda. they may take their hardest lick since fabian in 2003. doesn't look like nate will bother anyone else.
maria is weakening and on the way out... 48-72 hrs or so it should be losing tropical characteristics.
two waves at low latitudes worth mention.. one nearing 35w, the other is old 92L near 62w. the 35w wave has a large envelope and broad surface low, with scattered convection. it's already feeling southerly shear ahead of the large trough near 50w. this trough should be splitting at some point... so there's a chance enough of a feature will make it through to develop something, but looking improbable at this point. old 92L still has a broad turning near 16/63, but has only spotty convection and is in a dry environment.. some of its energy is propagating northward in maria/nate's direction. whatever is left in the western caribbean will be worth watching late in the week, but not a lot should make it.
the gulf is the last place to eyeball. the upper trough/low over the central gulf is diving sw and should induce some ridging aloft over the surface trough it has already generated from the BOC up to the central part. some of the globals are showing a weak surface feature in this area... dependent on how concentrated convection remains, it may be trying to stew up as it migrates generally towards texas by the end of the week.
three active systems. not a lot of space to fit others, so the other mentions are low-end prospects.
HF 1743z06september


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Hootowl
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Re: Tropical Storm Warnings Up Titusville to Jupiter Tropical Depression 16 Forms Off Florida Coast [Re: NewWatcher]
      #53896 - Tue Sep 06 2005 05:44 PM

I'll second that - good post.

I continues to amaze me too - that people do not take depressions/TS/Hurricanes serious. I get laughed at or told "it's on the other side of the state". They don't believe that anything can affect them unless it's two miles from their house.

Ah well... enough of my rant too.

Everyone here does a fine job and I hope they realize how much they are appreciated.

Keep watching everyone - may be a long week ahead.

Hoot


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Ron Basso
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Re: TD16 [Re: Hootowl]
      #53899 - Tue Sep 06 2005 06:56 PM

There looks to be a broad, perhaps elongated center reforming to the N-NW of the 11 AM NHC's position according to long range radar out of Melbourne - I'd estimate the new center about 50 miles east of Ft Pierce. It will be interesting to know what recon finds.

http://www.srh.noaa.gov/radar/loop/DS.p20-r/si.kmlb.shtml

--------------------
RJB


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Anton Ross
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WX in Charleston [Re: Ron Basso]
      #53900 - Tue Sep 06 2005 07:09 PM

Looks like we're now getting a bit of the tail of soon-to-be Ophelia.

Here in Charleston we've had some torrential downpours this morning and afternoon, with winds gusting to 20-25 mph out of the East.

On the plus side, the temp outside is AWESOME at only 75 degrees F. It is normally brutally hot here this time of year.

I see a lot of rain/T-storms sitting off the coast making their way in towards us. Looks like this week will be a washout for any outdoor activities.

The subject of Cat 1 storms is interesting. Last year when we had TS Gaston and Hermine cruise through, most people didn't really expect much, and yet we had lots of flooding and trees down. My out-laws (wife's parents) live on the coast in Murrells Inlet (South of Myrtle Beach), and they had some really tall pines come down and destroy fencing and other structures on their property. One of the felled pines was pretty big. I am hopeful that after people will finally wake up and realize that even Tropical Storms can cause serious damage with wind alone...let alone the flooding rains we experienced. We had to move our vehicles up on to our front lawn since that was the highest ground we had at home. Had to tear down part of our wrought iron fence to do it, but that was cheaper than dealing with underwater Subarus.

Like everyone, I am heartbroken about NoLa. Hopefully this will serve as a wake-up call for the feds (and state) to start being proactive about storm damage prevention. It seems to me that the NHC has done a tremendous job of letting everyone know what sort of damage might be coming their way. People really need to pay attention to them when they speak.

Just my 2 cents from the (s)Lowcountry.

/Anton

--------------------
"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary.
-Albert Einstein


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native
Weather Guru


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Re: TD16 [Re: Ron Basso]
      #53901 - Tue Sep 06 2005 07:14 PM

Ron - Recon is back..reported back at approx.. 1:45pm EDT. Click on Recon info under heading Storm Data here on the far left.

What I thought curious was the winds were only 23mph & pressure was up to 1010mb. Looks like the GFDL dissipating this may very well be our model winner again! (Let's hope )

But, it may be a bit premature to breathe a sigh of relief just yet. 5pm update should prove to be a little more telling.


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Clark
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Re: TD16 [Re: native]
      #53904 - Tue Sep 06 2005 07:48 PM

It's premature to say that the depression is weaker than thought. They came in on the west side of the storm and have not sampled the stronger eastern side of the storm. Good bet there's something a bit stronger there.

--------------------
Current Tropical Model Output Plots
(or view them on the main page for any active Atlantic storms!)


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Ron Basso
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Re: TD16 [Re: native]
      #53905 - Tue Sep 06 2005 07:50 PM

Gotta say the GFDL model has been pretty darn consistent in taking a weak system across central Fl to the GOM. The lastest 12Z run matches the track of the system the last two days (past 6 or 7 runs now).

http://moe.met.fsu.edu/cgi-bin/gfdltc2.c...;hour=Animation

--------------------
RJB


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