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News Talkback >> 2005 News Talkbacks

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Domino
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Re: Hurricane Vince forms in the Far Eastern Atlantic [Re: MikeC]
      #58098 - Mon Oct 10 2005 12:07 PM

Okay so I leave Manila and go to Europe...(Holland to be exact) and you guys send a hurricane for me?!? Europe is the last place I ever imagined to see a hurricane headed. Although it wouldn't really effect the countries I get TV from except as rain (France, Holland, Germany) I have yet to see any mention of this storm on local tv.

*runs for antarctica*


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Ed DunhamAdministrator
Former Meteorologist & CFHC Forum Moderator (Ed Passed Away on May 14, 2017)


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Re: Hurricane Vince forms in the Far Eastern Atlantic [Re: Domino]
      #58099 - Mon Oct 10 2005 02:46 PM

Be careful about over-reacting on this system. Vince was an unusual hurricane, he is now a tropical storm, and in less than 24 hours I'm pretty sure that the increasing wind shear will reduce this system to a tropical depression. The system is so small that he'll probably have his remnants absorbed by a front long before any potential landfall can occur.

Thanks to all for the excellent feedback to Josef.
ED


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dave foster
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Re: vince/22L/94L [Re: Steve H1]
      #58100 - Mon Oct 10 2005 03:04 PM

Quote:

Wish we could get some drier air into Florida this week, but I don't see that happening anytime soon. Cheers!!




Sorry, don't quite understand that statement. Florida has been covered by dry air for the last few days.

http://www.ssd.noaa.gov/PS/TROP/DATA/RT/gmex-wv-loop.html

--------------------
Dave Foster
http://www.ascn92.dsl.pipex.com


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weatherwatcher999
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Re: Hurricane Vince forms in the Far Eastern Atlantic [Re: Ed Dunham]
      #58102 - Mon Oct 10 2005 03:11 PM

Yeah, they just released the 11 AM advisory, and it's barely a TS now... most likely the 5pm advisory will be the last.

Whoa, check out http://www.ssd.noaa.gov/PS/TROP/DATA/RT/watl-vis-loop.html.

Look at the 14:15 UTC image, and around 15N, 77W, it looks like there's the number 2 imbedded into the tropical wave there-don't zoom though.

It adds to this "weird weather period", lol.


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josef
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Re: Hurricane Vince forms in the Far Eastern Atlantic [Re: weatherwatcher999]
      #58103 - Mon Oct 10 2005 03:36 PM

Well, in this moment i can tell Vince is gone, and Portugal donĀ“t have problems with him.
Tanks for everybody and I when you go travel, visit Portugal, and came to Oporto city. We heve the first wine in the world and a fantastic old city. If you like soccer, we have F.C.Porto.
Thanks.


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Steve H1
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Re: vince/22L/94L [Re: dave foster]
      #58104 - Mon Oct 10 2005 03:57 PM

Maybe at the upper and mid levels, but here at the surface, believe me, its humid. Got soaked with sweat running from one building to another at work.

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emackl
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Re: vince/22L/94L [Re: Steve H1]
      #58107 - Mon Oct 10 2005 09:05 PM

I noticed Navy has 97L up. Is that new or have I been out of the loop. The models are shooting it north. Could that be what the globals are picking up on?

Jackie


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josef
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Re: vince/22L/94L [Re: emackl]
      #58108 - Mon Oct 10 2005 09:16 PM

Hello again,
Of this moment in Porto rain much and the meteo said the wins go to 100 kh tomorrow, but the the vince is desapear before toutch land. You agree ?

Edited by josef (Mon Oct 10 2005 09:18 PM)


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Bloodstar
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Re: vince/22/94L ... 97L? [Re: emackl]
      #58109 - Mon Oct 10 2005 09:43 PM

Got a link to 97?

I see 22L is still poking out convection, stubborn sucker despite the shear over it. the LLC is still fairly well defined, and still pushing out winds of 25 to 30Kts

Vince, we hardly knew ya.

94 is still churning along doing not much of anything.

maybe 97L is the ULL that's south of 22...?

-Mark

--------------------
M. S. Earth and Atmospheric Sciences, Georgia Tech - May 2020
Brookhaven National Laboratory
U. Arizona PhD Student


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OrlandoDan
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Re: vince/22L/94L [Re: dave foster]
      #58110 - Mon Oct 10 2005 10:33 PM

It is quite humid in Florida. I was golfing at my local golf course yesterday north of Orlando. I forgot to set the parking break and went to the on-course restrooms. When I came out, my cart had rolled into some heavy quagmire. While waiting for some course employed boys to pull me out, I stood there, on the cart path, in a heavily foliaged low lying area. The sweat was just pouring off of me and I was in the shade the whole time. The course was just soaked. The fairways had deep tire tracks and I almost got stuck about three times. It is overcast right now with a temperature of 83.1 F and humidity of 79%.

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dave foster
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Re: vince/22L/94L [Re: OrlandoDan]
      #58111 - Mon Oct 10 2005 10:43 PM

Well, I wouldn't have believed it from the look of that map. Just goes to prove how poor my weather map reading skills are at the moment. I'm hoping that the more I look at them the better I'll get at reading them, but it looks like that's going to be next season at the rate I'm going...

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Dave Foster
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emackl
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Re: vince/22/94L ... 97L? [Re: Bloodstar]
      #58112 - Mon Oct 10 2005 11:21 PM

Here ya go!

http://tcweb.fnmoc.navy.mil/tc-bin/tc_home.cgi


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Hugh
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Re: vince/22/94L ... 97L? [Re: emackl]
      #58114 - Tue Oct 11 2005 02:53 AM

Well... it's official: He** has frozen over.
A tropical storm - albeit a very small one, the first-ever "V"-named storm in the Atlantic Basin... will soon make landfall - as a tropical storm - in Portugal. Can this season get any stranger?

I don't see anything else threatening right now, thankfully. STD 22 still looks like it should be warranting advisories again if Vince is - 22 actually looked more impressive than Vince earlier today, but maybe it's just my eyesight. The only other invest at NRL is 94L, and it looks like a mess, but a disorganized mess. What is this 97L I read someone talk about?

--------------------
Hugh

Eloise (1975) - Elena and several other near misses (1985) - Erin & Opal (1995) - Ivan (2004)


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Clark
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The long, strange ride continues [Re: MikeC]
      #58115 - Tue Oct 11 2005 03:19 AM

Well, as Stacy Stewart said in the 11p Vince discussion, the long, strange ride continues. Vince remains as a classified tropical cyclone with winds at 45mph based upon ship observations and enhanced convection on the east side of the storm. Located at 9.5W, it is the first system to be classified as a tropical cyclone in this basin to the east of 10W (not including the unclassified storm in the S. Atlantic near Congo in 1991). It is also the first storm to be making landfall in Portgual. If it maintains a more easterly heading in the short-term, it may even make it to the Mediterranean Sea; however, with the strong front/trough approaching from the west, it's more likely to end up just inland across Spain over the coming day.

Vince is yet another reminder that tropical cyclones do not always form from tropical waves over >26C waters. It's not something that redefines the tropical cyclone paradigm; in fact, it's formation is similar to both of those South Atlantic tropical cyclones (1991 and 2004). All three storms can be explained using our theories for tropical cyclone development -- the idea of the efficiency of a Carnot cycle as depicted by a hurricane is based upon sea surface temperatures and temperatures at the outflow layer/tropopause. This efficiency goes into the maximum potential intensity calculation (http://www.wxmaps.org/pix/hurpot.html) which, believe it or not, states that a significant tropical cyclone could form and maintain itself across that region toward Portgual/Morocco. While it is rare to see a storm form in such cold SSTs (~25C or less throughout), it is not impossible...nor is it impossible for such a system to acquire at least a weak low-level warm core.

Vince formed from an upper-level area of low pressure that slid to the southeast out of the mid-latitude pattern and became cut-off. This upper-level low induced (action at a distance) a surface circulation just west of the Madeira Islands; through time, the upper-level low weakened, leaving behind the surface circulation in a favorable upper-level environment for development. The initially cold-core surface low acquired a warm-core structure -- the microwave imager data from UWisconsin shows this pretty well and the operational model data show this to a lesser degree -- through the so-called WISHE tropical cyclone development mechanism.

This WISHE -- wind-induced surface heat exchange -- mechanism states that as you get winds impacting the ocean's surface, heat and moisture are extracted from the upper ocean. The convection associated with the system and the associated rising motion serve to transport this energy upward (note that it is not the convection itself that drives the heating within the storm!) where the accumulation of energy at upper levels maintains the storm, builds the warm core, and, through meteorological principles, helps to intensify the system. We saw the system acquire a warm-core, later develop an eye, and then weaken -- all like we see with tropical cyclones! The only difference is the unique location and underlying circumstances.

Such events are so rare, leading them to be nearly impossible to predict. While we have records of a few, there are likely hundreds more we've missed because we couldn't or were not looking for such systems. Whenever the model guidance suggests something might cut-off in a region marginally favorable -- even if it is out of our normal paradigms for tropical cyclone development -- it might just be worth keeping an eye on, just in case the unexpected does happen. At the very least, it can help you better understand how normal mid-latitude cyclones evolve. I should note that these systems are the types of systems Jack Beven at the NHC absolutely loves...he must've been pinching himself when this one popped up (and I mean that in a good way)!

Nevertheless, it's always a good idea to think outside the box -- but it's also reassuring to know that our tropical cyclone development theories explain such a development & transition to a warm-core system quite well. Otherwise, we'd have to think about redeveloping our TC development theories!

Enjoy Vince while it lasts -- you may not see another storm quite like it for a long time to come. 10W in the Atlantic basin has so little ocean -- and even less that is favorable for development even under the outside-the-box principle (in terms of MPI) -- that it's very tough to see something like this even happen.

In other parts of the basin much, much closer to home, ex-STD 22 is about to get caught up in the convergence zone/trough hanging out just off of the US east coast and is not likely to redevelop. I'm watching that area very near Puerto Rico, however, on the periphery of that big upper low. There's some model guidance supporting something getting going there and as it moves into a more favorable position with respect to the upper low, we could see something spin up later this week. I'd put it at 50/50 we finish the Atlantic list sometime this week...and overall better than 50/50 that we see Alpha sometime this season. This is the wacky season, where storms don't necessarily have the typical tropical origins, but with very few exceptions -- Lee is the one I can think of -- everything has been a legit tropical cyclone. Accumulated TC energy is going to be skewed with Rita, Katrina, Emily, and Dennis, but the total number of TC days is going to be relatively low for what one might expect for 20+ storms.

More later...having some trouble with the site lately, so updates on my end might be slow in coming.


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HanKFranK
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weirded out yet? [Re: Clark]
      #58116 - Tue Oct 11 2005 04:47 AM

we get one of these transition systems in most years. maybe a third of those are in the eastern atlantic at high latitude. vince isn't the first ET-origin system to get started out there, but they're usually the type of cutoffs that meander back to the west. this one just went east... all the way to the gulf of cadiz. so now we have the first landfall of record in the european continent. if it were on a slightly more eastward trajectory it might have threaded the strait of gibraltar and gone on into the mediterranean.. but thankfully the weirdness will stop perpetuating this morning as the storm becomes nontropical over southwestern spain.
anywho, our old buddy subtropical depression 22 is still trudging nw a beam of hatteras right now. it's been firing an odd thunderstorm or two, not losing definition to its low-level remnant. crossing the gulf stream this morning and according to forecaster stewart about to briefly entry a low-shear environment.. the dead zone between the northerly flow of the upper low and the southerly flow behind the surface trough. very low probability of regeneration, but it should add moisture and energy to the onshore flow and tropical conveyor in the northeast that has over the last few days caused a lot of rain. there's been some decent flooding in the northeast since the weekend... the mess that sheared off of tammy and that yucatan invest that rode up the front really pushed a lot of rain up there.
models are backing off on the gale system they've been showing arcing around the back side of that upper low, passing bermuda.. but now stalling well offshore the northeast and then backing away to the east. looks feasible, but we still don't have more than a disturbance near the ne caribbean for now. clark has already highlighted the potential with this one.
maybe a little more disturbed weather lingering in the western or central caribbean after that, but no real model support for it.. and the longer range modeling isn't showing much in the long range. unless the pattern amplifies again this may be our last batch of activity in the basin for a while, as MJO is forecasted inhibitive for the rest of the month. it hasn't worked that well this year, but perhaps things will ease off as the added strike against of late october comes into play.
things had better quit, or we'll be revisiting our inner fred flintstone.. then speaking greek. tpratch, can you do that?
HF 0447z11october


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Storm Hunter
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Re: weirded out yet? [Re: HanKFranK]
      #58117 - Tue Oct 11 2005 05:48 AM

for those interested.....and while we have some down time in the tropics.... Here is the latest on the first unmanned flight into Hurricane Ophelia...
(pretty interesting data images)
http://www.aerosonde.com/drawarticle/127
**note too that this project is over....They are heading to Guam for another project**** (areosonde)

Also, this past friday. Max and Gen. Johnson (NWS dir) went before the House Science Committe for the Hurricane Forecasting.... it's playing on C-Span...... some intersting information come out of the hearing..... including the Gulf Coast strikes....and what went wrong and right.... and max gave some good information and said he thinks he did all he thought was possible from his point of view..... There was one Rep. (Gordon) that got down and dirty and he showed an emailed leaked within the last month about a new memo in the NWS right now, post the stroms... NO ONE can give an interview to media/others, until it's cleared through to the top command... (headquaters NOAA)... not sure why yet...it's interesting.....

back to max... it is on file that Max even made personal phone calls (late at night) two nights before landfall of Katrina to the Govs. of LA, MS, FL, and the New Orleans Mayor, that "this is going to be bad".... he later said he wanted to make sure that when he went to sleep, he believed he did everything he thought was possible to get the message out.... .

Also i think i heard that there may be a NEW plane in the budget for the AOML next year... for Hurricane Recon..... Although its noted there is a BILLION dollar difference between the House and Senate for the NOAA budget next year... from what i have read.... but sounds like all the members are now for any help/money NOAA needs, gets there support......

**also noted some of images max showed off... the ones he sayes he uses... had alot of Ramdis sat shots **

Anyway... this may not belong to this area...thought it would be nice to share.... this may be sent to the yard or deleted...

--------------------
www.Stormhunter7.com ***see my flight into Hurricane Ike ***
Wx Data: KFLPANAM23 / CW8771
2012== 23/10/9/5 sys/strms/hurr/majh



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Rich B
British Meteorologist


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Its official - Europes first on record [Re: Storm Hunter]
      #58118 - Tue Oct 11 2005 08:47 AM

Well a day for the history books! This morning saw Tropical Depression Vince make landfall on mainland Europe just to the southwest of Huelva, Spain, as a Tropical Cyclone. This has never been recorded before! The depression is now losing tropical characteristics, but it made it - and many of us didnt think we would see this happen!

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Rich B

SkyWarn UK


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SMOKE
Weather Watcher


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Re: Its official - Europes first on record [Re: Rich B]
      #58119 - Tue Oct 11 2005 10:51 AM

Historic and wierd season.

--------------------




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tpratch
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Speaking Greek [Re: HanKFranK]
      #58120 - Tue Oct 11 2005 10:56 AM

Sadly, I don't speak the tongue of my ancestors. However, I know the odd phrase here and there.

That being said, I went on record back in the Katrina days stating I believe we'll see 3 storms with Greek names. It still doesn't feel right (4 more named to go), but I'm sticking to my guns (if only I'd made that prediction in May - I might have more confidence).

At any rate, I'd have to say my favorite part of this season is only having to go through outer bands of one storm. I know others have been less fortunate, but after Brevard went through the twins last year (and Charley hitting the north part of the county), I'm pleased.

Here's to 4 more storms - all of which only bother the fish.

Clark - great analysis and explanation. When the site acts up and doesn't load the CSS or javascript, it can make posting more difficult to those not used to UBB or HTML. If you want, you can always send posts to me for formatting so that when those functions load properly again, the post will be what you're expecting.

Cheers,
--Tom


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Beach
Weather Guru


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And they say... [Re: Rich B]
      #58121 - Tue Oct 11 2005 11:27 AM

That our Planet is not going through a clemental change.
This year has been incredible to watch. Living here in Cocoa Beach I'm ready for some "fall like" weather.
I'm affraid that our "New Patterns" will keep pushing our cool relief back further and further.


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