StormHound
Weather Guru
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Loc: Orlando, FL
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I guess what you mean is that the WORST case scenario would have been the "soup bowl" filling up much faster, which would have wiped out many of the survivors who have been rescued from roofs, attics, etc.
Certainly not what I mean. Many people will be saved since the flooding will happen over a couple of days instead of a few hours. I was a bit more flip than I meant to be.
They wouldn't be able to get the cruise ship into the city. If they had a spare cruise ship for housing, that might accomodate a couple of thousand people. Probably somewhat more comfortably than a tent city.
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Storm Hound
Computer Geek
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Colleen A.
Moderator
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Loc: Florida
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I don't remember who posted about Danny, but I can tell you this: he works the night shift dispatching ambulances, so he may be on duty and not be able to respond.
I'm not sure exactly what city this is happening in (Kennis, LA?) but they are bringing in school buses to take refugees "points north".
As for the Superdome, now I understand why they took away the combs with the pointy ends. If they are not letting anybody else in at this point, I think that the only gunshots you will hear will come from the National Guard. I have heard reports of looters breaking into sporting goods stores and taking as much ammunition as they could. That's a scary thought.
Aaron Brown made a comment about why it took so long to get more National Guard troops in...I think that it may have something to do with N.O. imposing martial law today. I don't think, as he does, that it was a case of poor planning.
Anyway...I'm off to bed...full of thanks that I have one to sleep in.
Nite all.
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You know you're a hurricane freak when you wake up in the morning and hit "REFRESH" on CFHC instead of the Snooze Button.
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Chesapeake Phil
Verified CFHC User
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Loc: Betterton, MD
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Quote:
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In terms of flooding, if N.O. does, indeed, flood until it is level with Lake P., then it IS the worst case scenario. That's as far as it can flood
Had the city flooded during a storm the level would have been significantly higher because you'd have to add the storm surge to the normal lake level.
I stand corrected and apologize for overlooking that. There's a reason why I have only made six (now seven) posts in a year of being registered.
I guess I was thinking of the water that would have been around now, not what would have been there during the storm, which would have exacted a much higher death toll and caused even more (hard to believe it's possible) damage. With the surge, that would have been much, much worse, yes.
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Margie
Senior Storm Chaser
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Posts: 1191
Loc: Twin Cities
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Hi everyone thanks so much for your posts. That really means a lot to me.
I had to call some relatives and then I did talk with Phil on the phone a bit.
I was starting to get a little crazy this evening. I had exhausted all the resources I could online and the prospect of not doing anything was too much, so I called my brother's house in TX and talked to my SIL. We're talking on the phone and she shrieks that there is a call waiting and it is my SIL in Pascagoula. So they talked to her and my brother for just a couple minutes before the connection went dead.
I heard this second-hand from my brother in TX: they had been working around the clock nonstop for three days (since Sunday). They had just been given a couple hours off to get some sleep. I think that says a lot about how stretched the resources are at attempting to deal with this disaster, and how bad the disaster is. So they tried the phones again and now they were working. So the first call my SIL made was to my brother in TX.
My brother has spent the last couple days continuing search and rescue. It is very grim there. Read between the lines here. I really don't want to post any more than that.
That's all we're going to know for now. I don't care if I don't talk to him right away. All I needed to hear was that he was ok. I imagine he'll have some story to tell me when he finally gets a chance to slow down, but honestly I don't think that will be for at least a month.
In many cases I think that they are going to have to pull out of some of these areas for the short term, until sewer, electric, running water, etc. can be put back tog. I actually wonder if Pascagoula will become a ghost town. It existed really because of the shipyard, which will probably be too expensive to rebuild. So it will evolve into something else. I don't think the coast can really come back from something like this.
Again I want to say that I don't think I could have gotten through these last couple days without you guys.
We knew before many people did what was happening, and after hit (you know even typing the name makes me feel so bitter), we knew as well. None of my friends understood. So I am sorry to have kind of spilled my guts out here, and thank you all for being so supportive!
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Katrina's Surge: http://www.wunderground.com/hurricane/Katrinas_surge_contents.asp
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WiscoWx
Registered User
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Loc: Madison, WI
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Maybe Clark or one of the other mets could address this....
On Morning Edition today, there was a piece on global warming and hurricanes where the experts appearing stated that the variations due to the multi-decadal signal were more significant than global warming. They also stated that large scale hurricane environment depends on contrast between ocean temps and upper atmosphere temps and that it wasn't clear that global warming affected the temperature contrast. They did hypothesize that if global warming triggered enough polar ice cap melt to shut down the Gulf Stream that tropical ocean temps would increase enough to have an impact on hurricanes, but that was a possible future condition, not a present condition. The gist, as I understood it, was that there is not evidence to attribute the heightened activity to global warming. And I say this as someone who believes that global warming is a genuine problem and would like to see restrictions on carbon emissions.
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LI Phil
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Loc: Long Island (40.7N 73.6W)
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i believe msnbc is about to re-run the amazing helicopter footage i was watching earlier...all ya'll may want to check it out
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2005 Forecast: 14/7/4
BUCKLE UP!
"If your topic ain't tropic, your post will be toast"
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BTfromAZ
Weather Hobbyist
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Posts: 75
Loc: San Francisco/Green Valley, AZ
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As I posted earlier, during the 1989 earthquake in San Francisco, the Navy docked an assault ship like the Bataan at a city pier and housed a large number of people on the ship. Something similar could be done and possibly will be. Cruise ships could, of course, also be used but I'm not sure the companies would be thrilled nor can I blame them.
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StormHound
Weather Guru
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Posts: 187
Loc: Orlando, FL
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Quote:
As I posted earlier, during the 1989 earthquake in San Francisco, the Navy docked an assault ship like the Bataan at a city pier and housed a large number of people on the ship. Something similar could be done and possibly will be. Cruise ships could, of course, also be used but I'm not sure the companies would be thrilled nor can I blame them.
There are probably some older cruise ships available. There have been a lot of new ones built in recent years, they are replacing older ones. From time to time someone buys these and tries to put together a cheap cruise line. I'd expect there are at least a couple for sale. I'm sure they could be leased or bought by the government.
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Storm Hound
Computer Geek
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Disaster Master
Weather Hobbyist
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Loc: San Antonio G0! Spurs Go!
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I cant pull another all nighter tonight. Im off to bed folks. Will be on in the morning.
R.P.
National Flood Insurance Program  man am i tired.
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BTfromAZ
Weather Hobbyist
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Posts: 75
Loc: San Francisco/Green Valley, AZ
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Quote:
They wouldn't be able to get the cruise ship into the city. .
Sure they would. "Into the city" in the sense that the Mississippi is navigable by large ships at New Orleans. I've seen them pass by and many years back one slammed into a waterfront hotel when it lost steerage. They could dock one alongside a pier, at least it's possible.
unfortunately, most of what was once new orleans is now prolly navigable by boat
Edited by LI Phil (Wed Aug 31 2005 04:11 AM)
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WiscoWx
Registered User
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Loc: Madison, WI
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First off, Margie, what wonderful news!!! So glad to hear that your brother is OK.
Regarding the Gulf coast, I know it seems daunting now, but there are many attractive reasons to build there and an awesome storm like is a rare event. Things may not be the same, but rebuilding will surely happen. Perhaps with full recognition of nature's power and a greater interesting in living lightly on the land, but people (on average) are tenacious and optimistic so I am sure that these communities will not lie vacant and abandoned.
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Disaster Master
Weather Hobbyist
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Loc: San Antonio G0! Spurs Go!
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MOst old cruise liners are now gambling ship spread out all over the US coast. Investors are waiting in line for them when they go out of the cruise bizz.
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wiley
Verified CFHC User
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One of the ships being sent, the Iwo Jima, also has fresh water distilling capability of 200,000 gallons a day. That may become important pretty quickly.
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Margie
Senior Storm Chaser
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Loc: Twin Cities
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"it would be logisticaly impossible to move 30,000 people by boat from the supedome"
I heard on the news this evening some mention of utilizing Cruise Ships. I don't know if they were discussing moving large amounts of people to a different area or using them for temporary housing.
i don't know if moving cruise ships in there is a good idea...they'd prolly just get looted
Actually I love the mental image of these poor people being able to get on board what is essentially a tacky-glittery luxury hotel as a means of escape. Then I saw Phil's comment and I liked that image even better.
However, you'd first need Scotty to beam those large ships down there.
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Katrina's Surge: http://www.wunderground.com/hurricane/Katrinas_surge_contents.asp
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BTfromAZ
Weather Hobbyist
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Posts: 75
Loc: San Francisco/Green Valley, AZ
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I received the following from our friend "WeatherNLU" and he asked me to pass it on:
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Hey man, I am just getting back online.....there is no high speed where I
am. Anyway, thanks a ton.....I called FEMA today and applied for assistance
and they told me that the Red Cross has hotel vouchers for some places to
stay through this. The water keeps coming up and they've pretty much given
up on New Orleans at this point, there is nothing they can do. I will try
to get back on the forum later, but if you can tell everyone thanks!
Shawn
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Lake Toho - Kissimmee
Storm Tracker
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Loc: Kissimmee, Florida on Lake Toh...
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Cruise Ships have a 12-20 foot draft. While Mississippi does suppport some cruise ships, (mostly those of a river boat nature) there are other issues (i.e. debris in the water, bridge heights if there are any, etc.) Given the fact that most cruise ships these days cost between around 3/4 million dollars, and that they book months in advance, it is doubtful that cruise lines would risk their investment, nor displace their passengers to accomodate something like this. Most are publicly held companies these days.. Though your idea would be a great idea under the proper situation.
Logistically, search, recovery, and aide, and utility companies are gonna have an awful time. First unlike many of the previous hurricanes, hotels in the area are completely booked, some of the damaged area is completely underwater, and truly a complete infrastructure needs to be built. I guess the first thing would be to get people food, water, the sick and injured to appropriate hospitals and care facilities, and people into shelters This along with more police and National guard presence and search and rescue. Secondly, insurance workers, FEMA, and SBA need to get into the area and start writing checks. Get people some money so they can start finding alternate places to live outside the disaster area. Third you would have to get the water under control and start pumping. Fourth potable water systems and sewer have to be fixed and the system decontaminated. Fourth, electrical grid needs to be fixed, replaced and power needs to be turned up for hospitals, police, fire, etc. Once this occurs, electrical workers can start restoring power.. In parallel airports, highways and etc. need to be repaired or rebuilt. Also cleanup, restoration of business, then residences.
What nightmare.
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Dream like you will live forever.. Live like there is no tommorow.. Darwin Rules !!
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CoalCracker
Weather Hobbyist
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Posts: 96
Loc: Cape Coral, FL
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Another possibility is to move the ready reserve ships at the Maritime schools for use as temporary housing. The Empire VI from SUNY Maritime was deployed as a troop carrier to get forces to and from Somalia. All are equipped with berthing facilities, kitchen facilities, etc. Believe it can accomodate about 600 people. Not sure about the capacities of the other reserve vessels.
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Anton Ross
Weather Watcher
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Posts: 42
Loc: Downtown Beaufort Marina, SC
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Some interesting reading from MIT's Department of Earth, Atmospheric and Planetary Sciences:
http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2005/hurricanes.html
Also, some interesting counterpoint:
http://www.livescience.com/forcesofnature/ap_050731_hurricanes_stronger.html
Actually, there is quite a bit of debate about this right now, with Climatologists and Hurricane experts disagreeing over many key points.
Another interesting article from Harvard:
http://chge.med.harvard.edu/media/documents/hurricanes.pdf
Either way, doesn't change the crisis LA, MS, AL (and the U.S.) is facing with 's aftermath.
Hm...Gov. of MS basically told the president not to come tour the area. (From Larry King Live)
Not sure what to make of that?
/anton
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"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary.
-Albert Einstein
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BTfromAZ
Weather Hobbyist
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Posts: 75
Loc: San Francisco/Green Valley, AZ
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Quote:
most cruise ships these days cost between around 3/4 million dollars
I'm 99.99% sure that estimate is off by several orders of magnitude. Did you mean 3/4 BILLION?
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Random Chaos
Weather Analyst
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Posts: 1024
Loc: Maryland
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I realize this is sort of tangental to our topic, but...
I wonder if in the end we might have something like the Seattle underground. If you aren't familiar with this, let me explain:
Seattle was situated almost at sea level. When they got toilets, and thus sewers that had to flow downhill, they litterally raised the level of the city, but left the city with two levels: the old underground and the new above ground. The old underground is now a location where tourists can go on guided tours.
If New Orleans has to be rebuilt, I wonder if they might do something like that to preserve the historic nature of some parts of it, yet bring it above waterlevel for everyday use.
Edited by Random Chaos (Wed Aug 31 2005 04:27 AM)
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