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News Talkback >> 2005 News Talkbacks

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susieq
Weather Watcher


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Re: Katrina's Forecast Track Shifts West, Northern Gulf Needs to Watch [Re: Random Chaos]
      #50543 - Sat Aug 27 2005 04:20 AM

If you look at the link, you'll see a little movement north of west...

http://www.ssd.noaa.gov/PS/TROP/DATA/RT/float-ir4-loop.html

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Gulf Breeze girl still not over Ivan


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Trekman
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Re: Katrina's Forecast Track Shifts West, Northern Gulf Needs to Watch [Re: susieq]
      #50544 - Sat Aug 27 2005 04:20 AM

I still see it WSW.......dont see the north jog. Then again I'm not a pro...:)


I saw one jog to the west....then it went back south of west. Then again I have been up since 430 and its 1130 now...must be tired.....lol

--------------------
Went though: Erin ('95), Opal ('95), Danny ('97), Georges ('98), Ivan ('04), Dennis ('05)

Emergency Administration and Management program at Northwest Florida State College

Edited by Trekman (Sat Aug 27 2005 04:23 AM)


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susieq
Weather Watcher


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Re: Katrina's Forecast Track Shifts West, Northern Gulf Needs to Watch [Re: Trekman]
      #50545 - Sat Aug 27 2005 04:21 AM

Watch the eyewall move.

--------------------
Gulf Breeze girl still not over Ivan


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Random Chaos
Weather Analyst


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Re: Katrina's Forecast Track Shifts West, Northern Gulf Needs to Watch [Re: Steve]
      #50546 - Sat Aug 27 2005 04:22 AM

Quote:

Random, go to the NCEP Central Operations Page (google for that) and run it.

Steve




Didn't think to check NCEP Central Ops Page - I've got that bookmarked. I thought there was an animation somewhere.

Yes, impressive GFS. Showing pressure down to 976mb just before landfall. That's impressive for a global model considering it's too course to make out the central core of a hurricane!


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ralphfl
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Re: Katrina's Forecast Track Shifts West, Northern Gulf Needs to Watch [Re: susieq]
      #50547 - Sat Aug 27 2005 04:23 AM

Quote:

Watch the eyewall move.





I did and if anything it went a little south.Maybe you are not looking at the whole just a part of the eye opening and looking to you that way but in the last hour run its went 0 north from what i see.


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Steve
Senior Storm Chaser


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Re: Katrina's Forecast Track Shifts West, Northern Gulf Needs to Watch [Re: ralphfl]
      #50548 - Sat Aug 27 2005 04:26 AM

For motion, it's decidedly WSW. jschlitz pays for GR Level 3 Radar and has set up plot points on screen shots of radar images. Click on the image of his 11:26 post (as time shows on my pc) and then click the image again. Quite impressive job he's doing there.

http://www.storm2k.org/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=71236&start=180

Steve

--------------------
MF'n Super Bowl Champions


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jth
Storm Tracker


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Recon [Re: Steve]
      #50549 - Sat Aug 27 2005 04:30 AM

When is recon supposed to be back in?

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lunkerhunter
Storm Tracker


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Re: Katrina's Forecast Track Shifts West, Northern Gulf Needs to Watch [Re: Random Chaos]
      #50550 - Sat Aug 27 2005 04:31 AM

actually there's a 972mb

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CategoryFive
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Re: Katrina's Forecast Track Shifts West, Northern Gulf Needs to Watch [Re: MikeC]
      #50551 - Sat Aug 27 2005 04:33 AM

I am just north of Grand Isle, LA and getting nervous......

--------------------
USC can't three peat...they didn't win it all in 2003 !!


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Cash
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Re: Katrina's Forecast Track Shifts West, Northern Gulf Needs to Watch [Re: susieq]
      #50552 - Sat Aug 27 2005 04:36 AM

It needs to be repeated: hurricanes wobble in their path. No single frame to frame movement can be extrapolated into a definite larger-scale direction or direction change.

And in this case, I see no evidence of even a wobble. Look at radar images. Focus on the center of the circulation in WV and IR loops. There is no indication that I can see of even a wobble north.

And lastly, fretting over each of these frame-to-frame wobbles (real or perceived) is the path to madness, or at least a lot of silliness. This is going to be a major storm and everyone here will be obsessing to the degree expected, so that's all the more reason for posters to exercise restraint.

Don't mean to lecture.


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Margie
Senior Storm Chaser


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Re: Katrina's Forecast Track Shifts West, Northern Gulf Needs to Watch [Re: SkeetoBite]
      #50553 - Sat Aug 27 2005 04:42 AM

Quote:

Margie,

Charley 2004 was a Cat 4 at landfall. It traveled northeast across florida and was still a Cat 1 hurricane when it went back over water. This storm traveled approximately 165 miles over land. The devestation in Lake Wales was incredible. Lake Wales is exactly 72 miles from Port Charlotte/Punta Gorda.



I just did some online research on Charley and actually this does prove my point that Cat 4 / Cat 5 level winds are not sustained very far inland.

First from the NHC documentation of Charley they specify that the high Cat 4 winds were only within a 6 nautical mile radius of the eye at landfall.

Secondly from an online map and writeup documenting the damage from Charley, it was shown to be a Cat 4 for only the first 5 miles inland; by the time it had crossed the peninsula and the Myakka River, and was approaching Port Charlotte, its windfield was already down to a Cat 3. However Port Charlotte and Punta Gorda were right on the bay and within the narrow radius of the highest winds at the time, so they suffered Cat 3 level damage.

To quote from one of the online documents, "The RMS reconnaissance team surveying the landfall area confirmed the highest levels of damage from just south of Fort Myers northward to Port Charlotte. Offshore barrier islands ... took the brunt of the storm’s wind and surge." This refers to a 30-mile strip of coastal areas which took the onshore winds east or south of the eye, and does not mention any inland areas. It also indicates that windfields weakened even after only passing barrier islands, before hitting the mainland.

This is totally consistent with the windfields of Camille and Andrew, which also diminished rapidly from Cat 5 strength after very few miles inland.

So I still feel I make a good case and that it is fair to say that Cat 4 / Cat 5 level damage, which is generally complete devastation due not only to high winds, but also in no small part to storm surge and the force of wind-driven waves, is generally limited to a very small diameter area that does not extend very many miles inland.

So, to tie this to Katrina, if it does reach Cat 4 or Cat 5 intensity, the area of almost total devastation that would occur from that level of damage, if it did hit a populated shoreline, would most likely be a very small area that does not extend for very many miles inland, as was the case with Camille, Andrew, and Charley.

The point I was trying to make in the original post, was to answer the specific question of how far inland someone would have to worry about that frightening level of damage. The answer is, not very far inland, so don't worry about, as Hugh put it, the coast of Arkansas. In other words, let's minimize the panic factor.

However damage at a lower threshold can and does occur and varies with each storm.

If the original question was simply to ask, how far inland is there damage if you start with a Cat 5, then I totally misunderstood the question.

With Camille, there was huge damage in W VA from rains and flooding, long after the windfield was gone.

Edit - went back and looked, and actually I think I did misunderstand what they were asking.

So probably nobody cares just how long a Cat 4 stays a Cat 4.

Hey you can delete this post if you like!

--------------------
Katrina's Surge: http://www.wunderground.com/hurricane/Katrinas_surge_contents.asp

Edited by Margie (Sat Aug 27 2005 04:51 AM)


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KimmieL
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Re: Katrina's Forecast Track Shifts West, Northern Gulf Needs to Watch [Re: CategoryFive]
      #50554 - Sat Aug 27 2005 04:47 AM

What are the chances that Katrina does not make that northwestern turn and heads for Texas? This uncertainty is enough to drive you crazy! Dave S on TWC just said that Baton Rouge could be in the thick of things on Monday. No wishcasting. Getting prepared for all the New Orleanians passing through town tomorrow. Last time, I-10 was literally a parking lot. We are preparing, and will probably sleep with one eye open fixed on flhurricane.com!

Kimmie
Betsy in '65
Andrew in '92


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Ed DunhamAdministrator
Former Meteorologist & CFHC Forum Moderator (Ed Passed Away on May 14, 2017)


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Read The Site Rules Before Posting [Re: jth]
      #50555 - Sat Aug 27 2005 04:49 AM

A reminder that CFHC is not a chat room and that one-line posts are discouraged. Also, do some homework before you ask a question. The answers to some of the questions being asked are readily available at the NHC site - there is even a link at the bottom left to the NHC. The Rules for the site are available in the banner at the top of the page - read them! Here is an excerpt:

Before you post: Before posting, please ask yourself the following question: "Am I making a post which is informative, or interesting or adds to thoughtful discussion on any level? If is a reply, does it offer any significant advice or help contribute to the conversation in any fashion?" If you can answer "yes" to this, then please post. If you cannot, then refrain from posting.
Low Content Posts: Please do not make single line posts containing no content (ie, "Thanks!" "Great Post" "Cool!", "I agree", or something else completely void of meaning). Or general cheerleading, for example, if you think someone did a good job and have nothing else to add send them a PM, it works better for this. We appreciate the thanks, but otherwise posts like these just litter up the forums. Remember, CFHC is not a Chat Room - it is a Niche topic-oriented site, so please attempt to stay 'on topic' by placing your posts in the proper Forum. Main page articles are usually focused on one particular topic, the other forums are open to use as well and are moderated less strictly.
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The site is going to get rather busy for the next 4 or 5 days. You can help with the bandwidth issue (and help to keep the site from crashing) by reducing the number of un-necessary one liners.
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ED


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Rasvar
Weather Master


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Re: Katrina's Forecast Track Shifts West, Northern Gulf Needs to Watch [Re: Margie]
      #50556 - Sat Aug 27 2005 04:52 AM

Yes, the total destruction zone will probably not extend more then 10-15 miles max in a cat5. Land features will also affect this. I suspect some of the bayous will all for the longer run versus the shorter becuase of less land mass friction. However, it does take almost perfect conditions to maintain a 4 or 5. Cat 3 can be maintained for a much longer distance. While not as catastrophic by a exponential scale, I can assure you that a cat 3 can cause major damage. Have a couple of condemned house in my neighborhood still from one.

EDIT: Posted before I saw margie's edit that covered this. Can be deleted.

--------------------
Jim


Edited by Rasvar (Sat Aug 27 2005 04:54 AM)


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gman
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Re: Katrina's Forecast Track Shifts West, Northern Gulf Needs to Watch [Re: MikeC]
      #50557 - Sat Aug 27 2005 04:54 AM

Will be interesting to see how Katrina ultimately plots relative to Betsy (1965). Though Betsy started much further southeast, the tracks are similar now: blocked while heading northward off east Florida , turns to southwest (though Betsy made a small loop), crosses Everglades and, eventually, makes landfall just west of New Orleans. Betsy link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Betsy-track.gif

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danielwAdministrator
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Re: Read The Site Rules Before Posting [Re: Ed Dunham]
      #50559 - Sat Aug 27 2005 04:55 AM

If I might add. You can help limit some of space, by Not using " QUOTES" on every post.

Edit the quotes. You don't have to include the whole post of the person you are quoting. Just the part that you are refering to .

One more request. If you mention a model or a source of information. Just put a link (short link) to the site so that others can read the info as well.
Thanks.


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lunkerhunter
Storm Tracker


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Re: Katrina's Forecast Track Shifts West, Northern Gulf Needs to Watch [Re: Margie]
      #50560 - Sat Aug 27 2005 04:57 AM

Margie,
With all due respect to your research and your opinion, I think we've boiled this down to issues of communication and semantics, not science.

The original question was "how far inland does a 5 do damage?"
Answer is, it could easily be several hundred miles.
But not as a 5 of course.

I took issue with your statement that with a Cat 4 or 5 that "3 or 4 miles inland -- no devastation".
I guess it depends on your definitions of complete devastation versus no devastation.
Charley taught many Floridians what a Cat 4 can do 25, 50, even 100+ miles inland.
Many of those impacted would call it devastation. I sure would.

Sleep well!

Chris


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Margie
Senior Storm Chaser


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Re: Katrina's Forecast Track Shifts West, Northern Gulf Needs to Watch [Re: Steve]
      #50561 - Sat Aug 27 2005 04:59 AM

Steve thanks for that info on the worst case hit for NO.

So if the track were to move maybe 50mi west of where it is currently predicted, certainly not out of the question, that could come pretty close to the worst case scenario.

--------------------
Katrina's Surge: http://www.wunderground.com/hurricane/Katrinas_surge_contents.asp


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Storm Hunter
Veteran Storm Chaser


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Recon up! and on the way [Re: Margie]
      #50563 - Sat Aug 27 2005 05:03 AM

URNT11 KNHC 270453
97779 04364 70285 88100 70000 32010 6484/ /5765
RMK AF304 1212A Katrina OB 01

Recon up and on the way to Katrina.....what will she hold....will know in an hour or so!

--------------------
www.Stormhunter7.com ***see my flight into Hurricane Ike ***
Wx Data: KFLPANAM23 / CW8771
2012== 23/10/9/5 sys/strms/hurr/majh



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Margie
Senior Storm Chaser


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Re: Katrina's Forecast Track Shifts West, Northern Gulf Needs to Watch [Re: lunkerhunter]
      #50564 - Sat Aug 27 2005 05:04 AM

Quote:

I think we've boiled this down to issues of communication and semantics, not science. I took issue with your statement that with a Cat 4 or 5 that "3 or 4 miles inland -- no devastation".



Agreed...I should have explained better (or read the original post with half a brain). I think I've been here too long today and I really ran that one into the ground!

Getting back on track, just looked at the wv loop, and it is amazing how far SW she continues to track - the center may even be S of Key West now. And I also can't wait to hear what the recon finds, as the sat signature is very impressive. On Key West long-range loop the storm has finally gained much more symmetry even if it doesn't appear from radar that strong convective bands totally surround the eye (could this be a function of the distance from the radar?) In fact on both radar and satellite it now has that compacted buzzsaw or donut-shaped signature indicative of strong storms.

--------------------
Katrina's Surge: http://www.wunderground.com/hurricane/Katrinas_surge_contents.asp

Edited by Margie (Sat Aug 27 2005 05:26 AM)


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