cyclonebuster
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EXAMPLE:
Dear Mr. McNulty,
I don't have much opinion on whether the engineering aspects of this would work or not, but I can offer a few quick thoughts on the SST and hurricane response.
I have not done modeling of hurricanes analogous to this situation.
We have looked into cases where the entire tropics warm up, including the atmosphere above the ocean surface. See:
www.gfdl.noaa.gov/tk/glob_warm_hurr.html
I would speculate that in your case, the response of the hurricane would depend on the size (horizontal and vertical) of the cool patch of ocean water created, the length of time that the patch of cool SST persists, and the length of time that the particular storm spends over the patch.
In some ways this sounds more like the problem of a hurricane/trop storm encountering a cool eddy. I'm sure there are papers on this problem in the hurricane forecasting or modeling literature, but I don't have any to point you toward offhand.
The larger the patch of cool water and the longer it persisted, the more likely it could affect the larger scale environment, I imagine, which could also affect the storm and other weather in the surrounding region.
In any case, I really don't foresee having time to construct and conduct an experiment to test your hypothesis. Unfortunately there too many other interesting hurricane and climate problems on my plate at the moment.
But I wish you luck with your project and ideas.
--
Tom Knutson
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Geophysical Fluid Dynamics Lab /NOAA | phone: +1-609-452-6509
P.O. Box 308 | fax: +1-609-987-5063
Forrestal Campus, U.S. Rt. 1 N | e-mail: Tom.Knutson@noaa.gov
Princeton, New Jersey 08542 U.S.A. | http://www.gfdl.noaa.gov/~tk
Pat McNulty wrote:
>
> Tom and Robert,
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Phil Klotzbach [mailto:philk@atmos.colostate.edu]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 9:34 PM
> To: Pat McNulty
> Subject: Re: Pascal's and Bernoulli's principle weakens hurricanes
>
> Dear Pat,
>
> It's an interesting idea. I do not do dynamical computer modeling, however.
>
> I would suggest contacting Thomas Knutson or Robert Tuleya at the
> Geophysical Dynamics Laboratory at Princeton, since they would have the
> computational capabilities to verify your theory. Their contact information
>
> is as follows:
>
> Thomas Knutson
> Tom.Knutson@noaa.gov
>
> Robert Tuleya
> Robert.Tuleya@noaa.gov
>
> I hope this helps.
>
> Phil
>
> ----------------------------------------------------
> Phil Klotzbach
> Research Associate
> Department of Atmospheric Science
> Colorado State University
> philk@atmos.colostate.edu
> Phone: (970) 491-8605
> -----------------------------------------------------
>
> Can you do computer modeling on this idea? I am interested in the results?
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----
>
> From: Michael Oppenheimer [mailto:omichael@Princeton.EDU]
> Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2005 4:40 AM
> To: Pat McNulty
> Subject: RE: Bernoulli's equation used to modify hurricanes and tornado's
>
>
>
> Sounds plausible. Questions I would ask include the cost of construction,
> cost of maintaining the system, side effects to the local marine
> environment. Whether it actually would work ought to be tested with some
> modeling. You could contact Kerry Emanuel at MIT to see what he thinks of
> the possibility of modeling it to see if it actually works as envisioned.
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----
>
> From: Pat McNulty [mailto:stackgenerator@cableone.net]
> Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2005 1:19 AM
> To: 'Michael Oppenheimer'
> Subject: RE: Bernoulli's equation used to modify hurricanes and tornado's
>
>
>
> Here is how it will work. Anchor a large tunnel to the sea floor like a buoy
> but in several locations around the tunnel to hold it fast to the sea bed.
> Position it to where one open end opposes the current at depth where the
> cool water is and the other open end at the surface faces away from the
> current. What happens is a difference in pressure is created at both ends
> and when a pressure difference is created flow occurs. That is the beauty of
> Bernoulli's principle. Cool water is bought up from below thus mixing with
> the warm water at the surface. The tunnel is neutrally buoyant with the top
> end just under the surface. Remember it can only work where there is a
> current. No current, no difference in pressure. Also, enough electricity can
> be generated for millions of people in Florida.
>
> With the use of both of these principles combined no pumps are needed since
> the water will flow up the tunnel naturally. They can also be placed in the
> Yucatan and Caribbean currents thus cooling the Gulf of Mexico via the loop
> current thus saving the Gulf States, if placed SW of Key West They will save
> the whole East coast Of North America. The SSTs can be regulated to 70 to 80
> degrees by the addition of a gate on the discharge end of the tunnel that
> regulates the flow of cool water flowing from them.
>
> The idea does not eliminate the hurricanes it modifies them to a much
> weaker state no more than a catagory one by regulating the SSTs. The
> transfer of heat to the mid latitudes still occurs. The ocean temperature is
> regulated between 70 and 75 degrees and therefore as the storm crosses the
> cooler water it just weakens but it is not eliminated. BTW during the winter
> the temperature of the gulf is below 70 degrees so this should not harm sea
> life.
> tornado's may not even form in the mid west because of the cooler
> temperatures in the Gulf thus cooling the warm air migrating to the North
> out of the Gulf Of Mexico. Since the air is cooler not as much lift is
> created in the atmosphere for tornados to form.
>
> Pascal's principle:
> F1 is the force of the gulf stream exerts on the mouth of the tunnel at
> depth.
>
> http://www.scientia.org/cadonline/Physics/fluids/pascal.ASP
>
> Bernoulli's principle:
> A negative pressure is created when the gulf stream rushes pass the exit of
> the tunnel near the surface.
>
> http://theory.uwinnipeg.ca/mod_tech/node68.html
>
> All I did was combine both principles together to make the thing work with
> the tunnel. Any thoughts?
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Pat McNulty
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----
>
> From: Michael Oppenheimer [mailto:omichael@Princeton.EDU]
> Sent: Friday, October 28, 2005 12:52 PM
> To: Pat McNulty
> Subject: RE: Bernoulli's equation used to modify hurricanes and tornado's
>
>
>
> Interesting idea. Let me think about it some more. Generally, I'm
> skeptical of geo-engineering but maybe you've got something here.
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----
>
> From: Pat McNulty [mailto:stackgenerator@cableone.net]
> Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2005 7:56 PM
> To: omichael@Princeton.EDU
> Subject: Bernoulli's equation used to modify hurricanes and tornado's
>
>
>
> Michael,
>
> I have two neat ideas to modify hurricanes that will work physically.
> Bernoulli's Principle and underwater tunnels can weaken hurricanes just as
> the principle works on an airplanes wing creating lift.It works for fluids
> and gasses. They can create upwelling in the path of a storm thus weaken it.
> They can only work where a current exists such as the Gulf stream current or
> the Caribbean and Yucatan currents. The current that runs through the
> tunnels can be turned on or off and can restore proper temperatures to the
> oceans sea surface temperatures thus regulating them.
>
> If placed in the proper locations these tunnels would reduce a hurricane or
> tornado's impact. It may even prevent a tornado from forming at all. These
> tunnels by product can produce enough electricity for the world without
> warming the planet. Wow imagine the effects when a billion more people buy
> cars and get electricity in just 15 years in China. Any thoughts??
>
>
>
> Pat McNulty
>
>
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HanKFranK
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Posts: 1841
Loc: Graniteville, SC
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okay, i haven't been doing serious climatology for more than a year, but with just the little i know the ideas presented here don't have merit.
it would require a great deal of energy to turbidly mix the ocean layer. the depth of the warmth is oceans is deepest in these currents, also... so redirecting water up from below in these areas wouldn't have much of an effect.
you would need a freaking enormous tunnel to do this and it would need to be powered to transport so much water (deep ocean water is heavier and more saline and naturally doesn't want to come up except in upwelling zones). you would need many of them to create an appreciable difference in the SSTs across a large enough area to affect hurricane boundary conditions, or at least many to cool specific places to intercept storms (and they don't sound very mobile). small patches of cooling could actually help create gradients (i.e., the inward flow of nearby ocean heat to compensate) which have been noted as locations that hurricanes often rapidly intensity, and thereby be deterimental.
the idea that you can change a hurricane by altering local boundary conditions is a little bit nuts, but that tornado climatology could be affected is beyond silly. to get rid of the tornado-favorable conditions you'd need to shut off the low level heat transport over the continent from the gulf. that would screw up the climate over continental america, shorten growing seasons, allow arctic air intrusions more of the year. cooling the gulf that much, if possible, would cause DRAMATIC shifts in the climate, changes in vegetation, species, and have a cool the eastern u.s. back to late glacial type conditions. the tolerances of a lot of plant and animal species are much narrower than most people think. cooling the gulf that much would also likely alter the northward heat transport in the atlantic and screw europe up too. the law of unintended consequences would run amok.
but that's all hypothetical poo, because there isn't any way to modify SSTs that much.
climate is a closed system. you push somewhere and it pushes back, or jumps stability modes. luckily the ability for humans to push isn't as great as some wish it was.
HF 1627z10december
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