SkeetoBite
Master of Maps
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Loc: Lakeland, FL
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Clark, I'm fascinated by larger storms seek the poles while large icebergs seek the equator. Hmmmm... maybe we should start an educational thread for between systems. Oh yeah, that's when we sleep!
Seriously though, I've been wondering about that.
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PolkBB
Verified CFHC User
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I'd also be interested in knowing why larger storms tend to move poleward.
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hurricane_run
Storm Tracker
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Loc: USA
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Hey Clark,
I would also be interested in your thoughts on poleward movement with lager/stonger storms. Thanks in advance.
HR
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wxman007
Meteorologist
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Loc: Tuscaloosa, AL
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Trends back to the east a bit...very close to the official track.
-------------------- Jason Kelley
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Sadie
Weather Watcher
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Loc: Arcadia, FL
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Quote:
All 5 seasons with majors in July were very active seasons with a large number of U.S. landfalls.
Don't much like the sound of that........ Well at least I bought a generator during 'sans sales tax week'.
-------------------- "...Grandmother the Earth. That power is here all the time. It is continuous, and nobody controls it." Wallace Black Elk, Lakota
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hurricane_run
Storm Tracker
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that is not a good trend.
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Keeneye
Unregistered
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Just a note, our local mets are reporting that Cindy is not making the NE turn. We expect here in N.O. more rain and wind than anticipated....so far rain has turned heavy (but not torrential) and wind gradually getting higher in spurts. I have nearly lost power twice but local reports say wind only into the 40's (while a storm flag ripped of the pole in the min-cam background) but this is at least = to Isadore, Lili and from my memory. More later if possible.
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hurricane_run
Storm Tracker
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Thanks for the update.
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maybe maybe not
Unregistered
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The 00Z run has it direct hit on New Orleans.
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PolkBB
Verified CFHC User
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Not good for the central Gulf but might keep us in Central Florida out of the woods.
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danielw
Moderator
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Loc: Hattiesburg,MS (31.3N 89.3W)
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Try the NWS Slidell link or NOAA weather radio.
http://www.srh.noaa.gov/lix/
My favorite (since 1965) is WWL 870 AM.
I believe both the and NWS Slidell have said that Cindy has turned toward the NE or NNE.
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dem05
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Loc: Port Charlotte, FL
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Mr Stewart is clairvoyant (sp?) for those new models I guess? I haven't found the , but here is the : http://moe.met.fsu.edu/cgi-bin/cmctc2.cg...;hour=Animation And the new is up on this one (the others are old, please note times): http://www.sfwmd.gov/org/omd/ops/weather/plots/storm_04.gif
Only spooky question, what if the next forecast track goes east? Wonder if models follow again. Just an aside...
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hurricane_run
Storm Tracker
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If that were to happen that would not be to good. But it is still way too far out to pick out any one spot. I can't say it enough, people on the Gulf Coast need to keep a close eye out and be prepared. I know hunches and feelings don't nessisarily mean anything but seeing it headed possibly to NO gives me a funny feeling.
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danielw
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Loc: Hattiesburg,MS (31.3N 89.3W)
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Easy Now. It wasn't that accurate with Cindy that far out.
And remember. The models are working with a Tropical Storm at present. Not a Hurricane or Major Hurricane. Which would generate a slighly different solution.
HF help me out here.
I believe that Cindy was first progged in to the TX/ LA border?
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Clark
Meteorologist
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Well, by popular request...
On the Earth, we've got something called the Coriolis effect, inherent to the rotation of the Earth. It gets stronger as you move poleward; it is very weak at the equator, gradually increasing through the tropics, then ramping up around 45 N/S. It is a right-of-motion deflection, meaning anything moving to the west is going to tend to be deflected towards the north. We quantify this effect with the Coriolis parameter, termed f in meteorology. It is generally much smaller than the vorticity (spin) found within a tropical cyclone by 100+ times, but is nevertheless significant.
As a storm grows larger -- or, alternatively, as it grows stronger and its peripheral impacts reach over a larger area -- it is able to reach both higher and lower values to the north and south (respectively) of the Coriolis parameter than were it at a normal (or its original) size.
Now, picture the flow around a hurricane in the Northern Hemisphere (you can apply these to the southern hemisphere, but for simplicity and practicality's sake, I'll stick to the NH here). Air -- we call it a parcel of air -- due west of the center is going to move south, while that due east of the center is going to move north. So now, you have two parcels displaced from the latitude of the center, one in the SW quadrant of the storm, another in the NE quadrant.
In general, vorticity (here, the spin of the atmosphere plus the Coriolis effect) is a conserved quantity, meaning if one goes up, the other has to go down to compensate. So, picture the air parcel on the SW side of the storm. Since f decreases towards the south, the value of the vorticity of the parcel is greater than that of its environment (where the value of f is smaller). Similarly, on the NE side of the storm, the value of the vorticity of the parcel is less than that of its environment (since the value of f increases to the north, this is where the value of f is larger than that of the parcel of air).
On the SW side, we call this greater value of vorticity a positive perturbation, whereas on the NE side, the smaller value of vorticity is termed a negative perturbation. In meteorology, positive values of vorticity -- again, spin -- are associated with cyclones and cyclonic flow. Thus, on the SW side of the storm, you get this weak cyclonic eddy; this results in a flow from the southeast to the northwest across the storm. On the NE side of the storm, you get a weak anticyclonic eddy, also resulting in the same flow across the storm.
Note that further away from the storm with these eddies, you get flow to the southeast, but that affects the outside environment and not the storm. It's hard to describe with words, but I can't find a suitable picture.
The stronger (larger) a storm is, the stronger these eddies become. Thus, in general, the natural tendency of a symmetric tropical cyclone is to move to the northwest; the larger flow pattern, such as a strong subtropical ridge, usually overwhelms this effect. Nevertheless, these eddies can impart a northwestward motion upon the storm of about 2-3mph....trending more to the north with a larger/stronger storm. Not large, and generally negligible, but it is an effect included in the Beta advection models -- in fact, this is exactly what Beta advection is, the so-called beta effect.
I've tried to make this as non-technical as possible, but I'm sure it is probably still too much, for which I apologize. I'll try to refine it a bit if need be, though. As always, this is somewhat of a simplified model, as it assumes a symmetric storm in an ideal environment; the same principles hold for shearing environments and/or asymmetric storms, but just to different magnitudes and perhaps slightly different directions.
Hope this helps, at least a little!
-------------------- Current Tropical Model Output Plots
(or view them on the main page for any active Atlantic storms!)
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SkeetoBite
Master of Maps
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Loc: Lakeland, FL
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That's awesome! Thanks Clark. I can acually get my brain around that.
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hurricane_run
Storm Tracker
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Thanks for your time and very indepth and helpful explaination.
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danielw
Moderator
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Loc: Hattiesburg,MS (31.3N 89.3W)
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URGENT - IMMEDIATE BROADCAST REQUESTED
TORNADO WATCH NUMBER 608
NWS STORM PREDICTION CENTER NORMAN OK
1140 PM CDT TUE JUL 5 2005
EFFECTIVE THIS TUESDAY NIGHT AND WEDNESDAY MORNING FROM 1140 PM UNTIL 800 AM CDT.
THE NWS STORM PREDICTION CENTER HAS ISSUED A
TORNADO WATCH FOR PORTIONS OF
EXTREME SOUTHWEST ALABAMA
EXTREME SOUTHEAST LOUISIANA
SOUTHERN MISSISSIPPI
COASTAL WATERS
THE TORNADO WATCH AREA IS APPROXIMATELY ALONG AND 50 STATUTE MILES
NORTH AND SOUTH OF A LINE FROM 55 MILES WEST SOUTHWEST OF GULFPORT
MISSISSIPPI TO 45 MILES EAST SOUTHEAST OF MOBILE ALABAMA. FOR A
COMPLETE DEPICTION OF THE WATCH SEE THE ASSOCIATED WATCH OUTLINE
UPDATE (WOUS64 KWNS WOU8).
LOUISIANA PARISHES INCLUDED ARE
JEFFERSON ORLEANS PLAQUEMINES
ST. BERNARD ST. TAMMANY
MISSISSIPPI COUNTIES INCLUDED ARE
GEORGE HANCOCK HARRISON
JACKSON PEARL RIVER STONE
ALABAMA COUNTIES INCLUDED ARE
BALDWIN MOBILE
http://www.srh.noaa.gov/data/WNS/SEL8.0507060441
Edited by danielw (Wed Jul 06 2005 12:58 AM)
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FlaMommy
Storm Tracker
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Loc: Tampa(Riverview), Florida
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wow im frazzled...lol...very very good info tho...thanks
-------------------- "Haven't thought of a witty one lately"
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hurricane_run
Storm Tracker
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Loc: USA
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Dennis looks like he his getting his act together somewhat.
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