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Myles
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Re: Pascal's and Bernoulli's principle combined will weaken Hurricanes [Re: cyclonekiller]
      #63510 - Wed Nov 09 2005 08:10 PM

Quote:

The gulf stream won't stop flowing because the Earth would have to stop spinning for that to happen.




I hate to burst your bubble, but the gulf stream has shut down before. It caused a relatively short ice age. I say relatively because I believe it was in the hundreds or thousands of years, long for us, short compared to some ice ages. I donít think the Earth has ever stopped spinning, though.

The spin of the Earth does cause currents to flow, but its not the only factor. Cold water sinking in the north by Greenland plays a major role in where the gulf stream goes. The pressure principle you've been talking about, its applied right there. The cold, sinking water causes a pressure difference. As it sinks, it pulls warm water up from the southern latitudes. You donít think this might change if its no longer pulling warm water, but much cooler water?


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cyclonekiller
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Re: Pascal's and Bernoulli's principle combined will weaken Hurricanes [Re: Myles]
      #63511 - Wed Nov 09 2005 08:16 PM

No the temperatue difference is not great enough for that to happen otherwise it would happen in our winter time when the temperatue of the water falls below 70 degrees.

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Myles
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Re: Pascal's and Bernoulli's principle combined will weaken Hurricanes [Re: cyclonekiller]
      #63512 - Wed Nov 09 2005 10:04 PM

You assume too much. First, colder artic water migrates south in the winter so that the temperature difference is relatively the same. Cooler water might be moving north from the equator, but at the same time extremely cold water is moving south from the artic.

Second, some temperature difference would shut it down. If water moving up from the equator became nearly as cold as the artic water, then the system would stop working. Now, thatís an extreme and I'm not saying thatís going to happen. What I'm saying is that a temperature change of 10 degrees could very well alter it significantly in direction and strength, a change that might not correct itself after the temp's are back to normal.


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cyclonekiller
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Re: Pascal's and Bernoulli's principle combined will weaken Hurricanes [Re: Myles]
      #63513 - Wed Nov 09 2005 10:32 PM

The temperature change is what makes the exchange happen. It is similar to the tunnel if no differential in pressure occurs then no flow occurs. The same happens with temperature if no differential in temperature occurs then no exchange will happen. The temperature is well above that point even at 70 degrees.

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Myles
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Re: Pascal's and Bernoulli's principle combined will weaken Hurricanes [Re: cyclonekiller]
      #63516 - Thu Nov 10 2005 06:18 AM

Are you so sure? You know for a fact that in the middle of summer, when you release 70 degree waters up the east coast, that its not going to change the way that gulf stream flows? I'm not saying shut it down, I'm saying change it.

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Clark
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Re: Pascal's and Bernoulli's principle combined will weaken Hurricanes [Re: cyclonekiller]
      #63519 - Thu Nov 10 2005 11:47 AM

How is this going to be large enough to effect a change over the entire Gulf of Mexico? It does nothing for a series of storms like we saw in 2004, either, or any of the other years where the East Coast was affected. A temporary change can be enough to affect a much larger change; not just that, but a cyclic change in ocean temperatures is going to wreak havoc with coral/subterrainean life/industry along the coast. Further, the Loop Current stretches over many hundreds of square miles, extends very deep into the ocean, and has eddies that spin off at random intervals around the Gulf of Mexico. How do you plan to account for that?

Plus, these principles have been around for hundreds of years; it's not like they are new concepts that no one has thought about before now. It's just not feasible. The better -- and safer -- course of action is to have people do what they are supposed to do when a storm threatens, i.e. prepare and leave. So many lives could have been saved from many storms in the past just by people doing what they should do during storms. I understand that not everyone has the means to escape on their own, but everyone does have the means to get to a shelter, hitch a ride with someone out of town, or at least take basic precautions to prepare themselves for a storm. It's not a question of awareness and response from authorities now; at some point, people have to take responsibility for their own actions. This proposal does not bring that about and quite frankly would likely cause more problems than it would solve.

--------------------
Current Tropical Model Output Plots
(or view them on the main page for any active Atlantic storms!)


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cyclonekiller
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Re: Pascal's and Bernoulli's principle combined will weaken Hurricanes [Re: Clark]
      #63535 - Thu Nov 10 2005 09:52 PM

I would agree with you but the water temperature can be regulated to any temperature between 70 and 95 degrees just by opening or closing a gate on the discharge end at the top. The loop current in the gulf is created by the Yucatan and Caribbean currents joining together from the Caribbean Sea. If the tunnels were placed across the Yuctan channel the tunnels would cool all of the Gulf Of Mexico in about 14 days to any temperature. Sorry, I just don't see the harm in it if it can save lifes. When finished just close the gate and let temperatures stabalize again and wait for the next storm to come by then repeat the process.

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Convergence
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Re: Pascal's and Bernoulli's principle combined will weaken Hurricanes [Re: cyclonekiller]
      #63536 - Thu Nov 10 2005 10:29 PM

If you're only concerned with saving lives then come up with some actually feasible ideas for improving evacuations.

I don't think you are grasping the fact that this project of yours is essentially impossible at this point in time. It would be the largest engineering project in the history of the human race. Construction would take decades. Upkeep would cost trillions and require constant massive-scale maintenence. Let alone the environmental effects that you are completely ignoring.

You are also ignoring the point that hurricanes are a necessary part of the climate. They occur for a reason. Do you honestly think we should cut off such a large vent of tropical energy? Do you even have the faintest idea of what that would do? No, you don't, because no one knows.

Are you pulling these figures out of thin air? How can you arbitrarily declare that you can cool the entire Gulf 25 degrees in 14 days? I would like to see these "calculations".


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cyclonekiller
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Re: Pascal's and Bernoulli's principle combined will weaken Hurricanes [Re: Convergence]
      #63537 - Thu Nov 10 2005 11:08 PM

Calculate the cubic feet of water coming from a tunnel 200 feet wide 50 feet tall at five miles per hour then multiply that by 1500 tunnels.

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Clark
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Re: Pascal's and Bernoulli's principle combined will weaken Hurricanes [Re: cyclonekiller]
      #63587 - Mon Nov 14 2005 01:31 AM

Quote:

The loop current in the gulf is created by the Yucatan and Caribbean currents joining together from the Caribbean Sea. If the tunnels were placed across the Yuctan channel the tunnels would cool all of the Gulf Of Mexico in about 14 days to any temperature. Sorry, I just don't see the harm in it if it can save lifes.




Therein lies the problems. One, water doesn't move that fast across the Gulf; researches have been tracking the discharge from rivers & cities due to Katrina's impact and its impacts could only be felt across part of the northern Gulf even a month after the fact, all regulated by the eddies. You aren't going to cool water across the entire basin that quickly with anything unless you spread it across the entire Gulf. That's just not feasible, even if it weren't asking for an ecological disaster.

Two, you don't know the repercussions of such an activity. Many people depend upon the Gulf for a living. Drastic and sudden changes to the ecosystem in the Gulf can disrupt that -- sometimes permanently. The result of the change, even if it were as simple as you believe it to be (which it isn't), could be as negative as a hurricane would be.

The best way to save lives and property is not to attempt to modify these storms by regulating their environment, a largely impossible and impractical task, but instead to educate people about their impacts, urge them to take precautions for any storm to protect both life and property, and adhere to stronger and smarter building codes, among other activities. It's much less costly, has no impact upon the environment or ecosystem of the region, and achieves the exact same goal.


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cyclonekiller
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Re: Pascal's and Bernoulli's principle combined will weaken Hurricanes [Re: Clark]
      #63590 - Mon Nov 14 2005 06:26 AM

"Drastic and sudden changes to the ecosystem in the Gulf can disrupt that -- sometimes permanently. The result of the change, even if it were as simple as you believe it to be (which it isn't), could be as negative as a hurricane would be."

The temperature change is not that drastic since the difference of the temperature change is less than what occurs between summer and winter. Since the difference is less than what normally occurs between summer and winter the negative impact would be far less than another Katrina. And the cooling of the loop current in the Gulf would have a huge impact on any storm crossing its path.Here is the proof.

Link: Scroll down just a little to view the article. I've done my homework on this and the idea will work.

http://www.usatoday.com/weather/huricane/science/warmpool.htm


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Myles
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Re: Pascal's and Bernoulli's principle combined will weaken Hurricanes [Re: cyclonekiller]
      #63612 - Mon Nov 14 2005 04:40 PM

You seem to fail to relize that those summer and winter temps are just that, summer and winter. Animals behave differently during those time, do different things, are in different places. You cant just change the temp on them by 10-15 degrees then have it slowly change back, the animals would completely change what they are doing. You might cause a mass migration, or stop one. You certainly don't know. I certainly dont know. I doubt anyone really knows.

BTW, that link didn't provide any information that people here didn't already know. Cooling the waters would slow or stop hurricanes, yes its true, its all the other problems we are all woried about.
One more thing, thats a news article, not the best source for information. Look to scientific journals, university webpages, ect, for good quality information.


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cyclonekiller
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Re: Pascal's and Bernoulli's principle combined will weaken Hurricanes [Re: Myles]
      #63613 - Mon Nov 14 2005 04:58 PM

I do take a look.

http://wind.mit.edu/~emanuel/home.html


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Myles
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Loc: SW FL
Re: Pascal's and Bernoulli's principle combined will weaken Hurricanes [Re: cyclonekiller]
      #63617 - Mon Nov 14 2005 06:57 PM

Excellent, that appears to be a great source of info. However, we aren't discounting that lower water temps will lower hurricane intensity. We are saying that economically it will cost billions, if not more. Also that ecologically it would be disruptive at best, catastrophic at worst.

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cyclonekiller
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Re: Pascal's and Bernoulli's principle combined will weaken Hurricanes [Re: Myles]
      #63618 - Mon Nov 14 2005 07:05 PM

I would agree If the tunnels cooled the SSTs lower than 70 degrees, cooler than that in the winter time. Otherwise no ill effects will happen except to the hurricane.

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Myles
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Re: Pascal's and Bernoulli's principle combined will weaken Hurricanes [Re: cyclonekiller]
      #63619 - Mon Nov 14 2005 07:11 PM

You think that lowering water temps to 75 degrees in the middle of summer would have no effect on marine species?

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cyclonekiller
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Re: Pascal's and Bernoulli's principle combined will weaken Hurricanes [Re: Myles]
      #63620 - Mon Nov 14 2005 07:20 PM

NO

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Myles
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Re: Pascal's and Bernoulli's principle combined will weaken Hurricanes [Re: cyclonekiller]
      #63621 - Mon Nov 14 2005 07:24 PM

Then you need to do some more research. It certainly would have an effect. You must take into account what time of the year it is when these temperature changes take place. It would completely change an animals behavior. Most likely in a deadly way.

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cyclonekiller
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Re: Pascal's and Bernoulli's principle combined will weaken Hurricanes [Re: Myles]
      #63623 - Mon Nov 14 2005 07:42 PM

I have and cold fronts can cool the water 15 degrees overnite in some areas. If the fish don't like it then they just swim away. What do you want to do, boil them to death with global warming?

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Myles
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Re: Pascal's and Bernoulli's principle combined will weaken Hurricanes [Re: cyclonekiller]
      #63624 - Mon Nov 14 2005 07:54 PM

Umm...the oceans aren't going to boil away, not unless we nuke the planet or the sun explodes.

Cold fronts may lower it 15 degrees, but that is the surface temp, underneath it takes a lot longer to cool that much. Also, what about the species that can't swim away, like coral? What happens to that? How about when the fish swim back and you release more cold water again? Then they swim away, then swim back. Then they probably do it again, and again, and again. That is until they are so stressed out from the temperature changes that they simply give up and die.

One more thing, your idea won't stop global warming. The energy is simply going somewhere else on the globe. It can't go away, goes against the laws of thermodynamics. The only way to stop global warming(if it even exsists, thats still debatable) is to remove heat from the earth. Sounds like another project for you.


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