cyclonekiller
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Here is how it will work. Anchor a large tunnel to the sea floor like a buoy but in several locations around the tunnel to hold it fast to the sea bed.
Position it to where one open end opposes the current at depth where the cool water is and the other open end at the surface faces away from the current. What happens is a difference in pressure is created at both ends and when a pressure difference is created flow occurs. That is the beauty of Bernoulli's principle. Cool water is bought up from below thus mixing with the warm water at the surface. The tunnel is neutrally buoyant with the top end just under the surface. Remember it can only work where there is a current. No current, no difference in pressure. Also, enough electricity can be generated for millions of people in Florida.
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cyclonekiller
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With the use of both of these principles combined no pumps are needed since the water will flow up the tunnel naturally. They can also be placed in the Yucatan and Caribbean currents thus cooling the Gulf of Mexico via the loop current thus saving the Gulf States, if placed SW of Key West They will save the whole East coast Of North America. The SSTs can be regulated to 70 to 75 degrees by the addition of a gate on the discharge end of the tunnel that regulates the flow of cool water flowing from them. Also, these tunnels will generate enough electricity for millions of people from the flow of water coming from them.
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cyclonekiller
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So sad. My idea would prevent this from happening.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051106/ap_on_re_us/midwest_tornado
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Clark
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And what about the ecological impacts across the Gulf of Mexico? How about the cost feasibility for the Gulf, Caribbean, and Atlantic? How about the overall impacts on global weather and climate -- after all, hurricanes redistribute heat from the tropics to the midlatitudes to keep the global climate system in balance. And, last I checked, tornadoes don't have a lot to do with the oceans.
I'm sorry, but while it may sound good in principle, it just doesn't work in reality, creating many more problems than it would solve -- as strange as that may sound given the cost of hurricanes in terms of both human life and dollars. Removing hurricanes would throw the entire climate system out of balance, with many repercussions.
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cyclonekiller
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The idea does not eliminate the hurricanes it modifys them to a much weaker state no more than a catagory one by regulating the SSTs. The transfer of heat to the mid laditudes still occurs. The ocean temperature is regulated between 70 and 75 degrees and therefore as the storm crosses the cooler water it just weakens but it is not eliminated. BTW during the winter the temperature of the gulf is below 70 degrees so this should not harm sea life.
Tornado's may not even form in the mid west because of the cooler temperatures in the Gulf thus cooling the warm air migrating to the North out of the Gulf Of Mexico. Since the air is cooler not as much lift is created in the atmosphere for tornados to form.
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Clark
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Again, it's not quite that simple. The amount of heat transferred is proportional to the storm's intensity; by modifying storm intensity -- taking the SSTs down to 70-75F would not lead to category 1 storms, it would lead to almost no storms, with the caveat that SSTs are not the sole factor toward TC intensity -- you would be changing the heat transfer across the globe.
Water temperatures are not constant with depth; in fact, they are far from it. Further, the annual cycles of SSTs plus the change in SSTs with depth play a key role in maintaining stability within the oceans and supporting all manners of life, whether on land or in the water. How exactly do you propose doing this over a (rough estimate) 6.25 million square kilometer region in the Gulf of Mexico, anyway? The cost of such a system just over the Gulf of Mexico to work effectively -- never mind the inherent problems to the "solution" -- would be well into the billions of dollars, if not trillions, and likely would not work even then. Do you have any idea of the amount of water that would need to be affected over just a 1 mile x 1 mile box in the Gulf, or the amount of pipes & mechanisms needed to effect this change over reasonable length scales? It's much, much more than you would think.
What about other regions of the globe, both in the Atlantic and not in the Atlantic? What about midlatitude weather systems? Many people depend upon the sea for their way of life, and by changing that you would be eliminating their way of life. I could go on, but as in most facets of life -- things are not as simple as they would seem.
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(or view them on the main page for any active Atlantic storms!)
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cyclonekiller
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It would cost about 10 billion dollars to make the 1500 tunnels. They would cross the 50 mile width of the Gulfstream just SW of Key West and would protect the east coast of the USA. from Key West to Maine. The water can be regulated to any temperature between 70 and 90 degrees by opening or closing a gate on the discharge of the tunnel at the surface thus regulating SSTs. The power generated woud be enough for 22 million people and the tunnels would pay for themselves over time and nip away at the cause of global warming. It seems like a small price to pay instead of paying for 200 billion dollar plus storm nowadays let alone the lifes they take. If it would save one life it would be worth it to me. 70 degrees is what winter time temps. are anyways so no harm to environment would occur.
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Myles
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As Clark has pointed out, this is an environmentally fatal solution. You may be right that winter temps are in the 70's during the winter, but thousands or more species of marine life depend on the warm ocean waters of the gulf during the summer. Many fish and crustations, including the spiny lobster, migrate during the summer months from the warm, deep, waters of the GOM and Caribbean Sea to the now warm waters of the coast. Not only would you disrupt their migratory patterns, you would most likely change their whole environment. As the deep waters would be cooler, along with the suface temps.
This plan would probably induce thousands of extinctions throughout the Atlantic tropics and possibly throughout the mid-latitudes, as you are displacing where the naturally heated waters goes; From the gulf stream, up the US east coast and all the way to Europe; Great Britain to be more specific. If you stop this heat transfer you would more then likely(I put it at 90%) cause another ice age. Its happened before, the gulf stream shut down and temperatures plummeted.
Cyclonekiller, you seem to be missing the point. Lower temps will cause less hurricanes, or no hurricanes all; there's no question about it. It's all the other implications that make it unfeasible. Environmentally you would disrupt all of the at Atlantic ocean, if not the whole ocean, costing far more in money, and life, then any hurricane.
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cyclonekiller
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No I think everyone is confused in that the tunnels are on all the time. That is not true. The deep water coming from below can be turned off after the storm has passed and turned on 5 days prior to the strom arriving to the East coast. I think the forcasting of Hurricanes 5 days out if they are going to hit are pretty good nowadays. If you cool the water down by the Keys and let the cooler water flow North there would be enough cooling to protect the whole East coast. Then you just simply close the gate and the cooling no longer occurs.However, the electrical generators don't stop running because the power to run them is near the surface seperate from the cooling phase of the operation.
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Myles
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Ok, now there is a few more problems. One, how much water do you think these pipes are going to be able to move and at what rate? Do you think that these tubes will 'pump' enough water to cause a significant change in temp? Since you obviously do, please post some numbers so that they can be verified. There is a lot of water moving and mixing from the Keys up the East Coast, its going to take A LOT of cool water to lower its temperature significantly.
Next, how will these electrical generator pumps create power if there is no water flowing through during the times that they are not operating? You say because they are close to the surface, but that doesn't explain where the generated electricity comes from. Please elaborate more.
I think this is intriguing, so please, continue with your ideas.
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cyclonekiller
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First off they are not generator pumps they are hydroelectric generators at the surface where the Gulfstream current flows to the north past them at 6 to 7 mph thus turning the impellars and generating the power.
I calculate each tunnel will move 330,000,000 cubic feet of water per hour through them and exiting the tunnel at 5 mph. This should be enough water to generate near 50 megawatts of power per tunnel. With 1500 tunnels that is a staggering 75,000 mega watts of pure clean energy and would curb greenhouse gasses to some extent.
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Myles
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Umm...330 billion cubic feet per hour for one tube? You realize that is roughly 91,000 cubic feet per second? How large of a diameter do you think one of these things would be?
Next question....you have a figure of 5mph in there. Would this be the rate at which the water flows from the bottom to the surface, or which the gulf stream flows at ahead? However, what really matters, is what happens when you move enough water from the bottom of the ocean to the surface so that the gulf stream shuts down all together? You must realize that as the gulf stream moves north, it interacts with the cool Labrador current in the northern latitudes. This mix of warm and cool water currents causes the currents to behave in a certain fashion. What do you think is going to happen when the cool water you release into the gulf stream cools faster then normal up the east coast and interacts with the very cold water of the north? I'm not sure, but I certainly don’t want to test any theories.
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cyclonekiller
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That is 330 million not billion. This is about 1/30 of the total flow of the Gulfstream. Also, since the flow is going in the same direction as the gulfstream we only have to account for a one mile per hour loss af speed of the water going through the tunnel due to frictional and verticle lift losses through the tunnel. Only 1/30 of total amout of the Gulf stream is flowing through the tunnels at any given time.There are more frictional losses in the Gulfstream due to ships traveling through it every day. So little effect if any to the Gulfstream will occur . This is well worth the investment if it can save lifes and 200 billon in damages per storm. The tunnels restore the balance to planets warming problem caused by greenhouse gasses and at the same time privide power to 22 million people and sealife loves them.
Edited by cyclonekiller (Wed Nov 09 2005 11:06 AM)
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Myles
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You are correct, it was late and counld't see. However, you're still not providing any data here, you spewing numbers with nothing to back them up. Math please! Plus, the major point I'm trying to make is that any disruption in the gulf stream could cuase far worse problems then we have now. Not friction, but temp differences could completely change how the gulf stream flows, or if it flows as all.
You also say that these fix the problem caused by global warming. This one thing is going fix all of global warming? There is a lot of stuff contributing to global warming, if it is even true. This only changes the temps of the water, there are still greenhouse gases from fossil fuels and other carbon emmisions, you think these pipes can rewind all that?
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cyclonekiller
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Ok here is the math it is well established.
Pascals principle:
F1 is the force of the gulfstream exerts on the mouth of the tunnel at depth.
http://www.scientia.org/cadonline/Physics/fluids/pascal.ASP
Bernoulli's principle:
A negative pressure is created when the gulfstream ruhes pass the exit of the tunnel near the surface.
http://theory.uwinnipeg.ca/mod_tech/node68.html
All I did was combine both principles together to make the thing work with the tunnel.
Edited by cyclonekiller (Wed Nov 09 2005 05:32 PM)
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Brit
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This tunnel idea is very intresting but after thinking about the reprocussions, I reckon it wouid it would get very cold here in the uk. As we rely on the gulfs heat.
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cyclonekiller
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no need to worry it is only on for five to seven days then the flow is cut off by closing a gate.
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Myles
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Thats the problem, for 5-7days you completly change how the gulf stream works. That could completly change it forever.
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Myles
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One more thing, I dont want to discredit your resources, but the bernoulli's principle page says... Quote:
If you know that a hurricane is coming it is therefore better to open as many windows as possible, to equalize the pressure inside and out.
Thats not the brightest thing to do, that will get your roof blown off.
edit: the best thing to do if you know a hurricane is coming is to clean up, board up, then get the hell outta dodge
Edited by Myles (Wed Nov 09 2005 09:16 PM)
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cyclonekiller
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The gulfstream won't stop flowing because the Earth would have to stop spinnig for that to happen.
The numbers can vary greatly for the tunnels depending on the size of them. Until I figure out the size of them I will not give any numbers yet. I'll let you do some numbers though. Estimate the tunnel opening at the surface to be 200 feet wide and 50 feet tall with the current coming out at 5 mph and see how many cubic feet of water per hour exit the tunnel. Then calculate how many MWs this can produce?
Edited by cyclonekiller (Wed Nov 09 2005 11:51 PM)
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