Current Radar or Satellite Image

Flhurricane.com - Central Florida Hurricane Center - Tracking Storms since 1995Hurricanes Without the Hype! Since 1995


The Atlantic is quiet
Days since last H. Landfall - US: Any 44 (Milton) , Major: 44 (Milton) Florida - Any: 44 (Milton) Major: 44 (Milton)
 


News Talkback >> 2005 News Talkbacks

Clark
Meteorologist


Reged:
Posts: 1710
The long, strange ride continues
      Mon Oct 10 2005 11:19 PM

Well, as Stacy Stewart said in the 11p Vince discussion, the long, strange ride continues. Vince remains as a classified tropical cyclone with winds at 45mph based upon ship observations and enhanced convection on the east side of the storm. Located at 9.5W, it is the first system to be classified as a tropical cyclone in this basin to the east of 10W (not including the unclassified storm in the S. Atlantic near Congo in 1991). It is also the first storm to be making landfall in Portgual. If it maintains a more easterly heading in the short-term, it may even make it to the Mediterranean Sea; however, with the strong front/trough approaching from the west, it's more likely to end up just inland across Spain over the coming day.

Vince is yet another reminder that tropical cyclones do not always form from tropical waves over >26C waters. It's not something that redefines the tropical cyclone paradigm; in fact, it's formation is similar to both of those South Atlantic tropical cyclones (1991 and 2004). All three storms can be explained using our theories for tropical cyclone development -- the idea of the efficiency of a Carnot cycle as depicted by a hurricane is based upon sea surface temperatures and temperatures at the outflow layer/tropopause. This efficiency goes into the maximum potential intensity calculation (http://www.wxmaps.org/pix/hurpot.html) which, believe it or not, states that a significant tropical cyclone could form and maintain itself across that region toward Portgual/Morocco. While it is rare to see a storm form in such cold SSTs (~25C or less throughout), it is not impossible...nor is it impossible for such a system to acquire at least a weak low-level warm core.

Vince formed from an upper-level area of low pressure that slid to the southeast out of the mid-latitude pattern and became cut-off. This upper-level low induced (action at a distance) a surface circulation just west of the Madeira Islands; through time, the upper-level low weakened, leaving behind the surface circulation in a favorable upper-level environment for development. The initially cold-core surface low acquired a warm-core structure -- the microwave imager data from UWisconsin shows this pretty well and the operational model data show this to a lesser degree -- through the so-called WISHE tropical cyclone development mechanism.

This WISHE -- wind-induced surface heat exchange -- mechanism states that as you get winds impacting the ocean's surface, heat and moisture are extracted from the upper ocean. The convection associated with the system and the associated rising motion serve to transport this energy upward (note that it is not the convection itself that drives the heating within the storm!) where the accumulation of energy at upper levels maintains the storm, builds the warm core, and, through meteorological principles, helps to intensify the system. We saw the system acquire a warm-core, later develop an eye, and then weaken -- all like we see with tropical cyclones! The only difference is the unique location and underlying circumstances.

Such events are so rare, leading them to be nearly impossible to predict. While we have records of a few, there are likely hundreds more we've missed because we couldn't or were not looking for such systems. Whenever the model guidance suggests something might cut-off in a region marginally favorable -- even if it is out of our normal paradigms for tropical cyclone development -- it might just be worth keeping an eye on, just in case the unexpected does happen. At the very least, it can help you better understand how normal mid-latitude cyclones evolve. I should note that these systems are the types of systems Jack Beven at the NHC absolutely loves...he must've been pinching himself when this one popped up (and I mean that in a good way)!

Nevertheless, it's always a good idea to think outside the box -- but it's also reassuring to know that our tropical cyclone development theories explain such a development & transition to a warm-core system quite well. Otherwise, we'd have to think about redeveloping our TC development theories!

Enjoy Vince while it lasts -- you may not see another storm quite like it for a long time to come. 10W in the Atlantic basin has so little ocean -- and even less that is favorable for development even under the outside-the-box principle (in terms of MPI) -- that it's very tough to see something like this even happen.

In other parts of the basin much, much closer to home, ex-STD 22 is about to get caught up in the convergence zone/trough hanging out just off of the US east coast and is not likely to redevelop. I'm watching that area very near Puerto Rico, however, on the periphery of that big upper low. There's some model guidance supporting something getting going there and as it moves into a more favorable position with respect to the upper low, we could see something spin up later this week. I'd put it at 50/50 we finish the Atlantic list sometime this week...and overall better than 50/50 that we see Alpha sometime this season. This is the wacky season, where storms don't necessarily have the typical tropical origins, but with very few exceptions -- Lee is the one I can think of -- everything has been a legit tropical cyclone. Accumulated TC energy is going to be skewed with Rita, Katrina, Emily, and Dennis, but the total number of TC days is going to be relatively low for what one might expect for 20+ storms.

More later...having some trouble with the site lately, so updates on my end might be slow in coming.

Post Extras Print Post   Remind Me!     Notify Moderator


Entire topic
Subject Posted by Posted on
* Hurricane Vince forms in the Far Eastern Atlantic MikeCAdministrator Mon Oct 10 2005 11:19 PM
. * * The long, strange ride continues Clark   Mon Oct 10 2005 11:19 PM
. * * Something new? Clark   Tue Oct 11 2005 04:27 PM
. * * weirded out yet? HanKFranK   Tue Oct 11 2005 12:47 AM
. * * Re: weirded out yet? doug   Tue Oct 11 2005 01:26 PM
. * * Speaking Greek tpratch   Tue Oct 11 2005 06:56 AM
. * * Re: weirded out yet? Storm Hunter   Tue Oct 11 2005 01:48 AM
. * * Its official - Europes first on record Rich B   Tue Oct 11 2005 04:47 AM
. * * Re: Its official - Europes first on record dave foster   Tue Oct 11 2005 12:13 PM
. * * Re: Its official - Europes first on record dave foster   Tue Oct 11 2005 02:24 PM
. * * Re: Its official - Europes first on record meranto   Wed Oct 12 2005 07:47 AM
. * * Re: Its official - Europes first on record dave foster   Wed Oct 12 2005 02:10 PM
. * * Re: Its official - Europes first on record Rick on boat in Mobile   Wed Oct 12 2005 08:09 AM
. * * Re: Its official - Europes first on record Cindi   Wed Oct 12 2005 10:26 AM
. * * Re: Its official - Europes first on record FlaMommy   Wed Oct 12 2005 12:39 PM
. * * Re: Its official - Europes first on record typhoon_tip   Wed Oct 12 2005 02:30 PM
. * * a few obs HanKFranK   Wed Oct 12 2005 03:59 PM
. * * Re: a few obs typhoon_tip   Wed Oct 12 2005 05:08 PM
. * * Re: Its official - Europes first on record GuppieGrouper   Wed Oct 12 2005 08:34 AM
. * * Re: Its official - Europes first on record Margie   Wed Oct 12 2005 11:15 AM
. * * quieting down HanKFranK   Wed Oct 12 2005 10:32 AM
. * * Question for you-all Beach   Wed Oct 12 2005 02:12 PM
. * * Re: quieting down Myles   Wed Oct 12 2005 11:13 AM
. * * Re: quieting down Clark   Wed Oct 12 2005 03:57 PM
. * * Re: quieting down doug   Wed Oct 12 2005 12:07 PM
. * * And they say... Beach   Tue Oct 11 2005 07:27 AM
. * * Re: And they say... GuppieGrouper   Tue Oct 11 2005 09:28 AM
. * * Re: And they say... Adam   Tue Oct 11 2005 01:34 PM
. * * Re: And they say... GuppieGrouper   Tue Oct 11 2005 06:31 PM
. * * Re: And they say... HanKFranK   Tue Oct 11 2005 06:54 PM
. * * Re: And they say... Margie   Tue Oct 11 2005 09:39 PM
. * * Something Local Beach   Wed Oct 12 2005 07:37 AM
. * * Re: And they say... typhoon_tip   Tue Oct 11 2005 07:08 PM
. * * Re:MODELS HURRICANELONNY   Tue Oct 11 2005 06:47 PM
. * * winter website tashina   Tue Oct 11 2005 04:44 PM
. * * Re: And they say... ChessieStorm   Tue Oct 11 2005 11:43 AM
. * * Re: Its official - Europes first on record SMOKE   Tue Oct 11 2005 06:51 AM
. * * Re: Hurricane Vince forms in the Far Eastern Atlantic Domino   Mon Oct 10 2005 08:07 AM
. * * Re: Hurricane Vince forms in the Far Eastern Atlantic Ed DunhamAdministrator   Mon Oct 10 2005 10:46 AM
. * * Re: Hurricane Vince forms in the Far Eastern Atlantic weatherwatcher999   Mon Oct 10 2005 11:11 AM
. * * Re: Hurricane Vince forms in the Far Eastern Atlantic josef   Mon Oct 10 2005 11:36 AM
. * * Re: Hurricane Vince forms in the Far Eastern Atlantic bulletdodger   Sun Oct 09 2005 10:47 PM
. * * Season danielwAdministrator   Mon Oct 10 2005 04:53 AM
. * * Re: Season josef   Mon Oct 10 2005 05:08 AM
. * * Re: Season josef   Mon Oct 10 2005 05:20 AM
. * * Re: Hurricane Vince forms in the Far Eastern Atlantic josef   Sun Oct 09 2005 06:39 PM
. * * Re: Hurricane Vince forms in the Far Eastern Atlantic Margie   Sun Oct 09 2005 07:51 PM
. * * Re: Hurricane Vince forms in the Far Eastern Atlantic weatherwatcher999   Sun Oct 09 2005 08:19 PM
. * * Re: Hurricane Vince forms in the Far Eastern Atlantic dave foster   Sun Oct 09 2005 06:50 PM
. * * Re: Hurricane Vince forms in the Far Eastern Atlantic josef   Sun Oct 09 2005 07:09 PM
. * * Re: Hurricane Vince forms in the Far Eastern Atlantic Hugh   Sun Oct 09 2005 06:46 PM
. * * Re: Hurricane Vince forms in the Far Eastern Atlantic josef   Sun Oct 09 2005 06:54 PM
. * * Re: Hurricane Vince forms in the Far Eastern Atlantic Hugh   Sun Oct 09 2005 07:06 PM
. * * Re: Hurricane Vince forms in the Far Eastern Atlantic josef   Sun Oct 09 2005 07:16 PM
. * * Re: Hurricane Vince forms in the Far Eastern Atlantic danielwAdministrator   Sun Oct 09 2005 08:24 PM
. * * Re: Hurricane Vince forms in the Far Eastern Atlantic dave foster   Sun Oct 09 2005 08:46 PM
. * * vince/22L/94L HanKFranK   Sun Oct 09 2005 10:22 PM
. * * Re: vince/22L/94L Steve H1   Mon Oct 10 2005 08:05 AM
. * * Re: vince/22L/94L dave foster   Mon Oct 10 2005 11:04 AM
. * * Re: vince/22L/94L OrlandoDan   Mon Oct 10 2005 06:33 PM
. * * Re: vince/22L/94L dave foster   Mon Oct 10 2005 06:43 PM
. * * Re: vince/22L/94L Steve H1   Mon Oct 10 2005 11:57 AM
. * * Re: vince/22L/94L emackl   Mon Oct 10 2005 05:05 PM
. * * Re: vince/22/94L ... 97L? Bloodstar   Mon Oct 10 2005 05:43 PM
. * * Re: vince/22/94L ... 97L? emackl   Mon Oct 10 2005 07:21 PM
. * * Re: vince/22/94L ... 97L? Hugh   Mon Oct 10 2005 10:53 PM
. * * Re: vince/22L/94L josef   Mon Oct 10 2005 05:16 PM
. * * Re: Hurricane Vince forms in the Far Eastern Atlantic Margie   Sun Oct 09 2005 08:38 PM
. * * Re: Hurricane Vince forms in the Far Eastern Atlantic Lysis   Sun Oct 09 2005 07:29 PM
. * * Re: Tropical Storm Vince forms in the Far Eastern Atlantic Beaumont, TX   Sun Oct 09 2005 02:06 PM
. * * Re: Tropical Storm Vince forms in the Far Eastern Atlantic Thunderbird12   Sun Oct 09 2005 05:48 PM
. * * Re: Tropical Storm Vince forms in the Far Eastern Atlantic Lysis   Sun Oct 09 2005 02:21 PM
. * * Re: Tropical Storm Vince forms in the Far Eastern Atlantic Hugh   Sun Oct 09 2005 11:12 AM
. * * Re: Tropical Storm Vince forms in the Far Eastern Atlantic typhoon_tip   Sun Oct 09 2005 11:53 AM
. * * Re: Tropical Storm Vince forms in the Far Eastern Atlantic Clark   Sun Oct 09 2005 01:37 PM
. * * Re: Tropical Storm Vince forms in the Far Eastern Atlantic typhoon_tip   Sun Oct 09 2005 07:41 PM
. * * Re: Tropical Storm Vince forms in the Far Eastern Atlantic typhoon_tip   Sun Oct 09 2005 07:50 PM
. * * Re: Tropical Storm Vince forms in the Far Eastern Atlantic Margie   Sun Oct 09 2005 06:37 PM
. * * Re: Tropical Storm Vince forms in the Far Eastern Atlantic Old Sailor   Sun Oct 09 2005 03:28 PM
. * * Re: Tropical Storm Vince forms in the Far Eastern Atlantic La Nimo   Sun Oct 09 2005 07:33 PM
. * * Re: Tropical Storm Vince forms in the Far Eastern Atlantic Old Sailor   Sun Oct 09 2005 08:32 PM
. * * Re: Tropical Storm Vince forms in the Far Eastern Atlantic Clark   Sun Oct 09 2005 03:57 PM
. * * Re: Tropical Storm Vince forms in the Far Eastern Atlantic Rabbit   Sun Oct 09 2005 04:47 PM
. * * Hurricane Vince Where!!!!!!!!!!!!! NONAME   Sun Oct 09 2005 04:53 PM
. * * Re: Hurricane Vince Where!!!!!!!!!!!!! dave foster   Sun Oct 09 2005 05:58 PM
. * * Re: Hurricane Vince Where!!!!!!!!!!!!! Lysis   Sun Oct 09 2005 06:31 PM
. * * Re: Hurricane Vince Where!!!!!!!!!!!!! Rich B   Sun Oct 09 2005 05:24 PM
. * * Re: Tropical Storm Vince forms in the Far Eastern Atlantic Rabbit   Sun Oct 09 2005 01:51 PM
. * * oddball HanKFranK   Sun Oct 09 2005 11:53 AM

Extra information
0 registered and 645 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  



Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled

Rating: *****
Thread views: 26504

Rate this thread

Jump to

Note: This is NOT an official page. It is run by weather hobbyists and should not be used as a replacement for official sources. 
CFHC's main servers are currently located at Hostdime.com in Orlando, FL.
Image Server Network thanks to Mike Potts and Amazon Web Services. If you have static file hosting space that allows dns aliasing contact us to help out! Some Maps Provided by:
Great thanks to all who donated and everyone who uses the site as well. Site designed for 800x600+ resolution
When in doubt, take the word of the National Hurricane Center