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News Talkback >> 2007 News Talkbacks

Clark
Meteorologist


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Posts: 1710
Re: Is the Offshore Storm Subtropical?
      Wed May 09 2007 12:11 AM

Yikes, I've been slipping on posting for this one, especially since it's right up my alley!

From the outset, I gave this one about a 30% shot of getting to the subtropical level and 10% to the tropical level. My reasoning was mostly guided by the cyclone phase space analyses, as I have been following severe weather much more so than anything tropics-related lately, but was governed by the various model solutions for the storm in the phase space. Basically, they were (and still are) very similar to my mental set of "null case" tropical transition cases, where the cold core representation goes very close to a low-level warm core but sorta fades away. It showed a tightening of the wind field but ultimate decay of the storm, whereas the case of systems that completed tropical transition would more or less maintain themselves but go back cold-core in the phase space. It's tough to get across in words without having any pictures to help, but I don't have access to old phase space analyses of Epsilon (2005) -- probably the best case -- to really show this that well.

This system has and had many of the parameters necessary to complete transition but lacked the vertical temperature differential to get the tropical transition process started. Basically, part of the theory on how tropical cyclones develop is based upon a "heating efficiency" based on the difference in temperatures from the ocean's surface to the upper atmosphere, with a greater difference being better. There is a threshold for getting the engine going, to coin a term, and I don't think that it has been met here.

Satellite analyses show that the storm has never quite separated from its frontal structures nor has it shed the markings of an extratropical low. In particular, a cold front-type boundary is still evident to the east of the storm (http://www.ssd.noaa.gov/goes/east/nwatl/avn-l.jpg -- time sensitive) and a descending dry air jet is present south and west of the storm (http://www.ssd.noaa.gov/goes/east/nwatl/wv-l.jpg -- also time sensitive). These are both hallmarks of extratropical systems. Convection in the inner core has become better organized over the past day or two but is still not very well organized nor present near the center of the storm. The splotchy nature of it suggests that it is more of a slightly deeper form of the open cell (dubbed because of how it looks like numerous scattered cells) convection common with extratropical cyclones.

Essentially, while it has taken many of the steps toward becoming a subtropical or tropical system, it hasn't quite completed them all. The radius of maximum winds has tightened, perhaps in response to the slightly better convective organization -- particularly that ring evident about 200 miles from the center of the storm in the images above --and the system may have briefly developed a lower level warm core. But, it never developed that aloft, thanks to not getting organized enough convection-wise (as I believe HF alluded to) and now is more likely in the filling, or weakening, stages of its lifecycle. SSTs cool from here to the coast and land is just ahead.

It basically is an oddly-traveling occluded mid-latitude cyclone (say that three times fast!) that will go down as an interesting oddity and early precursor to what could be an active 2007 season.

Hope everyone's ready for the ride!

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Subject Posted by Posted on
* Is the Offshore Storm Subtropical? MikeCAdministrator Wed May 09 2007 12:11 AM
. * * Re: interesting obs on smoke and the storm NewWatcher   Wed May 09 2007 10:47 AM
. * * interesting obs on smoke and the storm LoisCane   Wed May 09 2007 10:38 AM
. * * Re: It's trying, it really is.... ChessieStorm   Wed May 09 2007 10:27 AM
. * * Re: It's trying, it really is.... vineyardsaker   Wed May 09 2007 10:23 AM
. * * Re: It's trying, it really is.... AdrianInFlorida   Wed May 09 2007 10:19 AM
. * * Re: It's trying, it really is.... vineyardsaker   Wed May 09 2007 10:18 AM
. * * Re: It's trying, it really is.... ftlaudbob   Wed May 09 2007 10:17 AM
. * * Re: It's trying, it really is.... MadDog   Wed May 09 2007 10:06 AM
. * * Re: It's trying, it really is.... nl   Wed May 09 2007 10:02 AM
. * * Re: Is the Offshore Storm Subtropical? HCW   Wed May 09 2007 09:59 AM
. * * Re: It's trying, it really is.... vineyardsaker   Wed May 09 2007 09:55 AM
. * * ANDREA NewWatcher   Wed May 09 2007 09:53 AM
. * * Re: Is the Offshore Storm Subtropical? cieldumort   Wed May 09 2007 09:50 AM
. * * Re: Subtropical Storm Andrea Hurricane29   Wed May 09 2007 09:17 AM
. * * Re: Subtropical Storm Andrea allan   Wed May 09 2007 09:14 AM
. * * Subtropical Storm Andrea cieldumort   Wed May 09 2007 09:07 AM
. * * Re: It's trying, it really is.... cieldumort   Wed May 09 2007 08:45 AM
. * * Re: It's trying, it really is.... dem05   Wed May 09 2007 08:30 AM
. * * Re: It's trying, it really is.... Hugh   Wed May 09 2007 07:58 AM
. * * Re: It's trying, it really is.... MikeCAdministrator   Wed May 09 2007 07:17 AM
. * * Re: It's trying, it really is.... cieldumort   Wed May 09 2007 02:58 AM
. * * It's trying, it really is.... Bloodstar   Wed May 09 2007 02:22 AM
. * * Re: Is the Offshore Storm Subtropical? scottsvb   Wed May 09 2007 01:42 AM
. * * Re: Is the Offshore Storm Subtropical? cieldumort   Wed May 09 2007 01:11 AM
. * * Re: Is the Offshore Storm Subtropical? Clark   Wed May 09 2007 12:11 AM
. * * Re: subtropical storm andrea Bloodstar   Wed May 09 2007 12:10 AM
. * * Re: subtropical storm andrea BillD   Wed May 09 2007 12:04 AM
. * * Re: subtropical storm andrea dem05   Tue May 08 2007 11:47 PM
. * * Re: subtropical storm andrea Hugh   Tue May 08 2007 11:24 PM
. * * Re: subtropical storm andrea dem05   Tue May 08 2007 11:21 PM
. * * Re: subtropical storm andrea BillD   Tue May 08 2007 10:48 PM
. * * Re: subtropical storm andrea Doombot!   Tue May 08 2007 10:47 PM
. * * Re: subtropical storm andrea dem05   Tue May 08 2007 10:17 PM
. * * Re: could there be a storm surge from this system?! dem05   Tue May 08 2007 10:11 PM
. * * subtropical storm andrea HanKFranK   Tue May 08 2007 09:58 PM
. * * Re: could there be a storm surge from this system?! MikeCAdministrator   Tue May 08 2007 09:23 PM
. * * Re: could there be a storm surge from this system?! cieldumort   Tue May 08 2007 09:11 PM
. * * Re: could there be a storm surge from this system?! nc_wx_watcher   Tue May 08 2007 09:06 PM
. * * Re: could there be a storm surge from this system?! Hugh   Tue May 08 2007 06:45 PM
. * * Re: could there be a storm surge from this system?! nc_wx_watcher   Tue May 08 2007 06:43 PM
. * * Re: could there be a storm surge from this system?! Lamar-Plant City   Tue May 08 2007 06:19 PM
. * * Re: could there be a storm surge from this system?! vineyardsaker   Tue May 08 2007 06:11 PM
. * * Re: could there be a storm surge from this system?! vineyardsaker   Tue May 08 2007 06:05 PM
. * * Re: could there be a storm surge from this system?! Lamar-Plant City   Tue May 08 2007 06:03 PM
. * * Re: could there be a storm surge from this system?! Rich B   Tue May 08 2007 05:32 PM
. * * Re: could there be a storm surge from this system?! Ricreig   Tue May 08 2007 05:17 PM
. * * could there be a storm surge from this system?! vineyardsaker   Tue May 08 2007 05:09 PM
. * * Re: so i guess we sit and wait Ricreig   Tue May 08 2007 04:57 PM
. * * Re: so i guess we sit and wait Lamar-Plant City   Tue May 08 2007 04:43 PM
. * * Re: so i guess we sit and wait madmumbler   Tue May 08 2007 04:41 PM
. * * Re: so i guess we sit and wait cieldumort   Tue May 08 2007 04:33 PM
. * * so i guess we sit and wait LoisCane   Tue May 08 2007 04:26 PM
. * * Re: Is the Offshore Storm Subtropical? hurricaneguy   Tue May 08 2007 04:08 PM
. * * Re: Is the Offshore Storm Subtropical? hurricaneguy   Tue May 08 2007 04:02 PM
. * * Re: Is the Offshore Storm Subtropical? weather_wise911   Tue May 08 2007 04:01 PM
. * * Re: Is the Offshore Storm Subtropical? Hurricane29   Tue May 08 2007 03:48 PM
. * * Re: Is the Offshore Storm Subtropical? HCW   Tue May 08 2007 03:19 PM
. * * Re: Is the Offshore Storm Subtropical? MikeCAdministrator   Tue May 08 2007 02:54 PM
. * * Re: gale 90L rookie   Tue May 08 2007 02:44 PM
. * * Re: gale 90L Ricreig   Tue May 08 2007 02:41 PM
. * * Re: gale 90L madmumbler   Tue May 08 2007 02:38 PM
. * * Re: gale 90L rookie   Tue May 08 2007 02:36 PM
. * * Re: gale 90L madmumbler   Tue May 08 2007 02:36 PM
. * * Re: gale 90L Ed in Va   Tue May 08 2007 02:31 PM
. * * Re: gale 90L Hurricane29   Tue May 08 2007 02:13 PM
. * * Re: gale 90L MikeCAdministrator   Tue May 08 2007 02:02 PM
. * * Re: gale 90L Storm Hunter   Tue May 08 2007 01:10 PM
. * * Re: gale 90L rmbjoe1954   Tue May 08 2007 12:56 PM
. * * Re: gale 90L Rich B   Tue May 08 2007 12:45 PM
. * * Re: gale 90L Bloodstar   Tue May 08 2007 12:45 PM
. * * Re: gale 90L Storm Hunter   Tue May 08 2007 11:39 AM
. * * system has every name but subtropical, needs a name LoisCane   Tue May 08 2007 11:38 AM
. * * Re: gale 90L madmumbler   Tue May 08 2007 11:26 AM
. * * Re: gale 90L madmumbler   Tue May 08 2007 11:24 AM
. * * Re: gale 90L allan   Tue May 08 2007 10:26 AM
. * * Re: gale 90L Hootowl   Tue May 08 2007 09:38 AM
. * * Re: gale 90L rookie   Tue May 08 2007 09:30 AM
. * * Re: gale 90L allan   Tue May 08 2007 09:14 AM
. * * Re: gale 90L Hugh   Tue May 08 2007 08:05 AM
. * * Re: gale 90L HanKFranK   Tue May 08 2007 12:12 AM
. * * Re: gale 90L Lamar-Plant City   Mon May 07 2007 11:34 PM
. * * Re: gale 90L PutnamGator   Mon May 07 2007 10:57 PM
. * * Re: gale 90L Storm Hunter   Mon May 07 2007 10:52 PM
. * * Re: gale 90L HCW   Mon May 07 2007 10:45 PM
. * * Re: gale 90L ChessieStorm   Mon May 07 2007 10:31 PM
. * * Re: Nor'Easter Storm near North Carolina Headed Towards Florida dem05   Mon May 07 2007 10:23 PM
. * * Re: Nor'Easter Storm near North Carolina Headed Towards Florida obxadventurers   Mon May 07 2007 09:37 PM
. * * Re: gale 90L danielwAdministrator   Mon May 07 2007 09:34 PM
. * * Re: gale 90L Storm Hunter   Mon May 07 2007 09:32 PM
. * * Re: gale 90L dem05   Mon May 07 2007 09:26 PM
. * * Re: gale 90L Hugh   Mon May 07 2007 08:21 PM
. * * Re: gale 90L ChessieStorm   Mon May 07 2007 06:38 PM
. * * gale 90L HanKFranK   Mon May 07 2007 06:03 PM
. * * Re: Nor'Easter Storm near North Carolina Headed Towards Florida allan   Mon May 07 2007 05:27 PM
. * * Re: Nor'Easter Storm near North Carolina Headed Towards Florida vineyardsaker   Mon May 07 2007 05:18 PM
. * * two loops LoisCane   Mon May 07 2007 03:21 PM
. * * Re: Nor'Easter Storm near North Carolina Headed Towards Florida Hootowl   Mon May 07 2007 02:32 PM
. * * Re: Nor'Easter Storm near North Carolina Headed Towards Florida Lamar-Plant City   Mon May 07 2007 02:30 PM
. * * Re: Nor'Easter Storm near North Carolina Headed Towards Florida Storm Hunter   Mon May 07 2007 02:23 PM
. * * Re: Nor'Easter Storm near North Carolina Headed Towards Florida cyclone_head   Mon May 07 2007 02:12 PM
. * * Re: Nor'Easter Storm near North Carolina Headed Towards Florida Storm Hunter   Mon May 07 2007 01:56 PM
. * * Re: Nor'Easter Storm near North Carolina Headed Towards Florida cyclone_head   Mon May 07 2007 01:53 PM
. * * Re: Nor'Easter Storm near North Carolina Headed Towards Florida cyclone_head   Mon May 07 2007 01:38 PM
. * * Re: Is there a chance it could become a subtropical? Lamar-Plant City   Mon May 07 2007 12:38 PM
. * * Re: Is there a chance it could become a subtropical? vineyardsaker   Mon May 07 2007 12:29 PM
. * * Re: Is there a chance it could become a subtropical? StormHound   Mon May 07 2007 12:07 PM
. * * Is there a chance it could become a subtropical? LoisCane   Mon May 07 2007 11:32 AM
. * * Re: Nor'Easter Storm near North Carolina Headed Towards Florida Lamar-Plant City   Mon May 07 2007 11:01 AM
. * * Re: Nor'Easter Storm near North Carolina Headed Towards Florida AdrianInFlorida   Mon May 07 2007 10:22 AM
. * * Re: Nor'Easter Storm near North Carolina Headed Towards Florida vineyardsaker   Mon May 07 2007 09:34 AM
. * * Re: Nor'Easter Storm near North Carolina Headed Towards Florida NewWatcher   Mon May 07 2007 09:03 AM
. * * Re: Nor'Easter Storm near North Carolina Headed Towards Florida HCW   Mon May 07 2007 08:30 AM
. * * Re: Nor'Easter Storm near North Carolina Headed Towards Florida AdrianInFlorida   Mon May 07 2007 08:23 AM
. * * Re: Nor'Easter Storm near North Carolina Headed Towards Florida Rich B   Mon May 07 2007 07:59 AM

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